Why do atheists spend so much time arguing about the existence of God?

Again, atheist and "anti-religion" ideals should not be confused purely because they often intersect. I am an atheist, but I have no problem with religion, because I expect people to behave themselves whatever they nail their colours to, and for the most part they do.

 

And yet, the colour of the sky could be one of the least significant factors in your day to day life, your philosophy, your emotional wellbeing...


Just saying. It seems weird that someone would let a being they don't believe in obstruct them from discussing ANYTHING with those who do believe in it, which we've as much as seen in this forum. Why focus on the one thing that makes us different?

 

As a non-traditional Christian living among traditional Christians, I face this dilemma daily: when to challenge, when to let it go by. For example, there are still lots of people who apparently seriously believe that God makes the weather. After the Tsunami in Asia and hurricaine Katrina, several people wrote in to the local newspaper attributing the events to God's wrath about one or another moral outrage (which one varying with the letter writer, but gays, abortion, and Muslims figured prominently). I wrote back voicing my view that it was unlikely God was behind the calamities, especially since it took presumably innocent lives and left it ambiguous as to exactly which evil He was upset about. But just the other day, I received a church bulletin in which the pastor commented on what wonderful weather God was giving us lately. I wondered to myself what the pastors in communities that were experiencing rotten weather were saying to their congregations, but I decided to keep my mouth shut on that one. Then there are those who think God fixes football and basketball games. Just pray hard, and hope the other team are infidels! There are lots of folks around here who think the Bible is inerrant and take it literally, despite what seem to me to be numerous contradicitions. Catholics purport to believe the communion wafer literally turns into the "substance" of Jesus during the mass, even though it looks and tastes the same. (I suspect the key to that one is the concept of "substance" which is one of those abstruse things only theologians understand. I bite my tongue a lot, but am speaking out more lately.

 

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I think debate is healthy. It just bothers me that so few are willing to argue on mutually agreed terms, or even to know enough about "the other side"'s beliefs to effectively argue against them. At the end of the day, if one merely blares a view at the world, refusing to engage with alternative views other than to ridicule them, that is proselytising, and as has been said, there is nothing worse than someone who mistakes their own faith for logic.

Also, if you ever start thinking that American Catholics are backward, have a skim through this, and appreciate what you have:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...ead-In-Congo-Stampede/Article/200809315099780

 

Like Okie I have been i've been chasing the bunny for several years now. The problem is the non-stop 1/2 truth factory that has become "the establishment". I am convinced that there is a truth... a beautiful FULL truth where science and spirituality come together in one elegant defined universe. Every breath I draw, I draw in it's name. I will not rest till I know it. Religious teaching tells us we have to die in order to know these things. It's all supposed to be some big mystery. That's my problem with "the establishment" and its Religion(s). Anything they can't explain --"GOD works is mysterious ways". Mhmm and so does Quantum Mechanics, and Electricity, Wheather anomalies and any other complex topics at first glance. But what do we do? We study them. We break them down. And understand it.

Since energy cannot be created or destroyed. There is NO Mystery. This is a topic like any other that must be discussed, debated, studied, and understood. No more 1/2 truth. This is EXACTLY what that last book in the bible is all about. The battle for the emmergence of the full truth.

 

If you lived your life by the fact that "nothing is true, everything is permitted" belief system and did not allow for at least SOME assumptions to be made about reality you would have a very hard time interacting with the majority of society.

 

Both religions are equally stupid.

 

Who's bible? What religion? Take your pick there's a new one made every day (probably MANY more) Religion is man made always has been.

One last time


THERE ARE NO GHOST'S!

 

This is a really stupid thing for anyone to argue about, whether you believe in god or you don't, because no one's point can be proved either way, so let it be.

 

Two points of view:

1. There is a force of supernatural power. (False)

2. There is no supernatural power.(True)

There is ZERO evidence in favor for something beyond our reality or "super natural".

In the future we may as a race (If we're lucky) discover awesome new discovery's that will in turn cause some to yet again question "Is this supernatural?"

But in time that to will be proven to be explainable.

There are no ghost's.

 

The most delusional kind of faith IS denial of logical PROOF and reality when it's staring you right in the face. Please Tell me WHAT I have faith in?? What facts or evidence have I denied in my disbelief??? My conviction of ignorance,"faith", is my demand for real evidence? WTF kind of ignorance is that? I'm ignorant for not accepting ignorance??? Does burden of proof not go to ones making the claim? God is a claim, what claim is "no God"? And yet I have offered plenty of solid explanations to support my belief. I've shown you my hand, where is yours?

Place your bets? you don't even have your money on the table. As if there was a CHANCE IN HELL the 9-11 terrorists are fucking 40 virgins in heaven. As if there was a CHANCE perfection decided to create imperfection. As if there was a CHANCE all mighty God ego REQUIRES praise or even acknowledgment for that matter. CHANCE my ass, I'd give better odds for an unarmed american surviving a hike from Iraq to Pakistan!

Oh we just dont know enough, we can't say... Bullshit! Sure mankinds knowledge is just one small puzzle piece, but it's a flaming red piece compared to a blue-green landscape cover image that religion has painted of God, or ANY God theory at all.

The true book of LIES, the good word of EVIL... DELUSIONAL ZOMBIES!!!!

 

Relaxxx, it's all about suspicion of the Infinite. If we'd disprove the infinite the very necessity of Him existing, then we'd still have the possibility for something of an amazing physical or mental phenomenon suddenly appearing for the finite Will of suspecting that sort of Judgment in Life.

Am I being sarcastic?

 

Where's the proof? The reality staring me in the face looks a lot like God. You still haven't supplied any proof, or even evidence.

You seem to have faith that logic and science have refuted God.

Asserting that logic refutes God is a claim, so you can't escape the burden of proof that easily.

I must have missed those.

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Originally Posted by relaxxx
Place your bets? you don't even have your money on the table.

Actually, I've had it on the table in posts too numerous to mention. Before going into that, let's be clear about what I'm claiming. I would never state that I have proof of God's existence. I can say that I think there's enough evidence that a reasonable person could bet on God. I also admit there's a case that a reasonable person could make for betting against God. I prefer to phrase the question: what elements of life make me think that there might be apects of reality that may relate to a higher level of being within and/or outside of us? But none of this is "evidence" in the sense it would convice you or anybody else. These are just aspects of reality that persuade me, on the basis of personal observation, intuition, experience, and judgement, to place my bet on a Higher Power.
(1) I'm impressed by the fine-tunedness of the universe, and beyond that feel it's remarkable we won the cosmic sweepstakes, that we evolved into beings who are aware of reality, when the course of evolution didn't have to go that way;(2) I am also pretty impressed with the phenomenon of consciousness, the most immediately accessible reality we know. There is Chalmers "hard question": how and why we have this phenomenal, subjective reality we identify as us inside our heads. He asks, why couldn't we be zombies? In other words, what function does consciousness serve from an evolutionary standpoint. Various suggestions have been put forward that consciousness helps somehow to perform some sort of integrating function, but I don't get it; (3) I'm generally awed by the phenomenon of existence. Like Einstein, Carl Sagan & Julian Huxley, I find the vast complexity and reguarity of the universe awe inspiring, and I have the same feelings toward humanity;(4) I'm fascinated by the phenomenon of synchronicity that Jung was also intrigued by--the uncanny coincidences in our lives that I and just about everybody else has experienced. Of course, naturalists would say they're just coincidences, & over the course of a liftime, everybody will experience several of them as a result of sheer chance. There are also the kinds of "paranormal" experiences that I hear about from friends who otherwise are normal, level-headed dudes--being healed of a wound by sleeping overnigt in a pyramid, seeing auras, etc. I take them with a grain of salt and put them in the X-files for future reference. (5) There's also a personal life-altering religious experience I and numerous othes have had; it's not so much that science could never explain these phenomena; it's that science doesn't seem to be interested in doing so. (6) Finally,there's the multidimensional complexity of the religious phenomenon, offering psychological, social and economic benefits which, admittedly have nothing to do with truth but may make some sense in supporting existential choices.

 

relaxxx definately has faith that logic and science have refuted god.. they deifnately have not. what has refuted god is his probabilistic heuristic (which is not in itself logical, although it utilises logic in its structure). logic can only say what is possible or not possible, and god is definately possible, although many (most) versions of god are not

 

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted" is pretty much the foundation of post-structuralism, far as I know. And here was me thinking William Burroughs made it up!

Assumptions can be made about reality, but it still bothers me that a disparity of assumptions on one issue would prevent you from being able to agree on any other issue. I mean, a lot of people would be with you on this, but most of them wouldn't have thought about them as hard as you.

See, even if I agreed, I'd just argue that, all things being equal, it's the stupidity of the people in the religion that matters the most.

 

Multiple exclamation marks are a sign of a diseased mind.

 

According to Ibn Kathir and Imam al-Tirmidhi, it's 72 virgins for every male believer who enters Paradise, and it isn't limited to martyrs--so those terrorist dudes gave up thier lives for nothing. But like you, I don't believe it, not only because I'm not Muslim, but also because it seems preposterous. However, I'd be hard put to "disprove" it. Our life experiences, knowldege and intuitions come into play in evaluating claims like this, and on that basis, have no problem dismissing that fantasy along with the various legends of Zeus, Apollo, etc. I've learned, in particular, to be leary of the fundamentalist preachers who tell me I'll go to hell if I don't believe the King James Bible is God's favorite, etc. I share your pain over religious charlatans and their dupes who are willing to drink the Kool Aid or sell all their possessions to wait the end times that never come. But as a rationalist, I'll also allow the possibility that I could be wrong.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. If you mean that just because humans are fallible, we shouldn't then say "anything goes, one belief is as good as another" and give credence to every superstition that comes along the pike, I'd agree.
I have no problem rejecting beliefs, Christian or otherwise, that seem preposterous, questionable, or suspect. Where we seem to differ is that I allow more room for intuitive judgments, and have no problem admitting that I could be wrong.

 

On a tangent, is it just 72 virgins, or 72 virgins at any given time? As in, if I deflower one of the 72, is she replaced by another virgin, or do I just have to put up with whatever mess I've made of her vagoo for all eternity?

 

Yes people make religions and in turn religions kill people.

All religions that reference the supernatural are lies.

If someone were to say they had "faith" in god it's taken as a positive thing according to most religions.

That in itself is as an unhealthy motto to live ones life by as "Nothing is true everything is permitted" both can (and have) been used to justify the worst atrocities the human race has ever been part of.

Even the most "devout" religious people I would speculate don't believe in the more "Miraculous" part's in there own religions.

Virgin Birth
Resurrection
72 Virgins
Giant Whales
Giant Boats
Giants
ect
ect
ect

Religion is bullshit, those who choose to SAY they believe in it slow the human species and proliferate superstition and bigotry.