Revoke article 50

Remember this was about the information coming from each side of the debate

As a remainer I’m not trying to be evasive or refusing to explain my thinking I’m very happy to answer questions and address criticisms.

But the leavers seem to be the very opposite, they make up excuses why they can’t talk, they constantly evade or ignore, they out and out refuse to explain their thinking, they moan about even been asked questions and they dismiss criticisms without addressing them.

And their leaders cheat and lie and try to limit debate.

To go back to the second-hand car story i've posted before -

You go to one person who has the cars current MOT and log book, they can answer all your questions about the history of the car, clearly and distinctly, they let you look at the engine and anything else you want and are happy to give you a test drive.

And then there is another seller who has none of the paperwork (can give them to you later after you hand over the money) who refuses to answer any of your questions, will not allow you to look under the bonnet or check for rust, and says he doesn’t have the keys right now so can’t give you a test drive - but who keeps telling you very loudly that if you buy it it’s going to be a WONDERFUL because it’s a GREAT car, the BEST car, a FANTASTIC car’

Honestly which car would you most likely buy?

I mean many of the leavers here are trying to convince people that Brexit - even a hard Brexit - is going to be wonderful, great and fantastic, BUT seem unable to actually explain why.

But virtually all the evidence seems to be point to the fact Brexit is not a good idea even the government’s own analysis points to it not been.

So for no gains they can rationally explain and in the face of valid arguments pointing to a Brexit causing the UK and many of its people some considerable hurt they still want Brexit – WHY?

At this point we should just revoke article 50

 

I wanted to remain, but I do not want anything revoked now. If the country is going to go to hell for leaving, I want the leavers to witness that.. If we get through it better than expected, then fine. It's not the direction I like seeing the world go in, but at the same time I don't feel like fighting the current. I prefer to go with it and keep my values and opinions alive in whatever world we end up in.

 

I think we get your point

 

I can never tell! When the internet signal goes funny, if I assume it has posted it never has, and if I try to post again it double posts. Luckily I have delete button power.

 

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;
And all the clouds that lour'd upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths;
Our bruised arms hung up for monuments;
Our stern alarums changed to merry meetings,
Our dreadful marches to delightful measures.
Grim-visaged war hath smooth'd his wrinkled front;
And now, instead of mounting barbed steeds
To fright the souls of fearful adversaries,
He capers nimbly in a lady's chamber
To the lascivious pleasing of a lute.
But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,
Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time
Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,
And that so lamely and unfashionable
That dogs bark at me as I halt by them;
Why, I, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy my shadow in the sun
And descant on mine own deformity:
And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have I laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels and dreams,
To set my brother Clarence and the king
In deadly hate the one against the other:
And if King Edward be as true and just
As I am subtle, false and treacherous,
This day should Clarence closely be mew'd up,
About a prophecy, which says that 'G'
Of Edward's heirs the murderer shall be.
Dive, thoughts, down to my soul: here
Clarence comes.
Shakespeare

 

No!
Just leave on 31st October 2019.
Deal or No Deal.
Preferably No Deal
That would be Referendum honoured instead of being reneged on by traitors to democracy.
Simples.

 

The problem with the first referendum that has been explained many times is that people had many differing views on what voting to the leave the EU actually meant (and for many it was a protest vote that had nothing to do with Europe)

IT WAS A SPLIT VOTE.

Many on the leave side didn’t know what kind of leave they were voting for

While ALL those that voted to remain knew they were voting to remain.

The other thing is that in the referendum even the leaver leadership ruled out a No Deal Brexit, they said time and again that would be bad and would never happen, it was always that they could get a ‘better deal’. The whole idea of a No Deal was called ‘project fear’ by the leaver leadership, no deal was something to be feared – in other words - to not be voted for.

Only later when the true complexities and pitfalls of a Brexit became clear and with it the realisation that any deal would be worse than the one we already had that the simplistic No Deal idea took root amongst those that wanted a simplistic answer, which they could shout but never defend.

And in conversations with people, what I’ve read and listened to since then and looking at what members of Parliament have indicated many of the people that might vote for a Theresa May deal and the majority that would for a single market and customs union deal would not vote for a No Deal (seeing it as dangerous)

Anyway however it is looked at, the country would be still split

And that is the real tragedy of all this it has sowed the seeds of discord that will go on for a generation with each side blaming the other for any subsequent problems the country faces, because this whole Brexit rigmarole means Britain will face problems.

The rise of English nationalism will cause the rise of Scottish and Irish nationalism, our relationship with Europe is shot and our standing in the world diminished especially as I place for honest investment.

And the thing is it seems to me that the hard-core leavers drunk on the jingoistic rhetoric of their leaders and the rich people that own the right wing press don’t care about the problems or even look on that future with glee because it will cause pain to the remoaners.

 

The reason I say we should revoke or ask for a very long extension (say 2-5 years) is because we need the time for the leavers to actually come up with a rational and reasonable plan that then can be presented in a future referendum so that we have a clear and worked out plan to vote for or not, so people know precisely what they are voting for and against

We either vote for the leavers plan or we vote to remain

 

I think one of the factors that I consider is that many people were misled into voting to leave . Remember the red bus for the leaver stating that more funds will be available for the NHS and Boris very pationately supporting that claim . So just were is all this money for the NHS ? Some people bought into that . I have even heard it on the local radio that some leavers may not have voted as they did knowing that they had been misled by the leaving campaign.

I still think if the remainers ran a better campaign the decision could have been different as it was so close.

 

The Supreme Court has spoken Johnson was acting unlawfully and the forced suspension Parliament is at an end, in fact by court ruling it never happened.

Parliament opens again tomorrow

This is a great day for Parliamentary sovereignty against those that would wish to curtail it – it just seems rather ironic that it was leavers that talked so much about wanting to protect Parliamentary sovereignty were the very ones that tried to curtail it.

 

What the hell are you people smoking?

The referendum result said LEAVE so we should LEAVE. with or without an agreement. If we leave with no agreement it may take a little time to negotiate with other countries. Right now in the EU we cannot make trade agreements with the US, the Commonwealth or any other countries in the world.

If we stay the EU the bureaucracy with GROW like an uncontrolled cancer. Teresa May screwed around and wasted THREE YEARS on the withdrawal agreement. That agreement was designed to keep us in forever and under the control of the European Court for SEVEN YEARS. I suggest you read a couple of paragraphs to get an education, it is very interesting. She said it was written in the UK which is absolute balderdash.

In a few years time we will not need a parliament it will all be controlled by the EU. The EU will have its own armed forces. The Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force will become under the control of the EU with THEIR uniforms.

Now our fisheries are controlled by the EU. We are limited on what we can put in sausages, chocolate and other foods.

Never mind what the red bus said. If we can quit paying the EU BILIONS of POUNDS every year we can properly fund the NHS.

 

The EU army stuff is bullshit. Read a fact checking website about it.
Also as long as we were part of EU we had the ability to VETO it. Now we have no say in what they do.

For the record I voted remain, but am happy to leave, and I like Boris Johnson. I'm not biased either way. It feels like everyone else is, and both sides sound stupid to me these days.

 

What control?

A European integrated army has long been a dream of the European project, I mean the European project was about trying to stop the wars that have often plagued Europe through greater union and what better way than having one European army. It has often been discussed but hasn’t really moved beyond that.

And as Drift has pointed out we could have vetoed it.

What do you want to put in your food that is prohibited by been in the EU?

The US has explained quite clearly that any trade deal with the US will meant the end of the NHS as a public body to be replaced with an the expensive and not universally covering US model.

The people that have pushed hardest for a no deal Brexit are neoliberals that are opposed to the NHS and have voted to starve it of funds, so your theory seems unlikely.

 

There are 46,356 people employed across all EU institutions At first glance, these figures might seem quite high, particularly if we look at the commission. But for an administrative staff covering institutions serving over 500m people it’s a shoestring operation, especially when we compare it to civil services operating at the national, or even local levels. Compare this, for example, to the 33,477 people employed by Birmingham City Council, covering a population of 1.1m in 2015-16.

https://theconversation.com/how-many-people-work-for-the-eu-59702

On 31 March 2017, there were 332,800 Civil Service employees in England, 43,220 in Scotland, 32,440 in Wales and 3,760 in Northern Ireland.

UK population c60 million

412,220 civil servants

EU population c500 million

46,356 civil servants

 

Did 17 million people voted for a no deal Brexit

The myth that all the people that voted for Brexit voted for the same thing is one that some leavers are still pushing.

It also has to be remembered that it was very close the difference between leave and remain was 3.8 percent or 1.3 million in favour of Leave.

The problem with the first referendum - as has been explained many times in this thread - is that people had many differing views on what voting to the leave the EU actually meant (and for many it was a protest vote that had nothing to do with Europe)

IT WAS A SPLIT VOTE.

Many on the leave side didn’t know what kind of leave they were voting for

While ALL those that voted to remain knew they were voting to remain.

The other thing is that in the referendum even the leaver leadership ruled out a No Deal Brexit, they said time and again that would be bad and would never happen, it was always that they could get a ‘better deal’. The whole idea of a No Deal was called ‘project fear’ by the leaver leadership, no deal was something to be feared – in other words - to not be voted for.

If we leave with no deal we will have no trade deals with any country and the plans in place will have a very adverse effect on the UK economy.

The European Union (EU) has about 40 free trade deals, covering more than 70 countries. That means the UK, as a member of the EU, can currently trade with countries like Canada without having to pay taxes on imports (tariffs) on most goods

In the event of a no-deal Brexit, the UK would suddenly lose tariff-free access to these markets and it would have to trade under World Trade Organization (WTO) rules.

 

Lying

Why to leavers keep bringing up stuff that they know or should know doesn’t stand up when looked at?

At best it is wilful ignorance but increasingly seems like just out and out lying

 

If you can't dazzle them brilliance, baffle em with bullshit. Brexit is not about restoring Britain to its former glory, anymore than Donald Duck is actually hoping to make America great again by restoring democracy. In both cases, the corruption in government is all but complete, with Americans today convinced that a lynch mob can be considered a democracy, because it has majority rule. Wars, including civil wars, are not the result of thoughtful deliberation.

At least half of us, don't prefer to share their words and play nice, if it doesn't get them everything they want. A study of those calling themselves moral, indicated that 80% of them applied their morality in a deliberate and thoughtful manner to other people, but not themselves. They are all wannabe lawyers and Wall Street traders, and the more corrupt your government becomes, the more they will muddy the waters and argue all crows are white. The only way to oppose them, is encourage them to eat each other alive, in the name of fighting the good fight, or fighting for survival. Rope-a-dope jokes are just the icing on the cake.

The bots I'm working on can incorporate any rhetoric you want, and encourage the idiots to attack each other more often. Its just Three Stooges slapstick, but high tech linguistics. The idiots are so stupid, what I say once, twice, three times must be true! And, their own rhetoric convinces them they cannot be fooled by bots. The harder they apply their own morality to others, and not themselves, the faster they shoot themselves and each other in the foot and learn not to do that so often, and not to take their own rhetoric so seriously.

 

This is how the ballot paper read



Its either/or, there is no talk about which kind of deal. Any lame argument about misrepresentation with the referendum on the type of deal is nonsense. There is no mention of what type of deal in the referendum ballot paper. Any lame argument that the voters didnt know what deal they were voting for is just a diversionary tactic to shift focus away from the fact that the result was a result remainers didnt like

 

Wool

There is a phase attributed to Winston Churchill that goes “Jaw, jaw is better than war, war.”

I worry for my the country I live in and love because there seem to be so many people who having been misled seem to want to hurt it and many people in it including themselves. And if you read history you will know that many people that found themselves blindly following some bad idea or leader end up deeply regretting it later on.

I recently re-watched the Vietnam War documentary by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick and it is just amazing how people went along with and supported a war build and sustained on lies and the hate many people had to those that were against it, calling them traitors and quislings

The question is should those that were against the war because they realised it was a bad thing have just given up were they wrong to point out that the war was a bad thing?

I mean most people would now agree that it was a bad war badly executed that split the US and caused the needless death of thousands.

Brexit is not a war but it has already caused harm and if carried through could cause a lot more, should I stop pointing out it is a bad idea badly executed because people have called me a traitor?