Would YOU vote for RON PAUL

lol that's not racist. I'm saying; it's a double standard they have Black entertainment television, but if white people made white entertainment television it'd be racist. (But don't name a TV station that it spells WET lol)

 

Don't you get it? If you're white, and point out racism in others....that automatically makes YOU racist. Duh

And don't underestimate Balbus, he may be out of touch with American politics, (and a lot of other things that I won't say) but he is educated and very well read. The term "neo-liberal" is what you were referring to, and is not the same thing as "liberal." Balbus is the only person I've heard use the term neo-liberal, so I'm assuming it's a lot more common overseas

 

Letlovin

Oh I read it but everything had already been covered in the thread you seemed to be just reiterating things that already had outstanding criticisms levelled at them – I thought I’d posted something to that effect but it seems I didn’t (for which I apologise).

Anyway the charge was that right wing libertarian policies always seem to end up favouring wealth and so increasing their power. Nothing you said contradicted that in fact you only seemed to be trying to justify it.

Your argument seemed to be that corporations should be allowed to become wealthier and employers should be allowed to more easily exploit their employees.

Try reading -http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=353922

Also it’s already been pointed out many, many, many, many times that while tax cuts might cover everyone they increase the power and influence of a few much more than they help the majority.

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=436309&page=76

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=436309&page=55

And you pretty much admit that public land might not be that safe in private hands and would probably be better in government hands.

As I’ve said before right wing libertarians don’t seem able to address the criticisms the just seem to pretend they don’t exist and repeat things that they couldn’t defend before.

Neoliberal ideas have already brought about a situation were the incomes of wealth have ballooned while those of the middle and lower classes have in real terms either stagnated or fallen. The extreme neo-liberalist ideas of right wing libertarians would very likely make that bad situation worse.

 

Letlovin

LOL – it is very common for some less honest types of politician to say that the opponents of their ideas are ‘out of touch’ (with a wink at the audience) - it’s a transparent and rather silly smear.

Thing is that many of the major criticisms of neoliberalism have come out of America. Many of the books I’ve recommended here are written by Americans or those living in the US for example Joseph Stiglitz, Paul Krugmanand Naomi Klein.

It’s rather funny that you claim I’m ‘out of touch’ but it is you that hadn’t heard of neo-liberalism before I mentioned it even though that is the a common term in the context of recent right wing economic ideas, especially those of right wing libertarians.

Maybe you need to do a bit of wider reading I can recommend some more books - on top of those that I’ve already listed.

 

This is from wiki –

Please note – “The definitive statement of the concrete policies advocated by neoliberalism is often taken to be John Williamson's "Washington Consensus"”

You can read my reply to these ideas here
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=7055342&postcount=64

 

This is why no true change will come . All the political labels and party branding . The mainstream media swings in the moment any grassroots movement begins and right away labels that movement to the right or the left of the political spectrum . And once that's done it alienates and divides the population amongst themselves through the same old tired party lines, rhetoric and bullshit . With all our political parties only the two have any play , because of the mainstream media . And both are a sold out shell of their former selves . Owned and controlled by big business, lobbyist and banking cartels . As long as WE THE PEOPLE keep letting them divide us , through all sort of silly nonsense and bullshit . Like political parties , race , gender ,religion ,unions and on and on It will get worse and worse . Until we as a nation begin to see how their media arm spins, and creates illusions to keep us divided so we never see the real enemy . Then there is no hope , because we fall for it over and over .

I have come to hate both political parties . Because both are destroying America from within . Both are happy to sell and loot their county , for their own profit . They stay silent about the real issues destroying America , because to speak out against the tyranny would mean political suicide for a career politician whose only goal is reelection . And to gain re-election they must bow down to the media propaganda machine who is owned and controlled by big business oligarchy elite . I will say say Ron Paul has been the only one to speak out against some these "real" issues . Like getting rid of the federal reserve . A tyrannous enity sucking the life blood from America . And for that I do give him credit . However , for that he will NEVER be president ! Because the elite will always see him as a rogue cowboy , who they will never trust .

The truth is neither of these parties represents the average American "citizen" anymore . Most are somewhere in the middle between the two . But have no real middle ground representation because of the media . Wasted votes and pipe dreams , on any other party but the big two . Who are really one in the same today , even though on the oppisite ends of the political spectrum , both are destroying this nation and holding it hostage .

A new real labor movement and political party to restore the middle class. I believe is our only hope . To dump both parties out on their asses . And the start is bringing ourselves together as ONE as AMERICAN'S ,tired of this silly bullshit political con game . away from both these parties . Unions built the middle class in America . And I believe their dwindling numbers today are directly proportional to the state America is in today . It made it much easier for the elite to systematically wage class warfare and loot our industrial base from within . And push tryannous destructive policys like N.A.F.T.A. on us . Designed by a rep. and signed in by a dem. . The unions today are a sell out shell of there former selves . We need to start them over . And purge them as they stand now . They collect dues monies from their rank and file , and fund democrat political campaigns . A waste of time and money . And many times fund politicians who are awful for labor . Yet never get held accountable . Think what that money could do , if it was used to create jobs , by worker union co-opts . Which if grown large enough would starve the rich , and create a new party platform . The power from a labor movement like this would be a true force to be reckoned with . One voice for labor with economic power behind it . A mass voice to boycott any foreign made product or company and dismantle N.A.F.T.A .

We will never come together , so I see no hope . And honestly I think it matters little who gets elected when once they get to Washington are controlled , subverted and silenced . And the game and dance goes on and on for the puppet master .

We built it , we can change it . We fed the machine to well , and made it to powerful . We must starve it , to change it . And to do that would need all of us together . And I never see that happening . Because so many are brainwashed by the media .

America , will not stand without the middle class . We either come together as one voice , putting differences aside for what's right for the country . Or we will witness its fall and destruction . And the world will follow her demise . We the people hold the keys for change . Only IF we stop being divided , and demand better from ourselves and out "ELECTED" puppets . United we will stand , or divided we WILL fall . And it looks like it's going to be fall .

 

AMEN PAPA WOLF!!!! I can't add another thing. Come together people. Open your eyes!!! WE pay their payroll. Time to fire their asses.

 

Hear hear! Well said, Papa Wolf! Concise and to the point!

Truth! Accept no substitutes . . .

 

Papa

I feel your anger and frustration but you seem confused I mean you rile against neoliberal ideas and then the only politician you support is the extremely neoliberal Ron Paul.

As I’ve pointed out time and again the problem is the neoliberal ideas and policies that have taken hold over the last 30 odd years. It was those policies (and anti-communist jingoism) that undermined US industry and labour movement, neoliberalism encourages outsourcing because it allows the movement of jobs from workers with benefits to workers without those benefits. Neoliberal ideas allows the media to be dominated by wealth and allows it to be biased in its favour…etc.

Over and over the things you complain about come back to neoliberal ideas but you then turn round and give your support to one of the biggest neoliberal in the field who’d make a bad situation even worse.

Rather than ranting and raving and lashing out without thinking why not try and work out why America has these problems.

Try reading this post –
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=6995748&postcount=24
from the thread
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=435209&f=36

 

First of all I don't support R.P. , nor any career politician . What I said was, He is the only one with enough marbles to speak the truth of some of the real issues facing America . And that is truth . I don't care what political label he is branded to . Truth is truth . Second of all i'm "confused" about nothing . We are politicking ourselves to death in this country . Bipartisan Party lines and rhetoric should not come before the good of the nation .

The "labor movement " underminded itself . As much as I hate to say it , it's true . Because you can't use 1950s country club mentality to todays labor crisis issues . The major flaws in unions and thier decline and soon death are three fold .

The biggest nail in the coffin was ORGANIZING . Rather their lack of it . Even today they are willing to keep the doors closed to the outside world . Because the few enjoy job security and would rather keep it that way . A delusional 50s way of thinking ,when they had the numbers. Without adding numbers to the rank and file through organizing , increasing market share and producing larger numbers to support the democratic party . Even though the numbers prove they are in rapid decline , and soon death . The world of business changed and evolved , they did not . And got left behind . Todays union worker is the most skilled ,productive laborer in the country . He is also the most expensive . And without growth , expansion and market share he is doomed .

The biggest threat to the right is organized labor . That's why they work tirelessly to destroy it . And use any tactics to destroy it , like "right to work legislation " . Anti union propaganda an on in on . It helps their cause however , when the unions are divided among themselves . Such as the A.F.L./ C.I.O. split . A major sign of weakness and infighting . Prime time for the right to push new agandas against a weak and divided labor house . Local unions not standing together as one , and honoring each others strikes . Like rats in a cage , they cross each others lines . As if there numbers weren't in decline enough , they stand divided .

They should of adopted the I.W.W. policies one big GLOBAL international union . And got rid of local union autonomy . They don't want that , because to many of their do nothing useless leaders would be out on their ass . When big business left ,( who are the ultra conservative capitalists by the way . Or new "neoliberal " whatever you want to call them . That's a word not used much here , and honestly it's confusing . I guess that's why you like to use it so much ? That term is more South American based , and I guess can be interchanged with "globalization" , so I guess it fits, whatever . )

Any way , When industry left to exploit foreign labor . Unions should have followed . Much blood has been let , because foreign organizers tried to push union agenda to no avail . A mass all union multi partnership and collection , with the best organizers should have been on the ground to meet them . Not to mention the Reagan air traffic controllers strike , when he replaced 11,000 union controllers , with scab NON UNION workers , while the unions divided of course , because of the " it didn't effect me or my people attitude " . Not only took it , but sat around with their them up the ass . "oh,okay then, nothing we can do " . Same thing in the Wisconsin,labor "entitlement" struggle . Every union in the nation should have bused every member they had to the scene , instead of just the Wisconsin organized labor . The right is better organized than the left unorganized labor . It's a sad fact but TRUE . They spend their money better on lobbyist , and back political candidates who stay more true to the G.o.p. wishes , standards and brand . While time after time the dem . liberals labor selects are awful for labor . And horrible for working people . It's a self fulfilling prophecy . And the right is winning it . That's clear to see . I swear, if Hitler ran today as the only dem. or rep. in a political race both sides would back him , for party lines . Even though destructive to the country .

I'm not "lashing" out at anything . Nor do I think I care for your backhanded "unthinking" comment . Frankly , I find it a little arrogant and belittling on your part . Because we don't agree on everything doesn't mean I'm "unthinking ". You seem to like to twist peoples words to suit your political stance . And seem to like to argue with everyone . As if only your views are correct . That's nonsense . You can read all the political books you want . If you allow yourself to feel superior to others and their opinions . And become blind through political polarization and not let yourself see the forrest for the trees . Then perhaps you should "think" a little more . Find your own opinion , instead of some books opinion . I have BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN MY COUNTRY , and have opinions just as you . Whether wrong or right , they are my own and I'm entitled to them . While I read many of you comments , and we disagree on some , and agree on others . I have never or would never accuse or belittle you for "not thinking" based on your opinions . It seems most of what is going on here is fighting and closed minded individuals , assuming , judging and berating anyone who dares disagree or have their own opinion . Any way sorry I dared to post in your playground , with my silly little unthinking views . long live the king .

 

I find it quite uplifting that on a primarily Left leaning forum a poll comprised of respondents where 56% claim to be liberal leaning, 29% moderate?, and only 15% conservative leaning, Ron Paul was able to achieve the support of 63.3%, firmly opposed by only 28.2%, with 8.5% undecided.

Sadly, we are approaching an election where Obama and Romney will be the only candidates from which our next President will be chosen, but maybe next election when the National debt has topped $20 trillion, working, taxpaying voters may begin to speak much louder.

 

Good posts papa wolf.

Here is something I think a lot of people are unaware of...
http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articl...ation-in-doubt-brokered-convention-likely647/

 

How so? Instead of beating the dead horse with a bat made of rhetoric, how about actually backing your statement?

How do you come to that conclusion?

Power and influence over what? If you took away the power of Lobbyists and Big Government I'm not sure of the influence you're referring to.

Federal Government is not the same thing as state Government. I'm surprised, I thought you would know that.

As I've said before, you seem to just repeat the same rhetoric and don't listen to
anything that doesn't align with your political views. Papa Wolf has it right......the establishment wants to pit us against each other. While we're arguing about abortion they're passing things like the NDAA. Smoke and mirrors my friend.

 

What's your point?

Hmm. Maybe you should try reading some more books on the basic laws of the English Language. As I didn't make that claim, I simply commented on the claim made by another poster. And I never said I hadn't heard of the term "neo liberal." I said people don't use that term in this country, and that you are the only person I know who uses it. Because a word is commonly used in your country, doesn't mean that it is in mine. And it doesn't mean that I never heard of a word when I say that it's not commonly used.

I see you enjoy twisting words around to better suit your argument. It's very common for dirty politicians to use this practice.

 

Papa

But strangely you do seem to be endorsing Ron Paul - and his views - by claiming he has the right ideas and speaks the ‘truth’. I’m just wondering why you’d endorse a neoliberal like him?

Also I’m not saying that unions themselves don’t have some responsibility for their own decline but that neo-liberal ideas and policies have a great (if not greater) responsibility for it (for example labour market flexibility or Union bashing is a neoliberal policy).

I’m an internationalist and have argued strongly here that the best way to counter globalised wealth is through international regulation, and for that you need international institutions (on of which would be a global trade union).

Kicking global wealth out of the driving seat.
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=353922

But you do seem to be lashing out - you blast the system, the outsourcing, the unions, the people, the media and the politicians (except Ron Paul).

And the last one (you endorsing Ron Paul) that makes me feel you haven’t thought your views through; because why would you endorse a neoliberal when the problems you are lashing out at are mainly the fault of neoliberalism?

Look I agree with a lot of what you are saying and have argued for many of the things you’ve mentioned but if you want people to unite then we need people to clearly understand what we are uniting behind.

You mention Hitler – well a lot of Germans didn’t understand Nazis beliefs and supported them only because they were angry and frustrated with the system and wanted change – well they got change.

You want change I’m only warning you to choose that change carefully for example I don’t think Ron Paul or any other neoliberal is a good choice.

 

letlovin

Your argument seemed to be that corporations should be allowed to become wealthier and employers should be allowed to more easily exploit their employees

Because of what you said.

Here is the post anyone can look at it -
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=7211597&postcount=975

You defend corporations and seem to argue that they should be less taxed and less regulated, the former would make them vastly richer and so more powerful the other would allow them to exploit people more easily.

*

Also it’s already been pointed out many, many, many, many times that while tax cuts might cover everyone they increase the power and influence of a few much more than they help the majority.

In monetary based systems wealth brings power and therefore influence this is one of the lessons of history.
One of the things about a well functioning democracy is that the votes of the many should counter the influence of money. I and many other believe wealth has gained too much control in the American political system and my problem with right wingers like yourself is that you seem to want to increase that power, a charge you still refuse to address let alone refute.

*

And you pretty much admit that public land might not be that safe in private hands and would probably be better in government hands.

In monetary based systems wealth brings power and therefore influence and that can happen (it is allowed to) at local or national levels another lesson of history.
As pointed out before yours is a right wing ideology and works at every level, form personal to global.

I’m not talking about abortion or NDAA I’m pointing out that right wing views like your own increase the power and influence of wealth – you seem to be using these smoke and mirror distractions to get of addressing that criticism.

 

Letlovin

you claim I’m ‘out of touch’ but it is you that hadn’t heard of neo-liberalism before I mentioned it

LOL – ok lets look at what you said -

The ONLY person - in other words you are saying that you had never heard this term being used by any other person but me, meaning you had not heard it from any other source but me before I said it - what was it you said oh yes - Maybe you should try reading some more books on the basic laws of the English Language

Maybe you meant to say – neo-liberal is not a common term and Balbus is the only person I know who uses it – but that wasn’t what you said.

As before you seem so desperate to score a point against me that unthinkingly you invariably shoot yourself in the foot.

As I pointed out many of the major criticisms of neoliberalism have come out of America. For example from people like Joseph Stiglitz, Paul Krugman and Naomi Klein and that many see the Washington Consensus as a good description of neoliberal ideas, and that is Washington as in the capital of the US.

But I’m not saying that it is commonly used in the US -

Neo-liberalism is a set of economic policies that have become widespread during the last 25 years or so. Although the word is rarely heard in the United States, you can clearly see the effects of neo-liberalism here as the rich grow richer and the poor grow poorer.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

What I’m wonder is why is it rarely used seeing that the US has suffered because of neoliberal ideas?

So why isn’t this term being used more in the mainstream American media, could it be because if it was these ideas would be noticed as a distinct ideology rather than as a ‘norm’ without an alternative? I mean it has basically been accepted by much of the two major political groups in the US with the only argument over how much neoliberalism to apply?

 

You're right, LetLovin, I was not aware of how well Ron Paul is doing.

Here's a video of what happened when a Senator announced his support for Mitt Romney at the Alaska State Convention:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNcDCaFFlw8"]Wanna know what happens when a senator endorses Romney at the Alaska State Convention? [HD] - YouTube

 

Part of the establishments method is to mask the support that Ron Paul has. The whole campaign the media has manipulated the data to make it look like he's never had a chance. People want to vote for winners. They want to win. even if they think someone's in the right, they will cast their vote for who they think will win the race. Obviously I'm not talking about the folks found here on HF, but that mentality is found all over.

Hate him or love him, he's picking up a lot of support and people want to hear what he has to say. His voice will last longer than his body, and he's not going to give up.

 

Oh how surprising right wingers braying for another right winger.

The question isn’t if he has support but should he be supported - I mean look at this thread there are a number of Ron Paul supporters but not one of them has seems able to defend his right wing libertarian ideas from the many criticisms levelled at them.

To me if ideas cannot be defended in any rational or reasonable way then they are frankly bad ideas.