Why does God allow the suffering of little children?

God "allows" suffering because of adam and eve's original sin.

 

Did I say these things were good?

Things do not need fixing in that God does not have to enter into history like he did 2000 years ago. Christ is the fix. God's fix is the freedom from sin.

When I spoke of fixing, and doing--I was speaking personally, not socially.

Social change though, does flow from the acceptance of God's fix (which does require particular actions).

 

Seriously now... re-read what you just said... God causes/allows all the pain and suffering to go on, in order to help us stop all the pain and suffering that is going on...

As I said... If you are right about this.... I WILL spit in his face.

Let's take this out of the mystical realm of god for a second...

Let's compare this to the real world... Say you are living here on my land... And every once and a while I wander over to you and break one of your bones, in order to teach others here how to set it... Am I doing a good thing? Are you going to continue to live here?

How about if every once and a while, I wander out and burn down the home you just built, in order to teach you to build in a better manner... are you going to hail me as being a kind and beneficial person.

If you wouldn't stick around and put up with it from a real person, why would you from a god?

 

None of this means anything...

God's fix is the freedom from sin? What does that fix in this world? How many children per day does it save?

 

God does not cause pain. God allows pain.

Evil is also not the same as suffering or pain.

These are some clarifications I think are necessary.


I shudder at the comments that follow natural disasters that it is God teaching us a lesson to be more giving. Seems a little unneccesary to kill countless people just to teach one guy a little lesson in charity. It is also greatly egocentric and narcissistic.

 

Absolutely no difference to anyone but a politician.

Once again, lets look at the real world...

If you come across a person being beaten to death... and you stand back and watch it happen, you ARE just as responsible for that person's death as those doing the beating.

If someone is homeless and starving, and you step over them to go on your way home, YOU are just as responsible as if you took food and shelter away from them.

 

Of course I would consider that a good thing, if it teaches us to build and stand on our own two feet if we are unable to do otherwise. That's an excellent example but not quite right as I don't consider that if there were a God it would be a singular entity or force, so personification in this manner doesn't feel right.

 

It depends on what type of saving you mean.

In the context of the "fixing" we were discussing the afterlife, and you implied that I followed Pascals Wager (which I do not).

You continually take my metaphysical statements, and try to use them to solve physical problems.

You said: Well, what you are doing is betting this life on the possibility of another one afterwards... (I took this to mean that you think that I am not satisfied in my life because I am not doing something you think I should, such as being sexualy promiscuious, indulging in narcotics, or generally being hedonistic which for you means freedom. Your use of physical actions points to a claim of a perceived metaphysical freedom to do whatever you want.)

I said: After seeing that I am a sinner, I do not sit by and say "Well God, its up to you to fix everything". He already has! I just need to ask "God, what do I need to do?" (I meant, I am free. I have true and authentic freedom. I am not bound to myself. I am removing from my life sin, which is a metaphysical reality. Death and suffering are physical realities to which i was not currently speaking)

You said: So, all the people around the world dying of disease, being killed in wars, being stoned to death, being raped and murdered... (Look at that jump to physical sufferings when i was clearly referncing metaphysical things, i.e. sin)

I said: Things do not need fixing in that God does not have to enter into history like he did 2000 years ago. Christ is the fix. God's fix is the freedom from sin. (To clarify that I was speaking metaphysically)

You said: None of this means anything... (apparently stil not understanding the level on which I am speaking)

 

Lets look at how we are discussing it.

God has the power to end all pain.

you stub your tow, and it hurts. God can stop it. You ask him to, and he does not. Your conclusions seem to be that now God is either sadistic or nonexistent.

Humans are by far the largest cause of suffering in this worl. Natural disasters and natural diseases may cause a lot, or often what people call "suffering" (are things like developmental differences, learning disabilities really "suffering" as this taopic discusses). Why should God, who gave us free will, constantly clean up our messes? We have the power to feed everyone in this world, but our own selfishness prevents this.

 

... did you hear about the nun and the priest playing golf ?
The priest doesn't have a very good day, he's missing the first hole. 'Shit! I missed' says he.
Nun: Careful, father, with your use of language.
Next hole, same thing happens and the priest can't help but swear again: 'Shit! I missed'.
Nun: God will punish you, father, for swearing so much.
They go on playing and after only five minutes the priest botches up again so you'd bet he repeats his 'Shit! I missed'.
At this very moment, the sky darkens and a mighty thunder rumbles. A huge lightning comes down, hitting the nun who now lays dead on the ground.
And from above a voice is heard: 'Shit! I missed'.

 

You consider it a good thing that your god allows and or causes pain and suffering...

Sums up everything I need to know about you.

Actually, you are the only one who mentioned pascal... What I said, was that you are betting this life on the possibility of the next. Wether or not you agree with it, or it is a theory proposed by someone else or not, is totally irrelevant...

If you do things in this world, for no other reason then it MAY benefit you in the next, then yes, you do follow that theory, no matter what you wish to call it.

I agree that humans cause a lot of the suffering, they do so using religions as an excuse... Because they interpret their imaginary gods will to be in violent confrontation with other peoples imaginary gods.

That doesn't change the fact that IF there was a God, who had the power to end the pain and suffering, who is choosing NOT to...

If that is your god, I hope you experience his mercy....

 

I would argue that I do not follow that theory.

Besides, Pascal's wager isn't just about the possibility of eternal benefit, but also out of eternal punishment.


I do not "bet" this life, I act in this life according to how I think i should act in this life, regardless of other promises.

 

So, let's see if I can get this straight...

You're arguments come from a point of view that god is on a metaphysical level and the concepts of sin, good an evil and such are not in relation to the physical world?

 

If we all got together and helped each other, we would be able to build nations that were basically natural disaster proof, but instead everyone is more interested in their own lives to lift a finger (me included obviously). We could be living in a utopia right now if it wasn't for mans indulgences.

 

Also, if I may interject *already have *. Exactly what is Ukr-Cdn missing out on by choosing to be a Christian? He's a married man, and I am assuming he loves her and is happy with the choice. Other than what's going on in his mind, what exactly is different about his life and what should be different? I've seen nothing so far to show any reason why a rational faith should be considered a 'bad bet'.

Gotta say this again: What exactly is a Christian missing out on, especially Christians that follow science?

 

Well, the world is pretty fucked up. I don't really think the higher layers of consciousness are normally on our wavelength but sometimes respond to us in the form of convenient synchronicity. I think were direct manifestations of God and that were in a lot more control and have a lot more responsibility than we give our selves credit. People let a lot of evil happen and directly commit a lot of evil.

For example, if a child's starving to death, in third world countries, its not uncommon for them to be put in a situation where they have to work and not go to school. Of course, people in western countries buy their goods and don't think anything of it, when in reality, boycotting factories to raise wages for workers could do a lot of good to make sure families can send their kids to school without having to rely on them to supplement their income to get by. The tendency is to blame the rest of the universe for a lot of bad that happens, when in reality, individuals can do a lot to stop human suffering.

 

From my point of view (in some cases not all) it's missing out on being able to make judgements for yourself. Views of homosexuality and divorce for example are based on what the Bible says. Once religion is taken out of it - there is no valid reason to be against it. People feel they have to live their life in a certain way, there is not a lot of free will.

 

qft

 

I missed out on most of this discussion - but the question was "Why does God allow suffering of little children."
We can try to look at the BIG picture of Gods plan for all mankind but this does not ease the suffering of small children in Haiti. They do not know nor do they care. They hurt - and God is not easing their pain.
We pontificate about how God loves us all - knew us before we were formed in the womb - yet it seems we are little more that pawns in a much bigger game.
Jesus cared for and loved individuals - he raised the dead, healed the sick, feed the hungry. But little children still suffer.
Sometimes I can't help but think God says to the little sick, hungry, black child in the slums of Porta Prince - tough shit. It's for the bigger good. I'm not sure I can buy that.

 

I know I can't.

Well, thats not quite right... I can't accept that it happens like this and that there is a kind god behind it...

The only argument that I will ever accept on this subject is that if there is a god, that god is a cruel, uncaring manipulator who only cares about what he wants.

Actually, you want something non-god related to compare this to?

I have as much use for a 'god' that would cause (or allow) the horrible things that go in this world, as I do for a parent who beats their child and then says... "I had to toughen you up".

Actually, after reflection, I take back what I said earlier... I wouldn't spit in gods face... I would do my level best to beat the fuck right out of him... and then explain how it was for his own good...