Would YOU vote for RON PAUL

And I will be eating breakfast now. But I will return shortly to continue our discussion.

 

storch

I’m sorry but you don’t seem to be reading my posts which is making discussion with you difficult.

I’ll try and put it as simply as I can in the hope you’ll try and understand –

I could absolutely hate and loath something, but rationally that wouldn’t mean I’d replace it with something even worse.

But that’s the problem you don’t seem to be thinking rationally. To you this thing is a crime but to me the bigger crime would be to replace it with something worse.

You I’m sure would claim it wouldn’t be worse, but you have put up no rational or reasonable argument to back that theory up only assertions.

 

1800 i suppose. When our country was still a legitimate democracy and our rights were protected and defended by the government. Because that is their job, not to tax us and throw us in jail for smoking stuff that grows in the ground! And to get involved in unpopular wars with what are most likely drug cartels. Why are we in the middle east? opium!

 

You what? That was when there was a property qualification in most places that limited most people’s ability to vote (didn’t start being challenged until 1812 woman didn’t get the vote until 1920) and slavery still existed (non white got the vote officially in 1870 but unofficially many were not given the chance, and it needed the 1965 voting act to make the US into a modern democracy)

 

Yes, to me it is a crime; you've got that right. But you still haven't said it. So why don't you just come out and say it? There is an ongoing theft that no one is doing anything about.

You are the one who made the analogy that turning off the flow of our money so that it doesn't end up in the hands of the criminals would be like jumping out of a plane at 20,000 feet without a parachute. That doesn't make sense.

So, why don't you describe for everyone exactly what will happen during that fall. And desrcribe--without analogy--the result of such an impact. So far, it's just a boogey man without shape or form. Give it a shape and form that everyone can see.

 

Oh my dear storch things would go a lot easier if you read my posts.

Thing is if you misread things they often don’t make sense- My point was that just hoping that something possibly, might, on the off chance, turn out good from just getting rid of the Fed and then seeing what happens, which you seem to be putting forward as an ideas is like jumping out of a plane at 20,000 feet without a parachute.

I don’t know but nor do you but the worrying thing is you don’t seem to care.

I’m reprinting what I said in Post 819.

Now you and many others seem to want to remove the existing central banking system of the US and I say fine, but what would you have in its place.

Some I’ve talked [to] seem to want to replace it with a theory, and let us be blunt here a fantasy, of the ‘free market’ when there never has been and never will be a ‘free market’. Under such a system all that would happen is wealth would have even greater powers than now and an even greater ability to control things in its interests to the detriment of others. It should also be remembered that in many nations it was the instability of financial systems that caused the emergence central bank in the first place.

The other suggestion I’ve seen is that Congress would have direct control, that it would in effect become the central bank. With the prospect that every decision taken normally by a central bank would be voted on. I’m sorry but given the political system in the US and the dysfunctionality that it has lead to in Congress I find that idea rather perplexing.

My problem with the right wing libertarian argument about the FED is that they seem to want to take a hammer to the system without having a viable alternative and what’s worse they don’t seem to care that they don’t have a viable alternative it seems like another case of ideological beliefs outweighing rational thought.

 

Oh my dear Balbus (when in Rome, right?),

It's not as complicated as you are attempting to make it.

First, I'm glad to see that you're on board with the rest of us when it comes to the thievery. Secondly, it's also good to hear that you recognize that the same thieves who illegally turned the creation of money over to yet more thieves cannot be trusted either.

I say we create our own money on a community level, allow the idea to spread, and allow it be enacted in more communities, eventually phasing out the thieves. What is your problem with that?

 

Excerpt from the link below:

Here in Ithaca, New York, we've begun to gain control of the social and environmental effects of commerce by issuing over $68,000 of our own local paper money, since 1991. Thousands of purchases and many new friendships have been made with this cash, and several million dollars value of local trading has been added to the Grassroots National Product.

We print our own money because we've seen Federal dollars come to town, shake a few hands, then leave to buy rainforest lumber and fight wars. Ithaca's HOURS, by contrast, stay in our region to help us hire each other. While dollars make us increasingly dependent on multinational corporations and bankers, HOURS reinforce community trading and expand commerce which is more accountable to our concerns for ecology and social justice.


http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/cc/CED.html

 

Unfortunately creating alternative currency is prohibited by Federal laws
Remember Waco,lol
Chubs

 

66 HOUR systems in North America, with at least 42 more forming.

Getting out of the grip of the den of thieves is a process, and it involves an agreement among the citizens. It's not an either/or proposition of "be robbed," or "be devastated." Think "process."

The interest paid to the Fed benefits the Fed banks, not humanity! If they charged no interest as the Congess would not if it were to do its job, we would basically have an HOUR system, based on community, intstead of an "every man for himself" mentality.

 

chubbimale,

Are you sure?

http://newmoneysystem.org/faq.php

 

The chinese are studying it, too.

Ithaca's local paper money, the Ithaca HOUR, has brought hundreds of media, tourists, activists, academics and dignitaries to Ithaca, since 1991. Two years ago, Madame Mitterand, former First Lady of France (and international socialist) visited for a day, preparatory to her visit to the President of the World Bank. Government officials and nonprofit representatives have purchased and spent HOURS, while speaking with residents about how local currency benefits them, and our community.

Last October, HOURS were visited by a high-ranking official of the government of the People's Republic of China. Wen Tiejun wears several tall hats. He's Chief Economist of the People's Bank's think tank, Senior Consultant of the State Information Center, chief of Economic Reform and Director of Research for Rural Development. He arrived from Beijing to assess the practicality and legality of Ithaca's local currency. His report will be delivered to the President of the People's Bank, Dai Xianglong, who will deliver it directly to China's Premier, Zhu Rongji. Accompanying Wen Tiejun was a professor of sociology from Hong Kong, who returns to Ithaca this November.

Their visit was particularly exciting because it reaffirmed, at the highest level, the critique of global capital which has been one of the many reasons we've traded our own money. Wen Tiejun said that the Chinese government has become profoundly concerned about the domination of world trade by U.S. dollars. They understand that the dollar's value is artificially inflated by U.S. military control of oil regions, extraction of irreplaceable natural resources, and by high consumer debt. "When the bubble breaks," he said, "there will be chaos in markets. Millions of our rural poor could starve."

http://www.lightlink.com/hours/ithacahours/archive/0101.html

 

The illusion of getting to pick a new master every 4 years doesn't make you any less of a slave.

Government is the enemy....all government.... including Ron Paul

 

Dude, what?

You need to study some history.

The US sucked dick, a few landed voters had fun while the government let some states decide to allow slavery based on racism, and genocide for other races. Was around the time of that fun with the alien and sedition acts..... The definition of a US citizen was defined by the naturalization act of 1792..... Which required you to be free and white to be counted as anything......

 

Storch

You seem to be moving the goal posts mid game.

This implies you are not going to abolish the Fed - you are hoping to undermine it so it withers away?

I’ve got nothing against some types of local barter systems but I don’t think they are in any way going to replace an already established national currency unless the national currency itself becomes worthless and at that point that country is in real, real deep shit.

Now I believe there are over 3000 Counties or Independent Cities in the US. For your idea to work all of them would have to have their own currency. Just to travel across America could be extremely frustrating with constant trading of one currency for another (which always involves a fee), but imagine trying do businesses or trade under such a system? I remember the EU before the single currency and that was bad enough and there were far fewer currencies than 3000+. Even if it was limited to just state areas they’d still be 50 independent currencies, with differing values and stability levels. Then there are whole load of other considerations and difficulties.

I actually think it would be easier to either reform the Fed or replace it with a better Central Banking system.

 

Roo

Yes i said something similar, it makes me wonder about how much awareness there is of history and how the knowledge or lack of it can affect a persons political ideas.

 

Balbus,

I am not moving the goal posts in mid-game. Besides, I see this more as the end-game.

The discussion has logically moved on to a discussion of the Federal Reserve being an immense drain on people. How could it not have. That is not even debatable, as it is an established fact. I don't know what you have against the idea of income tax being used for the betterment of the country instead of being used to pay the interest on money that the Fed printed up for virtually nothing and loaned to us at interest.

You said: "I’ve got nothing against some types of local barter systems but I don’t think they are in any way going to replace an already established national currency unless the national currency itself becomes worthless and at that point that country is in real, real deep shit." If you've read my posts, I have already established the fact that the activities of the Fed has caused a 3000% increase in the money supply, resulting in a great devaluation of the dollar. Do you recall this:

http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/Billinfo/...morials/4010-Inflation by federal reserve.pdf

The dollar is now worth about 3 cents. How worthless do you need it to become before your "unless that national currency, itself, becomes worthless . . ." will apply? You know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Very wise words. It works with disease as well as parasites. And I would reiterate: You don't reform criminal activity; you remove it. Anything short of that will amount to rewarding it! That is a fact, believe it or not.

The discussion has also logically moved on to a discussion of a solution to this drain. I don't recall you admitting that this drain is illegal. I wish you would. I really do . . .

Also, unlike the competing currencies of the current global financial structure, local currencies would be transferable with little, to no, loss through exchange, as there will be no central thief. And the whole process of "out with the old and illegal, and in with the new and ethical" would be tweaked and corrected as needed along the way.

If you're going to hold a system to the standard of perfection, I suggest you start with the present system, and direct your disapproval there! I don't understand why you're not doing that. After all, according to your own criteria as to when to replace a national currency--"when that national currency becomes worthless"--the time is now. That is, unless you're waiting for the dollar to lose its last three cents of value. But why on earth would you want to do that. Why wait?

You talk about a fall without a parachute. You understand that the debt is hopelessly increasing exponentially. You now need to expand your definition of "a fall" to include the one that is hidden by the creation of money--and inflation. A dollar worth three cents should indicate how close we are to impact. And no, there's no parachute.

 

Sorry storch but I’m finding it hard to keep track or understand your up and down and side to side arguments.

Are you now saying that you would just abolish the Fed and then see what would happen (the jumping out of the airplane without a parachute scenario)?

As to the US dollar being worth only 3 cents - thing is that one pound Stirling will get me $1.56, a Euro will get me $1.32 and an Australian dollar is worth slightly less than its US counterpart at $1.04. If you know where to buy dollars for only 3 cents you’d make a killing on the foreign exchange markets.

As to the debt I’ve already said - After WWII the US’s national debt was up to around 117% of GDP it was brought down in just 36 years less than one generation (by 1981 it was down to 32.5%) until successive right wing and neo-liberal policies (tax cuts and anti-communist military spending) from the 1980 onward increased it cumulating in the profligate spending and tax cuts of the Bush Admin. At the same time the free market ideology (deregulation, hollowing out of manufacturing and a belief that the ‘new’ markets were safe) set up the financial sector for a fall and has caused the debt to rise to around 80-90% of GDP.

The way to get out of your hole is to stop following the failed right wing, neo-liberal, free market ideology that got you into the hole.

I think I need to repeat once again - My problem with the right wing libertarian argument about the FED is that they seem to want to take a hammer to the system without having a viable alternative and what’s worse they don’t seem to care that they don’t have a viable alternative it seems like another case of ideological beliefs outweighing rational thought.

 

Sorry, Balbus, but you are not understanding what is propping up the dollar. When everyone drops the dollar as the reserve currency, what do you imagine will be the result? You need to study the dynamics of inflation to understand what the Fed has done.

If the Fed did not keep printing up money out of thin air, tell me what you believe would happen.

You should try looking at it like this: It's like if you keep running out of money, and you keep borrowing more and more to keep yourself from running out, thereby going further and further into debt, while at the same time incurring more interest to be paid on that debt, which you can never hope to keep up with, what do think will happen to the value of your money? Do you believe that all will be well despite that? You need to learn the difference between "owned" money and "owed" money. I don't think you understand the difference even though I have posted it for you a couple of times.

You understand that oil is the only thing backing the U.S. dollar, don't you. If not, let me know, and I will go into that. Or, you could just google it. I'd prefer that you google it. That's what google is for, after all.

A lot of people try to present things in a way that is contrary to how things really are. If the Congress illegally turns over the responsibility for printing money "interest-free" to a conglomerate of for-profit banks who are going to charge interest, the result is a no-brainer--we lose lots and lots of money for no good reason. So, I think you need to explain to me why you don't see that this is a problem of magnitude. It is so clear!

I talked about phasing out the Fed by the introduction of a "legitimate" system, and not another illegal entity out for profits at the expense of workers.

 

This is from 2007

_____________________________________________

A real U.S. dollar is defined as 1/20 ounce of gold, or about an ounce of silver.


But starting in 1913, the U.S. Treasury and Federal Reserve began a slow process of redefining the "dollar" -- from representing a weight measurement of pure precious metals -- to representing public confidence in the U.S. government.
The result: today's "dollar" retains a mere 3 cents of its original buying power in relation to gold. Three pennies! Stated in reverse, 1/20 of an ounce of gold (at $650/oz.) will cost you $32.50 today, instead of just $1, as it did 75 years ago. Sad, but true.

"Over the last century the U.S. dollar has been transformed from an 'IOU gold' into an 'IOU Nothing,'" according to John Exter, former Fed economist. If you can remain optimistic about the dollar's future, I congratulate you. Your faith in the tinkering of men with "IOU nothing" money far surpasses mine, which is limited to faith in God up above... and faith in real money, gold and silver, here below. -db

http://www.swissamerica.com/article.php?art=03-2007/200703231220f.txt

INFLATION – WHO SAYS IT’S DEAD?
88% EROSION OF PURCHASING POWER – AND CONTINUING​

- a dollar in 1950 will buy only 12 cents worth of goods today, 88% less than before –

Inflation in my adult years increased average prices 1,000% or more -
example 1: a postage stamp in the 1950s cost 3 cents; today’s cost is 41 cents – 1,266% inflation;

example 2: a gallon of 90 Octane full-service gasoline cost 18 cents before; today it is $3.05 for self-service – 1,870 % inflation;

example 3: a house in 1959 cost $14,100; today’s median price is $213,000 – 1,400% inflation;

example 4: a dental crown used to cost $40; today it’s $1,100 – 2,750% inflation;


example 5: an ice cream cone in 1950 cost 5 cents; today its $2.50 – 4,900% inflation;

example 6: monthly government Medicare insurance premiums paid by seniors was $5.30 in 1970; its now $93.50 – 1,664% inflation; (and up 70% past 5 years)

example: several generations ago a person worked 1.4 months per year to pay for government; he now works 5 months.
And in the past, one wage-earner families lived well and built savings with minimal debt, many paying off their home and college-educating children without loans. How about today?
Few citizens know that a few years ago government changed how they measure and report inflation, as if that would stop it – - but families know better when they pay their bills for food, medical costs, energy, property taxes, insurance and try to buy a house.

Is inflation a threat to society? Consider this famous quote:
“There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.” Lord John Maynard Keynes (1883-1946), renowned British economist.

DEFINITION OF INFLATION:
Inflation is the loss of a constant purchasing value of the dollar,
caused by an increase out of ‘thin air’ of the supply of money and debt creation by the financial system.

http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/inflation-–-1950-dollar-worth-only-12-cents-today/