womyn are tools?

Does this need any commentary? *sigh*

 

RE: Your awareness of world events and world history is so small that you need examples of male dysfunction.

Yeah. but it's interesting you never provide any, just say that even a six year old can do it. So do it, or are you only 5?

RE: Logic: We should consider some of the hidden variables that might lead to a mother becoming abusive...

But you reject the opposite argument, I just said the inverse, basically. You reject that a man's root cause of violence could be physical abuse by the mother, which is known to psychiatry. Basically, you twist it around to "which man is the root cause of this?"

RE: 1: Existing in a male-dominated world where violence is the norm.

You really think men run everything?

RE: 2: Traditionally being forced to worship a God (a male figure that must be feared, loved and respected all at the same time).

I had no idea we had a state-enforced religion which had mandated worship.

RE: I once knew a girl from Alabama who used to cut herself. Why? Because her parents were abusive towards her (and her sisters).

The plural of anecdote is not data.

RE: Fear and respect? Sounds familiar? Aren't those things that males demand of other males, women, children and animals? Isn't that what gangster culture is all about? Isn't that what Saddam Hussein murdering "his own people" is all about? Isn't that what George Bush's shock and awe bombardment was all about? Fear and respect.

And of course, gangster culture, Saddam Hussein etc. are all men.

RE: Perpetuating the myth that men are created to dominate and control and as God used to say "I will give you that women as a slave and you can go take some land from those people by force... You must serve me. Serve me and I will look after you. You will have many slaves and many riches"

Where do you read in the Bible that woman was created as a slave? Your lack of comprehension of the religion (which I don't belong to BTW) is staggeringly obvious.

RE: Guilt: It can be used as a powerful weapon by people/entities/deities in order to wreak havoc.

Interesting. It's also a woman's primary mechanism of control.

RE: The pressures on women are enormous. They are enormous now and they were enormous throughout history.

Really. I wasn't aware women worked in the mines, were drafted into wars, etc.

RE: In the years that I've been posting on male-dominated forums I have never heard a single male admit their failings.

When did I not admit any failings? I freely admit I'm a misanthrope and the like. Pardon me for calling women on their crap. If I hear a dumbass statement about a male, I'll call em on that, too. So now you've met one.

Or acknowledge the negative aspects of the male-collective history. In each and every case - your cousins will seek to divert attention away from their poor track-record by trying to shift the blame for anything and everything - onto women.

RE: It doesn't occur to you that overall the female collective history leans greatly towards peace. Women tend to be good peacemakers and their collective history demonstrates this.

Find examples, would you?

RE: The likes of Iron goth will probably respond with "women aren't slaves any longer - they have equal rights now".

No, they do have equal rights, and in many respects more rights. In some arenas women do deal with garbage and prejudice and that isn't right. But in the forum in which we're talking now and the issue we're talking about right now, it isn't about male problems. I'll be more than happy to tear down the stupidity men do when it's the topic of discussion and the point is valid.

RE: Shall we list the countries where women don't have equal rights? Where they don't even have freedom?

I can point out countries where men don't have freedom either. Does that affect/influence anything at all here?

RE: Even there we have age-old male resentment towards women. You see our democratic society exists in a male-dominated world.

Mate you need yer bumps felt. We do NOT live in a male dominated world.

RE: I suggest you stop trying to force women to accept your distorted view that men suffer and women are responsible.

Men do suffer, and women are responsible. There are ALSO ways in which women suffer at the hands of men. For example, there's a rape story in a nearby thread in which I clearly say press charges against the guy dammit, look after yerself, this was not your fault, etc. FAR cry from your supposed ideas about me and my psychology.

But talk down from your pedastal in the hopes of impressing the chicks here, Feathers. Good luck.

 

RE: And why is there such an industry in how to manipulate women?
Just have a look at this site: http://www.getgirls.com/ You can buy lot's of different books and DVDs there, that deal with how to seduce women.

There are a couple of things like that I'm sure, but they're stuff you have to send away for and a niche market.

The Rules was a best seller available in any bookstore. Cosmo at any grocery store. Msn.com is a public site. Oprah is on at prime time.

 

Just in case you think the idea that men work for women's benefit is a new idea, here's an interesting quote. I'll give you the date after.

"It is an amazing thing to see in our city the wife of a shoemaker, or a butcher, or a porter dressed in silk with chains of gold at the throat, with pearls and a ring of good value... and then in contrast to see her husband cutting the meat, all smeared with cow's blood, poorly dressed, or burdened like an ass, clothed from the stuff from which sacks are made... but whoever considers this carefully will find it reasonable, because it is necessary that the lady, even if low-born and humble, be draped with such clothes for her natural excellence and dignity, and that the man less adorned as if a slave, or a little ass, born to her service." - Lucrezia Marinella of Venice, 1600

"What bothers me most is the visible, although often unspoken, thread of contempt that runs through women's conversations about men. The assumption very often is that men are boys who must be outfoxed, manipulated or dealt with in a calculated manner that women rarely use amongst themselves." - Phyllis Theroux, 1986

"Looking at how easy it is for women to treat men in cruel ways is oddly liberating" - Naomi Wolf, 1993 (note: Go women's lib!)

 

dudes can get pwned in relationships too... i know this one dude who got beat on by his girlfriend...

 

Jack Straw - now THERE is some instance in which women have the upper hand.

I know guys whose lives have been ruined by "he hit me" even though the guy didn't and I KNOW HE DIDN'T CAUSE I WAS THERE.

There are jurisdictions in where if a guy simply gently moves a woman out of his way or pushes past her to leave as she's yelling at him, nagging, punching etc. he goes to jail. Automatically, no questions asked. Zero tolerance. Unless it's a cop, in which case the case is referred for voluntary counselling. Double standards, no?

I also know guys beat on by their girlfriends/wives (and more than half of all DVs are instigated by females) and the cops just laugh and walk out. Where are the battered men's shelters? I once sat through a lecture by some woman saying DV is basically caused by male power structure, etc. the same crap Feathers is blowing out his rear end... and by definition no lesbian partner abuse is possible. The lecturer basically said women don't beat men or other women. When an actual lesbian came forward and said "er, sorry, my lover of five years broke my jaw and beat me around a lot" she was flat out called a liar, because if there's no MAN in the situation domestic violence is impossible.... or something.

 

You have a predictable and very typical habit of being too lazy to respond with anything but single-line responses when your arguments are challenged.



"Where are the battered men's shelters? I once sat through a lecture by some woman saying DV is basically caused by male power structure, etc. the same crap Feathers is blowing out his rear end... " - You want protection from violent women do you?



Question:



Do you fear being raped and murdered by women if you walk home alone at night?



I suggest that your derivative and typically arrogant male view is narrowly focused on specific events.



Predictably you use specific and individual examples in order to get the message across that men are ultimately the victims...



Example (example not for you but for the benefit of more intellectually capable forum members):



If I explain to irongoth that overall women are much more loving and peaceful than males (throughout history) then irongoth will respond with something like:



"Yeah well there was this woman I knew who beat her sons and chewed off their legs - you think that's not dysfunctional?"



Irongoth is incapable of stepping back and looking at the overall picture. Each and every angry dysfunctional male exhibits the same inability to think beyond individual incidents or micro-events. They are incapable of considering and taking into account the actions of males throughout history versus women through history. They are only able to think in terms of what takes place here and now and to specific events within our current time-frame. It is a sign of serious dysfunction and it is because of this inability to step back and think beyond micro-events that the male continues to be violent towards women.



You will note that irongoth's overall tone thoughout this thread is one of aggression towards women and "i'm the victim and you're responsible".



History clearly shows that men are more violent than women. Even medical science confirms that males are on the whole - more aggressive than women.



Irongoth will look desperately for any way to shift blame onto women. This is no different to the serial killer who has shifted his own guilt and anger on to women to such a degree that he believes he has a valid mission to kill them.



There are countless males like irongoth on this planet - each one considers himself to be different to the next. Each one considers himself to be a unique individual with valid reasons to judge and condemn women (whilst ignoring all of his own failings).



They INVARIABLY have an inability to think beyond the here and now. To think beyond specific events and to consider the actions of males throughout history. If you dare to suggest that a male shares some responsibility for the actions of the male collective then they will think you're crazy... "why should I be blamed for the actions of a rapist?". While the likes of irongoth can't be expected to take on someone else's guilt - Every male has a responsibility not to perpetuate negative stereotypes about women. Every male shares in the collective history of men whether they like it or not. Thus they have a responsibility to learn from the mistakes of other men and also from the positive aspects of men who have gone before them.



Unfortunately when you have a typical male dysfunction that refuses to consider anyone but himself then he will laugh at the idea that he should consider the actions of those men who have gone before him. People like irongoth are totally fixated on the here and now and to specific events with that time-frame. This is the reason all of his arguments point to SPECIFIC cases where women have been violent or dysfunctional.



The entire basis of his argument can thus be seen as:



"You try to tell me that men are bad and women are good? - How about this woman in kentucky who beat her son over the head with a bible until his head fell off?"



This is an example of someone's inability to judge in a rational way. The statement implies that because he can quote a particular case where a woman was violent - that is somehow proof that overall - women are as violent as men.



I have had similar arguments on another forum today. Some of the examples of male inability to think beyond specific events are shocking!



One of irongoth's male cousins on the forum in question sought to get the same message across (that women were overall as violent as men)... He used the following argument (direct quote):



"at the time of world wars it was mainly women who built the bombs cos there we no men cos they were out there fighting for their fucking homes.. but yeah that's just agressive male behaviour, right "



This particular male believes that - because women in ww2 worked in factories assembling bombs - that this somehow makes them as violent and dysfunctional as the dysfunctional male. And notice that he also seeks to evoke sympathy for the heroic male who was going off to war to "fight for their fucking homes". It doesn't occur to the male in question that just because women are PERSUADED and pressured (by guilt) to build bombs - doesn't make them violent. In WW2 the nazis forced men, women and children into concentration camps. Some of them were forced to work on weapon systems - were those slaves also guilty of being violent?



It is supremely facile and stupid to suggest that women are overall as violent as men because of a specific micro-event where women were sent to factories to build weapons.



The idiot male in question also fails to understand that Winston Churchill, adolf hitler, Josef Stalin were mostly men (Ok they were all men - Women weren't considered intelligent enough to run the country at that time).



So while the idiot male tries to evoke sympathy for the heroic male defending his country? ("there we no men cos they were out there fighting for their fucking homes") - he fails to get the underlying point which is:



"they were out there fighting " - Huh?



"they were out there fighting " - Why were they fighting?



The idiot male will tell you that they were fighting because:



"adolf declared war and the japanese also declared war - we had no choice but to defend our freedom"



The above excuse is what we call a specific event. It is a micro-event within human history. When a male responds in this way (by giving a micro-event as an example) - he genuinely believes that validates and prooves his point.



He misses the underlying point which is that "they were out there fighting "



They were out there fighting... Who was fighting? Was it another war created by women who forced men to fight? (just like waterloo, hastings, the gulf, iraq, vietnam). I suspect men created those wars and created the weapons. At certain micro-points in history then women might also have been persuaded to assemble weapons and to fight. But who's war is it? It's the male's war against other males (not to mention against women and children and cats and dogs as well).



There were no women in prominent positions of power in England, Germany, Russia or the USA in ww2. Women were regarded as incapable of serious man's work. In spite of this rather obvious fact - a male idiot would still try to convince you that women are as violent as men because:



"at the time of world wars it was mainly women who built the bombs cos there we no men cos they were out there fighting for their fucking homes.. but yeah that's just agressive male behaviour, right "



The only part of the idiot's statement that represents the truth is the last part:



"but yeah that's just agressive male behaviour, right "



Yes... That's right. Just aggressive male behaviour. Men waging war against men, women and children yet again. Oh but wait... The likes of Irongoth and his male idiot friends have a counter-argument which prooves that women are in general - as violent as men:



"Didn't you hear about the woman in Alabama who cut off her husband's dick and fed it to the chickens? - And you say men are to blame for the world's problem?"



Yes you idiot. I do. The male collective history is one of violence. Violence on a global scale even in so-called civilised societies.



Women are unsafe to walk the streets at night because?



1: Penguins

2: Cats.

3: Ants.

4: Goats.

5: Ducks.

6: Fish.

7: Crocodiles.

8: Banana skins.

9: Violent men.



And to remind the more cognitive people on this forum of the predicted typical male counter-argument to this?



"yeah well - men are also unsafe to walk the streets at night or haven't you noticed?"



Do the words - "missing" and "point" mean anything to you?



Men are also potentially unsafe to walk the streets at night because of what item from the above list?



Oh but wait - there is another regurgitated defensive response coming:



"Yeah well there was this woman who killed a man in Virginia..."



As if to proove what? That overall women are as violent? Again the idiot male can only "think" in terms of micro-events. He is unable to look at the overall picture and to consider the fact that women are collectively and throughout history - more loving and compassionate than men.



You can quote any number of micro-events. They have no relevance to the overall picture. You could also quote specific micro-events where men are caring and peaceloving. This text isn't about labelling all men as one thing nor is it about labelling all women as another. It is about the collective history of men versus women and any functional doctor or psychologist will agree that men are collectively more violent than women. Men even celebrate violence and war. The idiot male will look for any excuse he can in order to divert attention away from himself... "women also visit airshows and military shows"



The CRUCIAL POINT is that women are born into a violent male dominated world and not the other way around. This world is and has always been male dominated. That in itself is not a pleasant thing for any women to have to deal with given our male history.



Males like irongoth don't give a fuck about such things. All of their focus of attention must be "I am the victim... Look what women have done to me".



Finally I would like to quote from another idiot male argument that was posted on another forum today as proof that "women are just as violent” (guilty):



"Well how about Margaret Thatcher? - She was an aggressive leader!"



And your point is? That one sentence is supposed to imply that: "well actually women are as aggressive and violent as men..."



Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Mrs Thatcher born into a MALE DOMINATED WORLD where VIOLENCE is the norm?



Is it not reasonable therefore to conclude that Mrs Thatcher's actions/character/behaviour would have been shaped by her struggle to survive in that male dominated world?



In spite of all these glaringly obvious things - the idiot male still looks for any excuse to shift the blame onto women.

 

RE: You have a predictable and very typical habit of being too lazy to respond with anything but single-line responses when your arguments are challenged.

No, I asked you for information to clarify your so-called point. Yet instead of answering it you talk bollocks from on high and then insult me personally out the door.

RE: - You want protection from violent women do you?

Yeah, I'd like to know if my spouse suddenly decided to attack me with a metal object that I'd end up having my concerns as legally protected etc. as a woman's would. If my wife turned out to be hitting me and the kids it'd take a minor act of God for me to keep the house and kids.

RE: Do you fear being raped and murdered by women if you walk home alone at night?

Actually, I was date-raped my first time. I also, by the way, do fear a lot of things with respect to women, and they are legitimate fears. False rape accusation, false beating accusation - shall I continue?

RE: Predictably you use specific and individual examples in order to get the message across that men are ultimately the victims...

In some ways women are victims, in other men are victims. We do a great deal to try and redress injustices towards women - but men who complain are wimps, whiny, weak, etc. or their concerns are dismissed.

RE: If I explain to irongoth that overall women are much more loving and peaceful than males (throughout history) then irongoth will respond with something like:

That's bull right there. What I asked you for was examples. And you've given none.

RE: They are incapable of considering and taking into account the actions of males throughout history versus women through history.

Methinks you would do well to pause for a second, and rather than think we all accept "men are evil women are peaceful" you give examples of this cause I can certainly give you examples of peaceful all male societies and vile, warlike and nasty feminist matriarchies, yeah?

RE: They are only able to think in terms of what takes place here and now and to specific events within our current time-frame. It is a sign of serious dysfunction and it is because of this inability to step back and think beyond micro-events that the male continues to be violent towards women.

No, I think the history is irrelevant. Just because your great great grandmother got paid ten cents for every dollar for males doesn't mean I owe you ANYTHING in an environment where both genders get equal pay for equal work.

RE: You will note that irongoth's overall tone thoughout this thread is one of aggression towards women and "i'm the victim and you're responsible".

No, more towards the attitude that's prevalent, basically that men are stupid, facile, egocentric, mentally and emotionally retarded creatures that must be nursemaided and controlled.

RE: History clearly shows that men are more violent than women. Even medical science confirms that males are on the whole - more aggressive than women.

Actually recent studies have shown that girls are just as nasty as men, only historically we've tended to look away - like for example Lizzie Borden.

RE: There are countless males like irongoth on this planet - each one considers himself to be different to the next. Each one considers himself to be a unique individual with valid reasons to judge and condemn women (whilst ignoring all of his own failings).

I see. Pointing out gender inequality is proof of my own failings. Right. I'll use that one on the next feminist who demands money or privilege out of me for some imagined slight.

RE: If you dare to suggest that a male shares some responsibility for the actions of the male collective then they will think you're crazy... "why should I be blamed for the actions of a rapist?".

Actually that's a good question you raise. Why do I share in the guilt of rapists though I've never been one? Are you saying I should admit to being a rapist cause I'm male like other rapists?

RE: While the likes of irongoth can't be expected to take on someone else's guilt - Every male has a responsibility not to perpetuate negative stereotypes about women.

Deal. Provided you get rid of all the anti-male bashing stuff you think is so cute. Shirts for girls that say "Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them." Jokes from Roseanne Barr about shooting a man 37 times "I admire her restraint". Cute Valentine's Day cards that joke about castration. Every ad on TV depicting men as incapable and stupid, or every sitcom that depicts the husband as a henpecked, ineffective retard (complete with smart, sassy with-it housewife). When will this happen? Oh sorry, I'm whining again right? Or maybe your blanket statements that say that males are responsible for war, violence, rape, etc.

RE: Every male shares in the collective history of men whether they like it or not.

Just like I supposedly owe restitution to African Americans for events that took place 200 years ago I had nothing to do with?

RE: Thus they have a responsibility to learn from the mistakes of other men and also from the positive aspects of men who have gone before them.

According to you there are none.

RE: This is an example of someone's inability to judge in a rational way. The statement implies that because he can quote a particular case where a woman was violent - that is somehow proof that overall - women are as violent as men.

I can do you one better and quote entire studies that show women to be as nasty, violent and destructive as men. If not more, maybe.

RE: One of irongoth's male cousins on the forum in question

I have no male cousins.

RE: It is supremely facile and stupid to suggest that women are overall as violent as men because of a specific micro-event where women were sent to factories to build weapons.

No, but there have been studies that show that women are as violent and evil as men - just that we have people who suggest that isn't the case. Remember, Karla Homolka almost got away with murder entirely cause she played the "boo hoo hoo I'm just a little girl" card.

RE: also fails to understand that Winston Churchill, adolf hitler, Josef Stalin were mostly men (Ok they were all men - Women weren't considered intelligent enough to run the country at that time).

What about now? Guess which vote brought Bush into power? A major factor was the female vote.

RE: So while the idiot male tries to evoke sympathy for the heroic male defending his country? ("there we no men cos they were out there fighting for their fucking homes") - he fails to get the underlying point which is:

Who else was? Not the women, they sent us in to fight, just like they send us in to do every thankless, nasty, violent or dangerous business.

RE: He misses the underlying point which is that "they were out there fighting "

And you make the mistake of trying to generalise specific events (of your own choosing) to a macro-view of reality.

RE: They were out there fighting... Who was fighting? Was it another war created by women who forced men to fight? (just like waterloo, hastings, the gulf, iraq, vietnam).

Women run the households, mate. They have forever.

RE: That's right. Just aggressive male behaviour.

So women aren't aggressive?

RE: "Didn't you hear about the woman in Alabama who cut off her husband's dick and fed it to the chickens? - And you say men are to blame for the world's problem?"

No, more like "hey wow there are peer-reviewed studies that show that women ARE as violent as men."

RE: Yes you idiot. I do. The male collective history is one of violence. Violence on a global scale even in so-called civilised societies.

You have a very ethnocentric view of the world.

RE: "yeah well - men are also unsafe to walk the streets at night or haven't you noticed?"

What about ways in which men are threatened? You pick the same things over and over. Men start wars. Men hang around dark streets. This does not mean women don't do other things. Or aren't responsible for as much aggression, violence and misery. Or does the name Loreena Bobbitt not mean anything to you?

RE: The CRUCIAL POINT is that women are born into a violent male dominated world and not the other way around.

The world is NOT male dominated.

RE: Males like irongoth don't give a fuck about such things. All of their focus of attention must be "I am the victim... Look what women have done to me".

You seem to be attacking me personally over and over. Not only is that ad hominem but a violation of forum rules. Back off.

RE: Is it not reasonable therefore to conclude that Mrs Thatcher's actions/character/behaviour would have been shaped by her struggle to survive in that male dominated world?

Nope.

 

Deja Vu. More later..........

 

http://www.xyonline.net/Maleviolence.shtml

Remember, three out of the seven jailers at Abu Gharib were women... and they were the more creative ones when it came to humiliating and brutalizing inmates...

But wait they were victims of a male culture, right?

 

I don't see the big deal about this thread. If a woman is with a guy who mistreats her, there is a solution: leave him.

I sure don't want a woman who acts as a slave for me. I want a woman who will do things for me because she loves me, not because she fears me or feels obligated.

I would like a woman who is a little submissive with me, but not one who is my slave (unless she wants to be, temporarily).

 

How did this spiral out of control?

Let me comment to the OP - nobody should control anyone else.

Women should not bully men, nor should men bully women. Men should not think a woman's place is in the home, nor should women believe themselves to be divas and therefore to be competed for and waited on hand and foot, controlling the men around her.

 

I think part of this conflict stems from the fact that it is so theoretical. You say men shouldn't expect women to stay in the home, but some women prefer to stay at home and cook, and pump out babies.

Me, I like independent, intelligent women. I don't want a dunce who simply pumps babies out. I want a woman who is attractive, and attractive girls rarely prefer staying at home (although there are exceptions). I don't mind some feminists. But feminists should remember that not all women want to be feminists.

 

LSD, I didn't know you were a chick! Most of your posts are prettty gender neutral. Now I know.......

And, Iron, the thread isn't out of control. If it was, I'd close it. I'm just giving it enough rope.

 

Mags - while on the subject, attachment parenting rocks, keep it up.

 

Does anyone remember what I said about usings specific micro events within our history to imply that women overall are violent?

The above argument can thus be expressed as:

'Yes I know men dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki but Lizzie Borden killed men and that proves women are as nasty as men'.

"We do a great deal to try and redress injustices towards women -" - Once again we see the generous and giving male who really is trying very hard to make things right. Who is this "we" anyways? Your only contribution to this thread has been to ridicule women because you can't enforce your view that men are victims. If you were one of those males who sought to redress the balance and speak out about social injustice towards women then you wouldn't have spent your time posting sarcastic comments and anti-female jokes here, right?

"Do you fear being raped and murdered by women if you walk home alone at night?

Actually, I was date-raped my first time. I also, by the way, do fear a lot of things with respect to women, and they are legitimate fears. False rape accusation, false beating accusation - shall I continue?" - Micro specific examples used again on the illogical basis that quoting a few examples of female dysfunction is proof that women are overall as bad as men.

How about I follow your lead and become the idiot male who uses nothing but micro specific examples?

How would that go? Something like this...

"Methinks you would do well to pause for a second, and rather than think we all accept "men are evil women are peaceful" you give examples of this cause I can certainly give you examples of peaceful all male societies and vile, warlike and nasty feminist matriarchies, yeah?"

You can stop right there my buddy mate fellow idiot male... There was this man in my town who killed his girlfriend and then fled the country. That prooves that men are as violent as women overall.

"No, more towards the attitude that's prevalent, basically that men are stupid, facile, egocentric, mentally and emotionally retarded creatures that must be nursemaided and controlled. " - There was this man posting on a forum who was only able to think in terms of very specific instances which he would then try to apply to the entire female population. This clearly prooves that men are stupid.

"No, I think the history is irrelevant." - You do not think. Therefore the idea that you think the history is irrelevant does not make sense. It also means that men are as stupid as penguins.

"I see. Pointing out gender inequality is proof of my own failings. Right. I'll use that one on the next feminist who demands money or privilege out of me for some imagined slight." - You're a whining idiot because women have been oppressed and enslaved for countless centuries (again that doesn't equate to ALL women have been enslaved because clearly there are micro specific instances where women enjoyed freedom) and yet you complain about inequality because women in your distorted perception might be in danger of receiving more privileges than you - a redkneck forest chump.

"Actually that's a good question you raise. Why do I share in the guilt of rapists though I've never been one? Are you saying I should admit to being a rapist cause I'm male like other rapists? " - Ladies and gentlemen of the courtroom - was it not clearly explained to this man on a previous occassion? Did I not explain it in very simple terms that an ironheaded goth might understand? Should I therefore take you to be representitive of male intellect in general? If that is acceptable then I must conclude that all men are goth-stupid.

"RE: It is supremely facile and stupid to suggest that women are overall as violent as men because of a specific micro-event where women were sent to factories to build weapons.

No, but there have been studies that show that women are as violent and evil as men - just that we have people who suggest that isn't the case. Remember, Karla Homolka almost got away with murder entirely cause she played the "boo hoo hoo I'm just a little girl" card." - Which can be translated and expressed in the following way:

'I gothironjaw accept that it is unreasonable to judge women as violent because they were sent to factories to built weapons. Yes... But the proof of their extreme violence is as follows: Karla Homolka almost got away with murder. This prooves that women are just as violent as men, perhaps even more so!"

Do you see what I mean about the irongothhead's inability to think beyond micro-specific events?

Ladies and gentlemen... You know and I know that gothironjaw still hasn't grasped the significance of trying to force a square peg into a round hole. The idea that we can simply forget history (irongothjaw has no memory of history remember ("I don't care about history... I'm not even sure what it is? Does it have something to do with your grandma?") and quote specific instances of female dysfunction as if to proove: "well that just goes to show that women are as evil as men, yes?"

If we were to adopt goth9iron's view that all women can be judged as dysfunctional as men on the basis of the actions of Lizzie Borden while ignoring (very conveniently) the actions of men throughout history (because remember gothironhead doesn't believe we should take historical events into consideration) - Then we could say that all dogs are dangerous and should be destroyed because that dog in my street bit that child. Or we could say that all jewish people were taking our money and getting rich therefore we should remove them from society. We could say that all gothironheads are stupid on the basis of one particular one posting on hipforums.

Gothironhead thinks all males are being condemned. He is naturally upset because he feels intimidated. He doesn't seem to grasp the point at all.

I'm not saying that all men are violent nor am I implying that all women are non-violent (jeez! You'd think the way gothzinc was getting all upset that we were suggesting no women were ever violent?!).

I fully acknowledge that there are dysfunctional women as well as dysfunctional males.

I acknowledge that dysfunctional mothers have created dysfunctional serial killer sons.

But quoting micro-specific examples and implying that women overall are thus as violent as men is just plain stupid.

Irongoth has evidence to show us that women are more violent than men. This would explain why so many men are being raped and murdered walking home alone at night (or after getting into a taxi).

This would explain why most predators who abduct and murder children just happen to be female, right? The instances where men abduct and murder children are very small.

Do you know how many men were raped last year on their way home by women? The figures are shocking. I mean we're talking about girls as young as 7 raping and murdering 30 and 40 year old men! Something really needs to be done about it so we men can feel safe again.

Oh... Did I mention that Ironhead has evidence which shows women are more violent than men?

There comes a point when you have to accept that arguing with a stupid person is a waste of time. That point hasn't arrived yet... There is a part of me that wants to continue to learn about the cognitive distortions and social dysfunction of an irongoth.

 

RE: Does anyone remember what I said about usings specific micro events within our history to imply that women overall are violent?

Women overall ARE violent. That doesn't need to be proven by a micro event -there's more than enough evidence, both through studies and in history, to demonstrate that the "common knowledge" that women aren't evil and men are is patently and outright wrong. But what I was bringing up was this - when the women started brutalizing the criminals they were far more inventive and dare I say thinking it through a lot more?

RE: "We do a great deal to try and redress injustices towards women -" - Once again we see the generous and giving male who really is trying very hard to make things

"We" meaning all of us, of both sexes, but carry on your rant.

RE: ridicule women because you can't enforce your view that men are victims. If

I'm raising a valid point. All I said was that it was rich that this woman took umbrage that a man might joke about a woman being a tool or workhorse, but women expect that all the time.

RE: you were one of those males who sought to redress the balance and speak out about social injustice towards women then you wouldn't have spent your time posting sarcastic comments and anti-female jokes here, right?

There are more than enough people talking about injustice to women, none talking about the inverse.

RE: Micro specific examples used again on the illogical basis that quoting a few examples of female dysfunction is proof that women are overall as bad as men.

Well, hang on - here you are talking micro-examples again - Hiroshima, etc. whereas you've provided no proof there is this organized male collective that works to produce violence and mayhem. The fact that the women vote in the war and the men go and fight it means that the women tend to have others do their dirty work - like the woman who goads her boyfriend into beating up the other guy in the bar she didn't like looking at her. But then again that's a microexample right?

RE: You can stop right there my buddy mate fellow idiot male... There was this man in my town who killed his girlfriend and then fled the country. That prooves that men are as violent as women overall.

If you don't like that argument style, then why don't you do this? Find an example of a peaceful wonderful matriarchy. Bodicaea was a peaceloving vegan homeschooling no wait she was a warrior queen. The Amazons! They were well known for, oh, wait. Killing men. Never mind. Anthropological evidence shows that more matriarchal societies like the Aboriginal ones here simply meant it was the women quietly dictating to the figurehead male to send the others to fight for more territory.

RE: You're a whining idiot because women have been oppressed and enslaved for countless centuries (again that doesn't equate to ALL women have been enslaved because clearly there are micro specific instances where women enjoyed freedom)

Men have endured their own slavery. If we're going to talk about sauce for the goose let's talk about sauce for the gander.

RE: and yet you complain about inequality because women in your distorted perception might be in danger of receiving more privileges than you - a redkneck forest chump.

More like, I think it the height of chutzpah to put out a directive "no white males need apply for this job" under the guise of anti-racism.

RE: - Ladies and gentlemen of the courtroom - was it not clearly explained to this man on a previous occassion? Did I not explain it in very simple terms that an ironheaded goth might understand? Should I therefore take you to be representitive of male intellect in general? If that is acceptable then I must conclude that all men are goth-stupid.

So is that yes or no?

RE: Yes... But the proof of their extreme violence is as follows: Karla Homolka almost got away with murder. This prooves that women are just as violent as men, perhaps even more so!"

Are you aware of who Karla Homolka is and how she worked the system, like many other women? We're now finding out it's not that men are violent and women are not, but that female violence is underreported and underpunished and male violence the inverse.

RE: Do you see what I mean about the irongothhead's inability to think beyond micro-specific events?

Then provide proof of a non-micro-specific event. Show me causally that there is a male collective that is organised to create all the violence in the world, and I will immediately not only agree with you but insist on a matriarchy.

RE: can simply forget history (irongothjaw has no memory of history remember ("I don't care about history... I'm not even sure what it is? Does it have something to do with your grandma?") and quote specific instances of female dysfunction as if to proove: "well that just goes to show that women are as evil as men, yes?"

No, buddy - I'm saying you can stop whining about slavery because it ended in the 1800s. Not to forget it happened, but stop suggesting that it's a factor in modern day life.

RE: If we were to adopt goth9iron's view that all women can be judged as dysfunctional as men on the basis of the actions of Lizzie Borden while ignoring (very conveniently) the actions of men throughout history (because remember gothironhead doesn't believe we should take historical events into consideration) -

You have a real way of twisting words - almost to the point that I'm concerned you literally don't understand the arguments in question.

You spouted a load of rubbish about there being this organized male collective throughout all of recorded history that has deliberately engendered etc. violence. How you got on this topic from the OP is beyond me. I've asked you to prove it, not through micro-events, but show a consistent organised pattern. That there is some male illuminati or Masonic lodge or whatever that's controlled male history and made us all automatons in a hive mind as you suggest.

RE: Then we could say that all dogs are dangerous and should be destroyed because that dog in my street bit that child.

You're getting close to arguing all men need to be exterminated to make world peace happen.

RE: Gothironhead thinks all males are being condemned. He is naturally upset because he feels intimidated. He doesn't seem to grasp the point at all.

Be very very careful when you start trying to discern motive. I neither feel intimidated nor am I upset. I am merely repeating fact that is not obvious to many people here. Most women have no problems nagging to get the lawn cut and simply expect the bread to be won, the lawns mowed, the rats exterminated etc. without question but whine they have to wash dishes as part of this arrangement. They claim that cooking, cleaning and raising children is drudgery. Which it is. But they conveniently ignore that while they crow that to replace a "woman" you'd need $100,000 a year (to hire a cook, maid, prostitute etc) you'd need the equivalent to replace a "man" (lawn care, mechanic, exterminator, breadwinner, etc.)

RE: But quoting micro-specific examples and implying that women overall are thus as violent as men is just plain stupid.

I'm claiming you have to take it on a case by case basis. Some stuff, like being more competitive, not following directions when driving etc. is common to almost all males. Likewise for females and that we do tend to do rotten things to each other.

RE: Irongoth has evidence to show us that women are more violent than men. This would explain why so many men are being raped and murdered walking home alone at night (or after getting into a taxi).

As violent.

Hey, if you look at the stats 81% of fatal child abuse is inflicted on children by women.

RE:This would explain why most predators who abduct and murder children just happen to be female, right? The instances where men abduct and murder children are very small.

Yeah, actually.

RE: Do you know how many men were raped last year on their way home by women? The figures are shocking. I mean we're talking about girls as young as 7 raping and murdering 30 and 40 year old men! Something really needs to be done about it so we men can feel safe again.

Most rapes are someone the victim knows or is related to. And the stats are starting to show more and more women behaving the same way. Mind you, a guy who grooms and preys on a 9 year old girl will die in prison (unless he's rich) whereas the inverse, ooh Mrs. Robinson! How daring!

RE: Oh... Did I mention that Ironhead has evidence which shows women are more violent than men?

You betcha.

RE: There comes a point when you have to accept that arguing with a stupid person is a waste of time. That point hasn't arrived yet... There is a part of me that wants to continue to learn about the cognitive distortions and social dysfunction of an irongoth.

There comes a time when you need to recognise that you're crossing the line from trying to dissect an argument (which you can't do) to attacking the person, which is (if you look up logical fallacy) referred to as an ad hominem logical fallacy.

 

Getting back to this thread, one thought that crosses my mind is that what goes around comes around. Let's face it, the men who want women in the kitchen and barefoot are generally less educated. It's a well known fact that education makes people more liberal and tolerant in certain ways. So, a guy with this attitude likely has his own problems.

I once heard a man say he thought women should stay home and take care of the children. This guy filed for bankruptcy and lacks a college education. He is your typical welfare Democrat who expects government handouts (no offense to Democrats).

So, women shouldn't be upset with these attitudes. People pay when they have a bad attitude in life.

Also, I don't think women are powerless, completely innocent, or are victims. There are industries based on the psychological manipulation of both sexes (I am pretty well-versed in this).

Men frequently use women as sex objects, and women use guys -- I won't use the cliche and say for money, which I think is only partially true and in many cases not true -- as status symbols. You see this in Hollywood: "Who will make me the most popular?" You have both sexes using each other all of the time.

 

"You spouted a load of rubbish about there being this organized male collective throughout all of recorded history that has deliberately engendered etc. violence" - No I didn't. This prooves you don't understand my words. Look through my threads and tell me where it says there is a male collective that deliberately creates violence. In fact there are such groups of males that deliberately use violence to control - the mafia is one example. Freemasons are another. Armies and government death-squads are another. But the simple truth is you misunderstood my meaning when I spoke about the male collective. You see I didn't use the term: organised male collective. If you were as smart as you think you are then you would have realised that "male collective" simply refers to males collectively and does not imply organised violence.

"Hey, if you look at the stats 81% of fatal child abuse is inflicted on children by women. " - What stats? "if you look at the stats"? Show us the stats...

"No, buddy - I'm saying you can stop whining about slavery because it ended in the 1800s. Not to forget it happened, but stop suggesting that it's a factor in modern day life." - Here is the final proof that shows you are poorly educated and unaware of what goes on around you. Are you not aware that people are enslaved in many countries? In Russia for example - many women are enslaved and abused, tortured and murdered. In Japan also... In Bankhok also... In fact in many countries. To be fair slavery doesn't extend only to women. There are boys who are also enslaved and used for sex but invariably the enslaver is another male.

Your world is defined in very simple terms based on textbook teachings and anti-female stereotypes.

Take the following statement:

"No, buddy - I'm saying you can stop whining about slavery because it ended in the 1800s. Not to forget it happened, but stop suggesting that it's a factor in modern day life."

You were probably taught this at school or by watching TV. You therefore naively belief that because slavery was ended "officially" in some democratic countries - that slavery somehow and magically ceases to exist!

You then argue with someone like me when I tell you that just because slavery was abolished "officially" in some countries - doesn't mean that slavery doesn't exist. As I have explained to you - there are women and children enslaved in many countries. There are also men enslaved in many countries. Your textbook definition of slavery is very simple and doesn't recognise the many degrees of slavery that exist. But yes - there is even slavery that you understand to be slavery (i.e. women and children held captive and used as sex slaves).

Yes... There are even men who are enslaved. But the crucial point to realise is that the enslaver is invariably male.

Now. Before I go and do some work... You said you have evidence in the form of studies to show that women are "as violent as men, perhaps more violent". Show us.

"81% of fatal child abuse is inflicted on children by women. " - Show us where you got that statistic from.

Ultimately it makes no difference how many micro specific examples you regurgitate:

Women in so-called civilised countries aren't safe to walk the streets at night because of men. You are so desparate to shift blame that you will fabricate any number of examples but even those have no real relevance - because invariably they are micro-specific instances and are not representitive of females overall.

You will quite happily argue for many weeks to come. But that doesn't change the situation - women (and children) are mostly in danger from men. Women are unsafe to walk home at night. Women in many countries don't have freedom (they are enslaved).

It doesn't matter how many micro-specific examples you quote:

Women are born into a hostile male dominated world.

You are so ignorant and totally selfish that you complain endlessly because the democratic west for the first time ever has been forced to consider women as equal citizens.

'Oooh but it's not fair now because things have gone too far and men are now the victims blah blah blah whine whine complain'. It doesn't matter to someone like you that our so-called civilised democratic countries didn't even declare women equal that long ago. In the scale of human history - women being regarded as equal is a very new concept for males in the west. An idiot may regard perhaps 30 years of equality as an eternity but it doesn't even begin to redress the balance. How long were women regarded as unequal to men? Hundreds of years in England. How many years have women been declared equal citizens? When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's - Women were still openly ridiculed on TV and considered second class citizens. 70's TV was overtly sexist and male dominated.

But you're so selfish that you start to whine and complain that things are "going too far and men now face inequality". Even if that were true? So what? I don't give a toss. A few decades of equality for women doesn't been to compensate for countless centuries of oppression.

Women exist in a male dominated world. You are so ignorant that you even believe inequality is a thing of the past because "equality" for women was officially declared. You are someone who is unable to look below the surface. You believe slavery doesn't exist because it was officially abolished in some countries. You see things in a simple black and white way that does not reflect the true nature of our world.

Just in case you still don't get it...

Women are born into a hostile male dominated world. It has always been male dominated. The least a whining little coward can do is quit trying to blame women and portray men as victims. No one is denying there are violent, dysfunctional women. But those women have been shaped by a violent, dyfunctional male dominated world.

"Remember, three out of the seven jailers at Abu Gharib were women... and they were the more creative ones when it came to humiliating and brutalizing inmates...

But wait they were victims of a male culture, right?" - Spot on. Male dominated world, male designed weapons, male built torture camps. Getting the picture yet? Judging and condemning women whilst ignoring the circumstances that helped to make some of them violent is totally insane and suggests a very great lack of awareness. You have no real understanding of cause and effect.

You believe women should be born into a male dominated violent world and not be affected negatively by this? You'd have to be super-dumb to think so. You'd have to be even dumber to cite endless specific examples of female violence while ignoring the fact that women are shaped by their environment. The world isn't female dominated. It is male dominated and violence is commonplace. To ignore this crucial fact and then to actually seek to suggest that men actually are the victims of women - is supremely stupid.

I have said all there is to say about this and I have taken the focus away from the original subject matter (sorry).

 

feathers, why are you so angry? this whole "male collective" bullshit, its all steriotyping bullshit.

you have your anger in the wrong place. why do we have to be so seperated by gender? we're a race. we're all human. not half male, half female, no, we're all human.

and there are female rapists out there, female pedophiles, female murderers, and just flat out nasty-people type chicks out there.

the whole "male dominated world" thing, well, i can see that. its fucking crazy that someone who raped a lady is going to get out of prison in a mere ~5 to ~10 years, when people have been jailed for life with non violent drug offences.

but it doesnt mean you have to be so obsessed with gender that you instantly steriotype men as mean, wife beating rapists; and women, as gentle, loving mothers.

there are BOTH extremes in BOTH genders.

please, stop hating. you're doing nothing but making the world a worse off place. you arent any different than a racist. if you're so loving and motherly, please, forgive men as a whole. not all men are rapists, not all women are gentile.

again, we are ONE RACE. we are fucked up as a whole. thank you for your time.