Why is freedom good?

More than they do of CEOs or CFOs of private corporations.

 

I think what we as the American people really need to look at is how many people didn't vote. Bush didn't win by landslides, he eked his way in.

As to Bush there's controversy as to whether he was ever actually elected. Kind of almost a Teapot Dome sort of thing, but it won't come out in my lifetime or probably yours.

Once they are in office we still have a voice. You can find their phone numbers and addresses in most newspapers or by calling informatin and you have a right to tell them what you think.

And with Bush/Cheney they played the terrorist hand. No one questioned them it would have been unamerican. That's how they sucked us into Iraq.

 

So much bullshit...

 

Yes, and a large percentage of the people who didn't vote are the ones who are now complaining.

Yes we do have the right to tell them what we think, but that doesn't garentee that there will always be someone there to listen and take our words to heart.

And once again, the people who didn't question this are the people complaining about the war. And it is those same people who voted for Obama to clean up the mess that Bush/Cheney created. And it is some of those people who still do not vote and expect the rest of us to take care of them and carry thier wieght.

 

Either that, or they just don't believe in voting. Your votes don't count anyway.

 

I dont exactly understand. Are you saying that people complaining who don't vote, don't vote because they don't believe in it? If you are then those people should not be complaining. They didn't voice thier opinions then, they didn't try to put thier say in, so why now? why should they suddenly be angered that Obama (or any other past president or president to come) is in office when they never said yay or nay?

 

Cynical, but I can see why some folks don't vote. The political machinery denies us candidates who would protect our best interests. You can't even run for office unless you have a gazillion dollars, and considering big corporations are the only ones with the capital to support them, it's no surprise they have the biggest influence on policy once their candidates get in office. The health insurance industry is spending 1.4 mil a day to keep a public option off the table while the people they're supposed to be insuring are going bankrupt from denied coverage. I like to think as Gardener does that we have more influence over our politicians than the CEO's of our corporations, but our government has become so influenced by big money, I'm not so sure any more.

Naomi Klein's "Disaster Capitalism" presents the idea that politicians use disasters, such as the Iraqi war or Katrina, as excuses for their corporate buddies to exploit the American tax payers, since oversight and accountability can be circumvented in these situations.

 

Because they don't believe that voting is a valid way of voicing their opinion, because governments are bought and sold.

 

I see your point, goverments are bought and sold but that doesnt mean that we shouldnt vote. Even if it isn't a "valid" way to voice your opinion, you're still getting your ideas and thoughts heard someway or another.

 

Not really. It's not making any difference in government, so not voting doesn't make one responsible for said government.

 

The fact is at least someone is trying. Someone is trying to have their opinions heard, someone is trying to difference. Even if its all in vain, even if it never makes a difference at least we can say we tried.

 

True, but by that logic, trying to make a difference by talking to people about the problems with government is an equally admirable effort, and actually produces more tangible results. So what does voting add to the picture?

 

I wasn't trying to say that one effort is less admirable. By all means, make every effort to have your voice heard.
But how does talking with others about problems with our government more productive? Even if it is as you say, and our votes don't count someone is there recieving them, and looking at them. To say that one is more productive, more efficient is a matter of opinion, not fact. The only way to prove this is if we recieve direct information from somebody who counts the votes, or recieves the letters. And then again, that is just one side of it.

 

So one person seeing a check-mark on a ballot is a better way of communicating ideas than discussing things in detail, offering solutions, etc.? That's all it amounts to: one person counting votes somewhere has an extra slip of paper to drop in Box A or B. That's not communication of ideas. If we accept that our votes don't count, the process of voting is worthless.

 

No thats not what I meant. I wasn't implying that one was better or worse. What I meant was either way you choose do voice your opinions, it does not garantee that anything will have an effect.

 

That's true.

All I'm arguing about is your assertion that people who don't vote have no right to complain. But if voting makes no more difference then just talking about the issues, why is it so important to vote? if we agree that it has no practical consequences, can we really justify it for its own sake?

 

Thats true, and I guess I should have been more specific. Its the people who dont vote because they dont care to begin with that should not be complaining. Its the people that dont care untill something goes wrong, and then they complain about our government and the way things are being run.

 

I don't care if anyone votes or not, but other than that I agree. People need to pay attention to the path they're being led down before something bad happens. If you allow other people to lord over you without saying anything, then you're asking for whatever happens.

 

Because I AM.

In being I have rights, because it is a miracle that I AM

Being is a miracle.

Existence, that simple concept, that has spawned so much philosophy, and so much debate? is a MIRACLE

And that miracle, being so unique, and being such an amazing creature, with the powers of thought and sentience, and the ability to simply ask for it, earns me the right to have freedom.

Freedom to explore who I am, Freedom to discover more about what it means to be human, What is right, and what is wrong. What it is to be Free, and what it is to be enslaved, what it is to LIVE.

I have only so much time, and in having only so much of that precious and cruel currency that is time, I should understand the right of each and every one of my brothers and sisters to spend their currency, their time, as they best can, without infringing too much on that of others.

And I should, in understanding others, Share that universal understanding with others, and they should universally understand MY right to spend that currency, that is time, as I best can.

and the rights of my brothers, and my sisters, to do the same

because, as sentient beings, and I KNOW this sounds like hippie bullshit, WE are all fighting the same uphill battle to spend our currency, our time, in the best way possible.

and we should allow others to do that too.

we should respect the right of others to do that.

and we should protect that right, our own, and the right of those around us to have it, as fiercely as anything we can. because it is the ONLY commodity.

 

If I want to do something and I'm not free to do it.... THAT BAD. My life is then not as good as it could have been. Complete personal freedom can only ever be better than less than complete freedom because with a lack of freedom there is loss of possibility for good to be done.