Why is socialism a bad thing?

1. I don't think libertarian socialism makes any sense as a concept either. Libertarian socialism assumes that economic freedoms are not important, to me that's case closed.

2. On Aristartle's list, the US fulfills 8 out of the 10 requirements, more or less.

3. Free trade is not socialism, that is nonsensical. Socialist economies tend to be anti free trade and very protectionist, that is one of the reasons their economies perform so poorly.

 

well, that kinda says it all

i'm going to go get into arguments in the nuclear physics forum

but i really don't want to spend my time reading/studying about any type of physics, either

eat fascist death, flaming science pigs!

 

libertarianism as it exists today, based on the 'philosophy' of ayn rand, is essentially ANTI-socialist, as was rand's 'thought'

[apart from free love, which she seemed to embrace]

the term libertarian is older than that, and used to refer to something different

[probably still included free love though]

as regards nafta, free trade is not fair trade

the socialist agenda is fairness, so why would they be interested in free trade?

[EDIT - the soviet behavior in post-wwii africa would indicate that they were no longer following anything even remotely resembling a socialist line, i am not up on earlier soviet trade practices, or chinese, but suspect similar problems]

 

I guess none of you have heard of libertarian socialism, lol. Or Noam Chomsky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky

Also check out this video, where Chomsky addresses the issue of the so called "contradiction in terms";

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugq86q9KyPE

Also libertarianism has its roots in left wing anarchism......but the libertarian party libertarians changed the meaning of it. Just like liberalism isn't supposed to mean socialism, but rather minarchism.

 

ROFLMAO!!!

i wondered who would call me on that absolutely TOO-PID statement!!!

Yeah, i'm going to HAVE to study it, if for nothing else, just so i'll know if i'm living in one! :rofl:

 

They AREN'T interested in "Free Trade" at ALL ~

what the NAFTA was meant to do, and, in fact, did, was effectively make this ONE country ~ The United States of North America. The joining of our currencies is making us one nation. All that's left is to open the borders and join the governments, and THAT's where this is all heading. When you stop to think about how many years of planning this has covered, you realize that this drift to socialism has been in the works for quite a while.

Now, let's see ~ what would be the best bet for the government of a newly formed nation, as far as ideology? Yeppers. And it IS a good idea ~ for the government. Not so great for the people.

To my way of thinking,

socialism forces society, as a whole, to sink to the lowest common denominator, elliminating any uniqueness,

while capitalism allows it rise to the LEAST common denominator where everyone is an individual.

 

Ooo, a Chomsky discussion. I love his philosophy of futility analysis. I like that he criticizes corporate libertarianism, but I had no idea that he was a self-proclaimed Libertarian. Oy.

I too, think that Libertarian Socialism is a contradicting term. It kind of steals the ideals of democratic socialism and infuses it into Libertarian economics.

 

yeah, i'd always heard some other term for chomsky, anarcho-syndicalism

a guy that into unions would be a libertarian shortly after a lobotomy

[i suspect this is often the case]

 

A lot of people are waking up to the failures of Capitalism and Free Markets. People are abstaining from commercialism, consumer-driven affluence and no longer support wasteful destruction and degradation to the environment. People are beginning to opt out of the idea that we should all strive for incremental wealth nor support widening gaps between the rich and the richer. People are beginning to watch the world they grew up in change dramatically into a global 30 second TV ad trying to sell them something they don't need.

For this reason, people are coming up with ideas. They are creating systems that are better than those that exist and are not designed to be fueled by capital. People are no longer brainwashed into believing that all individuals can be motivated by pursuing their own self-interest, in fact, they are motivated by human integrity, kindness, love, compassion and supporting one another.

Charity donations are high. People are starting to help one another out and are beginning to understand what comes from corporate greed and limitless affluence.

The Republicans are floundering in the USA. No one believes Iraq was about 9-11 or that right-wing liberalism is sustainable.

Socialist programs are aimed to institute sustainability, equal opportunities for individuals, the distribution of wealth instead of wealth theft, and create a social safety net to support the most vulnerable persons in society in times such as a Global Recession. Women, children, minorities, poor, the sick, the vulnerable are all priorities for socialistic structures.

Democratic socialism isn't about total state control, it's about partnerships and creating equal balances of power between the budget of federal governments that are pitted against global markets and multi-national trillion dollar profit corporations. I'm not in favour of making the state the only competitor, the dictator. But at this rate, the state power is conventional at best. It's been infiltrated by free market capitalists and nullified by WTO, NAFTA and WB dispute pannels. International intervention is invading the world, the corporate interests are putting their feet down everywhere and throwing out government legislation like they own the place.

Re-construction efforts and capitalism is pushed on countries everywhere, thanks an awful lot to the USA. They say that capitalism is the neo-colonization of today. Instead of the English, French, Spanish, etc. controlling hot spots, key areas of the world, capitalism is being used as the master key to unlocking global dominance and pathways to justify systemic oppression.

I could go on, but I think you all get the gist of what I'm saying.

 

That is just Socialist propaganda; it is the same as U.S. Democracy propaganda “freedom blabla”. Just a political sales pitch.

Socialism has a great sales pitch it targets poor repressed people (which are the perfect ingredient for a revolution) fills the full of false hopes they will fight and die for. Then when it is all over and they win they live under a worse more repressive government then they did before.

Happens every time.

 

There is no such thing as free-market capitalism in the US or any other so-called Western democracy today. It is far closer to socialism than capitalism. Anyone who says otherwise is quite misinformed. There is a big difference between true laissez faire, free-market capitalism, and the corporate welfare state capitalism (corporate socialism) we have today, which serves to benefit the corporations and their elite shareholders.

The belief among the very gullible and naive is that all our problems today are to be blamed on capitalism, when we don't even have capitalism! By convincing the ignorant that capitalism is the problem in this already state-managed economy, it sets the precedent for even more management of the economy, which further consolidates power in the hands of the elite as we see happening today. Those who believe that socialism is the answer are only playing into the hands of the very same "capitalist pigs" who created these problems to justify more socialist control.

Also, Hiptastic, there is a big difference between FREE TRADE and the corporate managed trade we have today, which is not free at all. I would assume you know this but are just such a true believer in the system that keeps your wallet fat to openly state otherwise.

 

Yup, well-stated! People still haven't learned.

I don't see how anyone can understand the "aim" of socialist policies, let alone anything else put forward by the government, unless they are the ones who implemented these policies themselves.

It's kind of like how we're told Homeland Security and the surveillance state are aimed at protecting Americans from the Muslim "evil doers." To believe this is to believe whatever is presented to you at face value without asking any of your own questions.

There is a huge freaking difference between what the people are lead to believe socialism is, and what it truly is to the people at the top who administer it. The same applies to nearly every other -ism.

I am sorry, Allison, but everything you stated in your post is nearly identical to the promises of socialist utopia put forward by nearly every dictator in modern history, to get the people to go along with their agenda, thinking it's in their best interests but always ending up enslaved or dead in the end.

 

the labeling of anything one does not agree with as 'socialism' reminds me of the jack chick comic where all of the gods and goddesses of india are labelled 'satanism'

as regards whether nafta is 'free trade' or not, who cares? we want FAIR trade, not free

 

Yeah true wa bluska wica, it seems lots of folks.....especially right wing libertarians label anything they dissent with as socialism. Then again left-wingers have been known to label any dissenting view as capitalism when trying to describe libertarians for example. I think the problem here is misuse of these terms to begin with.

Pressed_Rat, you don't seem to realize that there are many forms of socialism, as there are many forms of "capitalism". And these words are often used in different ways depending on their context. But labeling everything that is anti-freedom as socialist is just as retarded as some left wing libertarians saying capitalism (as used by right-wing libertarians) means unlimited corporate control and business privelage. Try to look beyond this dichotomy.....just like lots of more lay folks need to look beyond the retarded republican democrat dichotomy.

America is not a true capitalist system.....this is true. At the same time it ain't a true socialist system either. It's a mixed economy. And you don't seem to realize that many socialists would call the corporatism in the United States as a component to capitalism. Because capitalism has historically been used to mean opression of the many through business to the benefit of the few....and "free" markets are much more of a recent definition.

I think what both socialists and libertarian capitalists need to realize is that the problem is the state AND big business. Often times socialists look past the crimes of the state, while capitalist libertarians often look past the crimes of big business. However for the free "liberal" society libertarian socialists and libertarian capitalists need to address all problems related to control and hierarchy.

To put it more bluntly.....more capitalist libertarians need to realize that liberty cannot be maintained with equality......and socialists need to realize that equality cannot be achieved without liberty.

 

No, I realize there are many "forms" of socialism that have different veneers and appearances at face value. However, they all serve the same purpose when you strip that outer layer away. Today in the West, socialism is prety much synonymous with the term liberalism. This is a form of fabian socialism, which is an incremental form of socialism designed to not attract too much attention while working towards a certain outcome unknown by the people.

 

What we have is Corporate Libertarian Capitalism, which is quite far from Socialism.

Anyone who doesn't know that, is misinformed.

"The corporate welfare state capitalism (corporate libertarian) we have today, serves to benefit the corporations and their elite shareholders."

People who blame "socialism" are gullible, because we don't even have socialism! We have elitist control over state economies and corporate domination over all trade and planet resources!

Where is there a socialist check body to oversee WB, WTO oligarchy? Nowhere!

Capitalists like to use words like "socialists" or "bleeding heart liberals" to take power away from organized groups of people who wish to gain control over their own corporations, their own governments, their own resources, and share their own profits. You see, if you're making money and perpetuating the idea that everyone has to continue to fuel capitalism, everyone is always going to buy into the rat race. Capitalists like to think of everyone as just a small meaningless cog in the great machine.

Capitalism permits a means of state control. It is used to subdue people from action, it pacifies people by dangling invisible wealth. It gels people into these molded zombies who want a new car and could care less about the 6 year old that made their sweater.

Capitalism disconnects people from places, communities from the world, and monopolizes control into a full-scale spider web that creates easily manageable pockets of homogeneous think-speak consumers. It brands every living being on the planet as either a consumer or a commodity and suits to package both.

Capitalism is used as a tool to blind people of the injustices. It dumbs people down to think in monetary values. People are being controlled by that which is cost effective in their lives. They are trained from birth to buy and sell. People are spoon-fed manufactured wants and created desires baiting them to buy some gizmo that was designed to be obsolete next season.

People can no longer think for themselves because the corporate libertarians are telling them what to, through a wide casted net of ground laid Capitalist territory.

All's fair in love, war and Free Zones.

 

Thanks to the USA government, the majority of Socialist movements in the South Americas have been overthrown by American Militaries in order to prop up and enshrine dictator dominance and legacy who were paid to perpetuate capitalist libertarian control.

I can think of at least half a dozen instances where this is known fact.

Particularly during Kennedy-Lyndon Johnson-Nixon and then Reagan presidencies.

Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti, Honduras, Panama, etc. have all been provoked to bend over to capitalist regimes through USA military coup d'etats and slaughter.

It's the same thing that's going on right now in Iraq. They built a Disney Park in the Green Zone in Baghdad. Hell, the Green Zone was just handed over to Iraqi soldiers today!

By occupying a territory and controlling land you see, you can make it free to the highest bidder, you can take any investment you want to develop anything really. We do this with medicines, air traffic space, the oceans, intellectual property, etc. We make free pocket networks everywhere to buy and sell everything.

That is capitalism.

That is not socialism.

 

Who funded these “Socialist movements” ?

Russia, China and Cuba…
Look past the propaganda and you will see it was just another play in the game of global war. Using the poor and repressed as pawn.

A lot of those “Socialist movements” were successful Nicaragua is a perfect example. The “people” over threw the U.S. backed dictator, Socialism won. The very next day top military advisors were there from Cuba and Russia moving in missiles and making orders for tanks and the people were under martial law for years.

No one comes or goes you are a prisoner in your state, you get caught leaving you are shot you get caught talking wrong about the leadership you are tortured and killed.

With Martial/Socialist law solders came into homes at will took anything they want because in true Socialism people have no ownership rights…

Farms are seized turned into “co-ops” not hippy co-ops, but Labor co-ops you work for free and if you refuse you are executed….

I have never met Anyone. that has lived through a Socialist take over that had anything good to say about it except war generals or the top elite that gets to harvest all of the spoils.

 

lol

how many peasants you pal around with?

the people i have read about who hate socialist revolutions the most have largely been wealthy russians and chinese, war generals and the top elite clogging the bibliographies

the people i have personally met who hate socialist revolutions the most have all been wealthy cubans and nicaraguans, no generals, but a diplomat who might qualify as 'top elite'

read anything, talked to anyone who's been through one of the u$-led capitalist/fascist adventures? guatemala, el salvador, chile? pine ridge reservation?

 

and why is it always a revolution?

socialism don't need no stinkin' revolutions

just make the laws fair for everyone, so that no one is burdened with either too much or too little, and all will be well for all

[as much as i actually ENJOY being burdened with too little i need some oral surgery i cannot afford and my eyeglasses are a dozen years old and growing more useless daily, fix that and i'm good to go]