Yet another pissed off "nice guy" ranting about how much relationships suck.

I have yet to see proof of this. In fact the opposite seems true to me. In my observations and based on advise from friends and acquaintances - or even more convincingly through observing these friends as they "hunt" or whatever you want to call it for women - that women eat up bullshit like candy. These guys are people I know fairly well, so I know when they change into completely different personalities and start rolling out the lies and exaggerations, and more often than not manage to totally captivate the girls' minds with their facades. And it seems to me that men in their "native" personalities, if you will, just don't attract very many women. Its only when they don the metaphorical "dreamboat" mask and pretend to be somebody who doesn't exist.

I, on the other hand, can't lie my way out of a paper bag. You don't need a bullshit detector to know if I'm lying - all you need is ears. The easy solution to this is to simply not lie, which is what I do in every case unless I will have to face some horrible consequence if I tell the truth - i.e. "No officer, there aren't any drugs in the car." My inability to lie may be linked to my lack of self confidence.

It seems most of my GOOD friends (and these tend not to be the ones I was talking about before - those are more like people I tolerate than actual friends) are the same way. Very honest and open, fairly socially awkward/shy, particularly around women, and completely, horribly, totally, utterly unsuccessful with women.

But perhaps women do have these supposed bullshit detectors but simply ignore them when they go off because if a guy is attempting to lie and believes he can succeed, then he must have some amount of confidence, which is apparently miles and miles ahead of honesty or personality or sharing common interests or beliefs or any other trait that might help determine whether or not a girl is interested.

Don't get too offended. I know there are always exceptions to the rules. Not all women get off on bullshit. And there are confident men who are also honest and decent people and probably deserve any women they manage to ensnare (that sounds weird but I couldn't think of a better verb to put there). But I am arguing that these are all by far minorities.

And I have yet to see for myself men with anything more than mild confidence issues get into anything resembling a relationship or achieving any kind of intimate connection with a woman at all beyond the odd and totally unexpected drunken sex at a party with somebody they don't know and never see again. The really aggravating thing is that even women who have confidence issues that are just as bad or worse won't even consider being with a guy with the same issues.

And they don't have to because some confident attention-whore alpha-male douchebag will inevitably come sweep them off their feet, give them their immediate gratification they seek, then go find a "hot" girl to fuck for awhile, until that "hot" girl loses interest or moves away or whatever, then he'll return to the other one until he can catch another "hot" girl. And she will have waited faithfully for him the whole time, knowing full well that he disappeared for a few weeks to have sex with a girl he found more attractive, and that he only returned to get his sexual fix because there were no other prospects.

Can you tell I'm describing two people I actually know?

Sorry for the long post, and perhaps rambing off topic a bit. This stuff weighs heavily on the soul. Its maddening thinking of how wonderful it will be when the right girl actually reciprocates your warm feelings then immediately remembering that such a girl does not and never will exist, then doing it again and again over and over as biology dictates. I have to get it out and show it to other people if i want a moment of relief from this god awful thought loop and the sensation of running into a brick wall repeatedly that accompanies it.

To anyone considering saying something like "don't worry, you'll find the right girl eventually," or some such thing, which is usually what happens -

No offence, I appreciate the attempt at sending positive vibes, really I do. But this is what it feels like when I hear you saying it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

So in short, to the thread starter - I feel you man.

 

As for you, Mr. Duck. . .

You have no idea. Stop pretending you know what is really happening with people in this situation. You have no fucking idea.

The body has this nice little thing it does in scary situations. Its called the fight or flight response - I'm sure you've heard of it? When it gets triggered it more or less shuts down higher brain functions and redirects all of that energy to the body and the most basic brain functions - the ones that compel you to either physically defend yourself or get away from danger.

Let me put it this way. Pretend you're on an airplane. You're in a window seat looking out at the sky. Suddenly you see the engine hanging from the wing explode and the plane tilts quickly into a nose dive. You can see the ground coming up fast. You are going to die. Now turn to the attractive girl next to you and try to get a date with her. Sound a bit difficult?

Some of us were unfortunate enough to never really have had female friends. I can recall in middle school there were lots of cliques both on the male and female side. Most of the cliques on one side would correspond roughly to a clique on the other side, and in high school the corresponding groups would merge into a single group. However for my group of friends there was no corresponding group of females. For some reason the unpopular loser shy hippie stoner thing seems to be limited to guys, or at least it was where I went to school.

So imagine growing up all the way through the end of high school without ever really having had any female friends. How can you possibly know how to talk to them then? And by the time high school is over women just expect you to be expert at it, and if you're not they want nothing to do with you.

So there you are, forcing yourself, though terrified, to try to talk to a girl you have some kind of interest in because you know there is no other way you're going to get over the problem. The mind shuts down, as always, and all you can do is reply to anything she says in one-word answers and not say anything of your own besides that.

You feel like maybe if you could hang out with this girl a few more times you could get used to her and start to loosen up and just be normal. But naturally the girl doesn't really ever want to hang out with or "talk" with you again because she thinks you're boring or stupid or both.

Does this make me a "pussy?" Genetics have been shown to be a factor in developing social anxiety, and both my mother and father have social anxiety. Add to that the fact that my father would solve my behavioral problems by yelling at me until I felt like a worthless pile of shit and punishing me liberally. Hell, it didn't have to be behavior problems. He'd lose his shit when his five year old son (me) would accidentally spill his (my) milk at dinner or some such innocuous thing. Also factor in being deemed uncool at the beginning of elementary school and therefore avoided and made fun of, and also being singled out by the school for more "behavioral problems" and thereby spending more recess hours twiddling my thunbs at a desk facing a wall in the principal's than actually going outside and playing.

Lemme try to sum this up. Everything in my childhood, from before birth to the end of elementary school, conspires to leave me with severely underdeveloped social skills. In middle and high school, when most people start naturally making friends with members of the opposite sex, I am not only hiding from doing so but also being prevented by the simple fact that women are not interested in being seen talking to a "loser." Not to mention also simply being naive and unaware that that time period was my last chance to learn how women expect men to socialize with them. Then I graduate high school and finally see that I have to force myself to talk to women if I'm going to have any hope of not being alone for the rest of my life - but every attempt, though I put every ounce of effort I have available into it, fails miserably and ends up making me less rather than more confident.

The last part is key. You seem like one of the people who has this very incorrect (but popular) idea that people who have this problem just aren't trying and would rather whine about not being able to get women than go out and learn how to do it. I imagine you would say something like "Just go force yourself to talk to girls and learn how to do it" What I'm telling you is we never get the opportunity.

No matter how much confidence we build up before meeting with a girl, when the time comes the brain sabotages itself and all we can do is look like incompetent fools, unable to figure out how to converse beyond the most basic responses to what is being said to us, and utterly unable to figure out anything of our own to say. The failure reduces our confidence even more, and we never have the opportunity to get comfortable talking to one girl (and then perhaps try to apply what we learned to other girls) because, well, what girl would want to hang out with you again if you can't do anything besides saying "yeah" or "nope" or "maybe" in a conversation with her?

Now try to imagine you're in my or the thread starter's position. You're looking at living your entire life alone until you die alone and unloved, but surrounded by people who almost without exception have somebody from the opposite sex (or the same sex I suppose if thats your thing) who cares about them. That fucking hurts. It hurts real bad. And after awhile it starts to drive you insane. If we can't find a place to vent these feelings (such as an internet forum, which is easier and more comfortable than trying to talk to someone in person about such an awkward situation, especially when you're like me and communicate through writing 1000x better than in speech) then I think many of us would end up doing something we would regret. Taking something innocuous somebody on the street says and construing it as an insult about our lack of success with women and proceeding to beat the piss out of him, for instance.

So, Duck, fuck right off. Just because something is not a challenge for you doesn't mean that anyone it IS a challenge for isn't trying or is a pussy. My brain chemistry is not your brain chemistry. My life experience is not your life experience.

 

When you are ready, but not needy, but TRULY ready, that is when things come to be.

Stop worrying and take focus of yourself. Improve, explore, and live! Others will take notice in time, when it is right, and believe me, self confidence and exploration is a very sexy trait.

Things happen when they are meant to happen. Patience is the greatest lesson you can learn at this time. I took a 3 year break to find the one, but really I was trying to find myself!!! so I would be ready for the one.

Explore the skies while you can, they will eventually bring you back down to the earth, where you can nest with the knowledge you have gain to feed your growing contentment with another.

hope that helps

 

Is that really necessary? how can you expect someone to branch out when you bash them down?

Maybe it's a guy thing, but I think there are better methods.

Someone needs a hug

 

I'm a gemini - he met the bad side.
But really, I've long learned that in most cases, tough love is the best technique (at least for internet forums). Sometimes, the person will reject the rudeness, but then you can usually come off and 'explain yourself'.

However, if you don't get a little mean, they just keep on thinking they are right and make an excuse for why you are not.
So, I've developed a bit of a two step program for appropriate situations - make them realize they are wrong, tell em what is. It's worked very well on the other forum I was on, I've not really got to test it out so much here yet.
Plus, people like him just piss me off - they make all nice guys look whiny.

Oh, and as far as it being a guy thing, I've seen girls be mean but helpful as well =)

 

Like I said it must be a guy thing. or maybe just being human and vulnerable, like we all are.

I tend to use philosophy, my own kind, to help people think, to steer away from being caught up in their emotions (trust me, easier said than done). The higher truth is always hard to find. That's why I told him to spread his wings and find himself. It's the only way to true understanding.

 

How can it be a guy thing, if I've seen chicks do it too? =S

But anyways, some people don't want to listen, which makes reasoning to them rather hard. So when I think I've run into someone that won't want to listen, I break them down before showing them the more reasonable thinking.
Think of it sort've like debating first, rather than simply teaching.

 

I think I understand now

I know one right now I want to bash in the head with reasoning, but if they don't listen, what is the use? You can only save yourself. Life's sad lesson to us all.

 

I just noticed that he responded and maybe it wasn't the proper tactic in this case, but from the small part I did read in his texts, he seems like the sort that will not accept the blame or responsibility for himself.
I mean, he's trying to make excuses about his disorder to a person who had horrible Anxiety Disorder growing up, and didn't really learn to make friends until highschool. (All throughout elementary and middle school, the only way I would make friends is by bumping into someone else lonely)
Nor did I have a female friend until junior year or so when I started working at a grocery store and had to talk to females to save me from boredom.

To OP, your post was really long. That is why I am not responding to it directly. I've looked through it over and over but I can not bring myself to read and reply straight on through beginning to end (attention problems, I apologize)
However, you seem to be making these excuses where you can learn.
Maybe your problems are worse than the ones I had - but that doesn't change that you can try, and you can learn. Making excuses is one thing that will NOT help at all.

Sure, everyone gets nervous when they start out - but you gotta work through that. Once again, this is coming from someone with GAD, who experienced Social Anxiety, probably not much unlike yours, until he grew the balls to just do it - there's not much room for excuses with me.
You think I wasn't nervous when going to meet my girlfriend? You think I wasn't sweating?
How about before we were dating, when I first went to put my arm around her, and it felt paralyzed?
Or all the times I drove myself crazy with chaotic thoughts about how I should kiss her as soon as I get a chance but what if she doesn't want me to, but what if she does and I miss out because I don't realize it.
You can do it. Trust me. You can work through it.
When we let the disorder win, that's when it becomes a disability. Don't give up. Don't whine. Don't blame things like "I'm a nice guy" "I'm not used to this" "I am anxious" Just do it.

 

gEo_tehaD_returns, I appreciate your posts a lot. I would smoke a joint with you if we ever met up. Not trying to sound all high and mighty here to the rest of the people who posted in this thread, but you and I are intellectuals, we don't simply do, we think it out first. The drawback to that is obviously worrying about things too much that are probably nothing and letting things get to you. We're a little different in our situations, I've had plenty of female friends, that's just as far as I ever got. I get what you mean with the whole falling into the dating scene with absolutely no experience though. Same happened for me, obviously. Don't worry about the long posts, I read every word and I get you too.

To Duck, I was going to retaliate against that, and I still don't agree with you at all but I understand your point, we just see things very differently. I do just plain need to "man up" (as much as I hate that term because it implies that us guys have some standard that we need to be living up to that has yet to be defined) and say/do stuff that I wouldn't otherwise say or do. I've been trying, talking to girls without being a total doormat is a big change for me so it's going to be gradual.

To Crystalsatreehugger - your type of advice is useful, that's more what I was looking for. I've been thinking the same thing, just focusing on getting a bit of a life together so I feel like I have some purpose, and in the meantime I'll meet people who might get interested in me.

I wasn't looking to get bashed on, that just really pissed me off, Duck, but this is an internet forum and there's really no use arguing it to the death. You have a different point of view, that's pretty much the end of it, as far as I'm concerned. Neither of us is 100% correct on a matter such as this.

Could I have some advice on how to get a girl to start opening up to you? I'm probably not alone on this one, but I for one absolutely require another open mind who is capable of deep conversation about literally (as in LITERALLY) anything.I need to feel that connection with someone, that immense level of trust and understanding of one another. I'm sure this would be a very gradual thing, but what would be a good way to kick things off in that direction with a girl?

 

You're right, 'man up' is a pretty bad term. I'm pretty big on fixing gender inequality, so that's prolly one I shouldn't be using =P

To Crystalsatreehugger - you may have been right, this time +_+

Seeing as how you seem more willing to accept responsibility now, I feel I have done my job right (though definitely not flawlessly).

It all depends on the girl. Some girls will start off like that on square one - some girls aren't the type to open themselves up easily or at all.
The higher and more specific your standards are, the harder it will be to find someone who fits them. Maybe you should start off a little smaller, more of a no expectations just get to know who you can get to know kinda thing.
As far as if you find the type of girl that will do such things, they will be apt to do that, all you gotta do is be there to talk and listen.
In my experience there aren't that many people who are like that with basic strangers, however, I have met a few, and I'm only 20, so there must be a fair bit out there.

 

Haveing Been down the Same Road myself, I can only tell you to heed the advice you probably have already researched.

Its not much of a fun road. But I to do not see the fun in haveing girlfriend after girlfriend. Its more ideal to find one that you can get along and be with.

Like "Nice Guys" There is actual women out there that have realized to do away with the artificial traits, and think clearly. Though They are just as hard to find :/

You will see alot out there but even though they may talk rationally, understand that thier actions more commonly are not.

So as it goes, Heed what you already know, And have heard via friends and focus more on academics for your career. its much more worth it. Theres no point in de-valueing yourself, cause the older they get, tends to be the more they actually realize what realy to look for other then wish washy thoughts. Which will make dateing/relationships more stable.

Only thing i will suggest, when you do get your first real relationship going, Do not Jump to deep in off the bat, unfortunetly first time relations do not tend to last, and can hit hard. Though experience will give more then what you can pick up from ranting of friends and the like. Good luck to ya on your search.

 

Virginity is hot. rawr!