Brexit anybody?

Honour indeed !!!

 

???

Whats Brighton got to do with it?

 

Well go find the atlas and you'll find out once you can answer the question I posed !!!

 

You been drinking or something?

 

No, but since you can't find an atlas, I'm beginning to wonder whether you know what one actually is.

 

Not really, since it pretty much already dominates the news & pretty much all heated political debate.

 

VG wasn't calling YOU Welsh.
He was imitating you talking to Booze.

 

Which I think he overlooked because he's had a few brandys

 

Thing is leavers do not really have any great arguments – and these days seem to just spend their time in sneering, sniping and futile point scoring.

They have a general viewpoint which is Brexit but everything they have put up as reasons for that stance has fallen flat when looked at, all of them.

For example one argument put up by leavers is that the EU has changed that it was once only about trade and now covers other things which the UK didn’t sign up for.

Well as explained many times that isn’t true, anyone looking into it would know that the UK was signing up to the ‘European project’ and ‘ever closer union’ That the whole idea of the European project was for ‘ever closer union’ “It is found in the Preamble to the 1957 treaty that set up what became the EU [and] on at least six occasions the UK has signed up to it (firstly in becoming a member, and then agreeing to subsequent treaty changes)”

 

You keep saying leavers have no arguments, Mayvern gave a nice little summary in another thread. There are 5 right there from Mayvern

All I hear from you Balbus is leavers have no arguments, whilst never giving any of your own

Except this fuzzy wuzzy concept of the European Project.....and on this occasion an army the UK wouldnt have control over is the way to unite people?????

 

Revoke article 50

The thread in question

 

As said we get a lot of bluster from the leavers but little of substance I’m happy to critic substance but it is hard to do anything with hot (and rather stale) hot air.

But maybe someone should read the whole of this thread first it is so tedious having to repeat things

Brexit

 

No worry's Bulby my friend.
Tell me about it!
But then you are so good at repeating yourself that I would like to give you a medal.
The shite repeating asshole medal!

No offence meant of course!

 

As said we get a lot of bluster from the leavers but little of substance

 

Mayvern’s six (not 5) arguments from the other thread

1 The referendum result said LEAVE so we should LEAVE.

2 If we stay the EU the bureaucracy with GROW like an uncontrolled cancer.

3 have to stop a European army.

4 Now our fisheries are controlled by the EU.

5 We are limited on what we can put in sausages, chocolate and other foods.

6 If we can quit paying the EU BILIONS of POUNDS every year we can properly fund the NHS.

Well I’d first point out that all these arguments have already been raised and found wanting, they are just repeats of things that have already fallen flat when first raised.

 

1 The referendum result said LEAVE so we should LEAVE.

The myth that all the people that voted for Brexit voted for the same thing is one that some leavers are still pushing.

It also has to be remembered that it was very close the difference between leave and remain was 3.8 percent or 1.3 million in favour of Leave.

The problem with the first referendum - as has been explained many times in this thread - is that people had many differing views on what voting to the leave the EU actually meant (and for many it was a protest vote that had nothing to do with Europe)

IT WAS A SPLIT VOTE.

Many on the leave side didn’t know what kind of leave they were voting for

While ALL those that voted to remain knew they were voting to remain.

The other thing is that in the referendum even the leaver leadership ruled out a No Deal Brexit, they said time and again that would be bad and would never happen, it was always that they could get a ‘better deal’. The whole idea of a No Deal was called ‘project fear’ by the leaver leadership, no deal was something to be feared – in other words - to not be voted for.

Only later when the true complexities and pitfalls of a Brexit became clear and with it the realisation that any deal would be worse than the one we already had that the simplistic No Deal idea took root amongst those that wanted a simplistic answer, which they could shout but never defend.

And in conversations with people, what I’ve read and listened to since then and looking at what members of Parliament have indicated many of the people that might vote for a Theresa May deal and the majority that would for a single market and customs union deal would not vote for a No Deal (seeing it as dangerous)

The idea that a majority of Britain’s voted for a no deal Brexit is absurd

2 If we stay the EU the bureaucracy with GROW like an uncontrolled cancer.

There are 46,356 people employed across all EU institutions At first glance, these figures might seem quite high, particularly if we look at the commission. But for an administrative staff covering institutions serving over 500m people it’s a shoestring operation, especially when we compare it to civil services operating at the national, or even local levels. Compare this, for example, to the 33,477 people employed by Birmingham City Council, covering a population of 1.1m in 2015-16.

https://theconversation.com/how-many-people-work-for-the-eu-59702

On 31 March 2017, there were 332,800 Civil Service employees in England, 43,220 in Scotland, 32,440 in Wales and 3,760 in Northern Ireland.

UK population c60 million

412,220 civil servants

EU population c500 million

46,356 civil servants

3 have to stop a European army.

A European integrated army has long been a dream of the European project, I mean the European project was about trying to stop the wars that have often plagued Europe through greater union and what better way than having one European army. It has often been discussed but hasn’t really moved beyond that. And as many have pointed out we could have vetoed it.

4 Now our fisheries are controlled by the EU.

But does that actually help

Fisheries (0.12% of the UK economy) have been a powerful symbol for Brexiteers. They may now become one of the starkest examples of the folly of no deal.

British shellfish sales to the EU (mostly France and Spain) are worth £430m a year – more than a quarter of all UK fish exports by value. They are vital to small-scale fishermen in Scotland and the West Country. They will be devastated overnight if the UK loses paper-free access to the EU single market.

The promised instant bonanza for longer-distance British fishing fleets has also drifted into a fog bank.

A ‘Brexit bonanza’ for UK fishing? That’s a fishy tale with an unhappy ending | John Lichfield
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...-everyone-in-fishing-is-excited-about-brexit/


5 We are limited on what we can put in sausages, chocolate and other foods.

I’m not sure what is meant by this what things do Leavers want to put in sausages and chocolate that the EU has forbidden the UK to put in them?

6 If we can quit paying the EU BILIONS of POUNDS every year we can properly fund the NHS.

As for paying for EU membership well to repeat

I believe it cost somewhere close to 9 billion

But let’s put that in context - we spend:

145 billion on health

45 billion on defence

29 billion on transport

And 13 billion on overseas aid

We also contribute less (per head of population) than some other EU countries such as Germany.

For the 9 billion we get all the advantages of free trade with the EU members and with the EU trade deals with none EU countries along with a say in the regulations and policies set by the EU (unlike say Norway).

Some have put a figure of roughly £31bn-£92bn per year as the best estimate we have in terms of the additional value created to the UK economy through trade as a result of EU membership.

As to the NHS

The US has explained quite clearly that any trade deal with the US will mean the end of the NHS as a public body to be replaced with an the expensive and not universally covering US model.

The people that have pushed hardest for a no deal Brexit are neoliberals that are opposed to the NHS and have voted to starve it of funds.

 

You've got me curious now...

EDIT: I can't find a very good news source talking about this. The closest things were the Guardian for instance, with which I am unfamiliar. I think maybe Donald Trump said something like that...

It sounds like it would sort of violate sovereignty in my opinion. The NHS is kind of a big deal for Britain. I don't know why the U.S. would have its hands in that.

 

Soul

How do you think it would violate sovereignty?

It is about opening up of the NHS to private companies

Now the thing is that many neoliberals hate the NHS because it is a successful and popular public body and in neoliberal ideology that should not exist - it is complete affront to all neoliberal theories (private good public bad).

So successive neoliberal leaning governments have undermined it through trying to underfund it while opening it up to internal markets forces and demanding it become more ‘efficient’ (doing the same or more for less money) in the hope this drives down quality of services which has worked in many areas of the NHS (while the right wingers blame migrants for the problems that have arisen instead).

Many of those pushing hardest for a no deal Brexit are neoliberal types.

So under any US-UK deal, US big business will demand access to the tendering of health contracts, this has been explicitly said by the US ambassador and I think the neoliberal leavers will be happy to make that deal.

 

Because its desperate leaver nonsense Balbus just made up. And the Guardian is like the New York Times on acid

 

Leave 17,410,742 51.89%
Remain 16,141,241 48.11%

How is that any kind of retort? You are comparing all levels of UK government, local, devolved, crown, eu with only the 4th level of government that sits on top of all EU members that is for the Eu PArliament and Commission

You are trying to tell us there are only 46,000 civil servants for all levels of government for all the other 27 countries, there would be 10 times that number

Why the need for such obviously blatant misrepresenting tactics?......besides pure desperation

Heil! Mein Fuhrer

You are pretty much admitting there the UK fishing industry got decimated because of EU membership

They will go overnight from 20% of their stock to 100%, instantly quintupling their produce, jobs, and yes sales overnight

Sell to Norway, Japan and China. No one is going to buy the argument that France and Spain are going to put up with a shortage / instant price hike of shellfish for very long

The US has explained quite clearly has it? What a complete load of bullshit

Desperate leaver scaremongering nonsense

And as you pointed out there 9 billion is 5% of your NHS budget overnight