Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

You are not a black woman. Is that a limit?
These things you list, while technically limits in the sense that they can be distinguished from other things, are not limited or limiting qualities, but describe the character of love.
Nothing prohibits love bur love does not display some characteristics.

It is however a limit on behavior in that it is not inconsistent. It doesn't check inconsistent behavior, but inconsistency never arises.

When looking at the qualities of love we find them inconsistent with the idea of original sin at the level of love does not keep account of injury.

When looking at the qualities of love we find the requirement of blood sacrifice to be inconsistent with the qualities of love in that love does not look for it's own interests.

When looking at the qualities of love we find the idea that human sacrifice is necessary is inconsistent with the quality of love that does not behave indecently. Nothing is more indecent than to torture an innocent to death.

While the death of jesus does seek to satisfy a certain hardness of heart and uphold the precepts of priests it is god's mercy that christ brings us that we would be forgiven, even for demanding the death of his son. It is not jesus' death but his words, forgive them, they know not what they do, that bridges the estrangement gap.

One question that you have not responded to is how can the sacrifice of gods son be necessary if the whole deal is dissolved by our failure to forgive anyone or anything? You say it provides but the only thing you have demonstrated it provides is circular reasoning in support of your doctrine. I say it provides only a sense of justice to those with hardness of heart.

If man had known mercy, jesus would not have been crucified. That man chose guilt, (give us barabbas), over innocence, is the reason for jesus death, not a requirement from god.

 

In that case the truth must be that we are still as god created us, good. God did not call us sinful.

 

You have explained your precepts quite well.

Correct, it is you who imply it.

You feel that jesus death is cause for joy, that it is just.

Nothing that I am aware of. Like I said, the appearance is deceiving, you just don't get it.

I answer everything asked to the extent of the urging of holy spirit. That is why sometimes you say, I go off on a tangent. What I say is relevant and in context to the concepts being discussed.

Where is love not? Why do you need benefit of doubt when you admit to being calculating?

 

Then why the ransom? How do we become indebted for living?

The Latin term crux may mean a gallows, or a stake. Crucifixion is an appropriate term whether it was a cross or a stake.

This is what I mean about not knowing the difference between pain and joy.

 

Yes it is.

and it's limits.

Well, love never fails and just does not have certain characteristics.

Huh?

Who do you say is keeping account?

Who do you say is looking for his own interest in this matter?

Who was it that tortured an innocent to death?

Who's hard heart? Who demanded his death?

The "deal" is still valid after some 2000 years, how has it been dissolved?

It's not my doctrine but since you've made up your own doctrine, I can see why you might think others do also.

Too bad that some out of the hardness of their heart will not accept what Jesus has done for them.

Yes some men do not know mercy or love for that matter but that is not the reason for Jesus death. Jesus could have prevented his death but allowed it to take place so that his life could be offered as a ransom sacrifice.

It is too bad that some out of the hardness of their heart will not accept the provision of the ransom sacrifice that Jesus so lovingly provided and even go so far as to try to prevent others from taking advantage of that provision.

 

No that is not the case. God did not have to call us sinful, we made ourselves that way. God created man with the potential for good, that is true but Adam choose to take another course.

You keep mistakenly thinking that because God pronounced his creation "good", that means men are "good" and can not be otherwise but what God was saying is that he did a good job with his creations, that they were "well" made. Just because God called mankind a good creation, that does not mean that mankind necessarily has an inherently good nature.

Just because a manufacturer calls his car, a good car, does not mean that it won't be used in a bank robbery.

 

.

 

Obviously not, because god is not the authority on his creations, you are.

God created man in his own likeness and image, calling it good very good, not "Well made".

What is your sin?

 

Because you try so hard and fail at being a black woman evidently.

Love limits nothing.

Exactly, love limits nothing.

Love never fails, is never out of character. Nor does it attempt to fail or act out of character.

I don't. You said god required sacrifice as payment for sin. That is keeping account.

Again you say god required sacrifice as payment for sin. His interest in your scenario is getting his payment.

According to you god required the sacrifice of christ as the payment for sin.

Anyone who believes a lost eye for a lost eye, is justice. You said god required christs death for the payment of sins.

It is dissolved by a failure to forgive.

Frankly it is yours or someone taught it to you.

It is too bad the hard of heart still believe jesus must die for sin.

Who have I prevented from anything. Who did I attempt to prevent from anything? I teach a lesson of the holy spirit that says, child of god you were created to create the good and holy and you are still as god created you, go and sin no more.

 

Thanks but even so, your "perceptions" seem to distort everything so badly, that even something explained well is often times misunderstood by you.

If what I said is correct, as you say, then it is you that has implied incorrectly, not me. Since what I said was; "No they weren't, at least not in the way you imply."

But that in no way indicates that I don't know the difference between joy and pain.

As I "put off an air of extreme intellectual dishonesty" and yet you know of nothing that I've been dishonest about? How does that work?

Since you answer to the extent of the urging of "holy spirit", what you say is only relevant to what your "holy spirit" wants you to say at any time, which is mostly circular and tangent but only sometimes comes close to answering a question.

You are the one saying love is without limits, why does your love have limits in my case?

 

If your abuse your car and it breaks down and then a friend gives you the money to have it fixed and asks nothing in return but that you accept the money and not abuse the car anymore, how has he charged you?

We do not become indebted for living.

Well perhaps you are right but most of the definitions I found say cross.
Crucifixion
noun
1. the act of crucifying.
2. the state of being crucified.
3. ( initial capital letter ) the death of Jesus upon the Cross.
4. a picture or other representation of this.
5. severe and unjust punishment or suffering; persecution.

Crucifixion
noun
1. a. The act of crucifying; execution on a cross.
b. Crucifixion The crucifying of Jesus on Calvary. Used with the.
c. A representation of Jesus on the cross.
2. An extremely difficult, painful trial; torturous suffering.

Crucifixion
American Heritage Dictionary:
n.
The act of crucifying; execution on a cross.
Crucifixion The crucifying of Jesus on Calvary. Used with the.
A representation of Jesus on the cross.
An extremely difficult, painful trial; torturous suffering.

Definition of Crucifixion
1 a capitalized : the crucifying of Christ
b : the act of crucifying
2 : extreme and painful punishment, affliction, or suffering

Definition of Crucifixion
noun
an ancient form of execution in which a person was nailed or bound to a cross: there is little evidence that the Romans used to flog their victims before crucifixion

Crucifixion
The act of nailing or fastening a person to a cross, for the purpose of putting him to death; the use of the cross as a method of capital punishment.
The state of one who is nailed or fastened to a cross; death upon a cross.
Intense suffering or affliction; painful trial.

Crucifixion
noun
a method of putting to death by nailing or binding to a cross, normally by the hands and feet, which was widespread in the ancient world


Crucifixion
noun
1 in past times, the act of killing someone by fastening them to a cross and leaving them to die
2 the Crucifixion
the death of Christ on the cross
3 also Crucifixion a picture or other object representing Christ on the cross

Really?

Well, Jesus did say; "If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)

So, yes I do rejoice, because I love Jesus. Which begs the question, if you love like you say you do, why do you not rejoice as well?

 

No, God is the authority.

So, then you are the authority on what God meant when he said, He created man in his own likeness and image, calling that creation good very good?

Sin means miss the mark, in terms of what that means to mankind, that means missing the mark of perfection, which I do quite often.

 

Actually Jesus probably looked more like this than the usual depiction of him as a emaciated weakling.

Since the Bible says Jesus came eating and drinking, he probably was not skinny and since he was a carpenter until the age of thirty, he was probably well muscled.

 

God has not pronounced man sinful, that is what men do to each other.

What do you think it means?

Who measures your progress? What is your model of perfection?

I say sin is to miss the sign of god. Only god is good.

We know we have missed the sign of god when we become anxious for anything.

 

Perception is a funny thing.

I have almost always seen jesus depicted as a fit individual who had been scourged.

We have no knowledge of him being a carpenter beyond the comment that he was a carpenters son. No record or commentary on his life between age 12 and age 3o or so. However, given his proclivity to be in his fathers house and his adept understanding of scripture, I would more think him to be studiously religious, a devotee to god.

 

No, I don't try to be one but that doesn't mean that some possibilities in my life aren't limited because I'm not one.

Typical, we were talking about whether love has limits, not whether love limits anything.

It would seem that you are saying that love has the limit of never being out of character and thus has at least that limit.

Again using the car illustration, if your car is broken, you will need to fix it, if you want to drive it again. There is no keeping of account, the car will just remain broken until it is fixed.

His interest is helping you get your "car" fixed, not in getting payment for it. The ransom is a free gift.

It is not God that "requires it", it is the nature of what was lost that requires it. If your car needs a new water pump, a new carburetor will not fix the problem.

It is justice that requires it, not God.

A failure to forgive does not "dissolve" the ransom, the ransom remains in place. A failure to forgive is a little like taking a shower with a raincoat on, it doesn't mean that the shower is not working, it just means you can't take advantage of it until you take the raincoat off.

Yes, God taught it to me.

Yep, my "hardened heart" does just what Jesus said; "If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father" (John 14:28) Too bad your "loving soft heart" can't find a way to love Jesus by rejoicing with him.

Did I say I was talking about you? Well, since you're taking it personally, that would be anyone who takes to heart your denial of the ransom sacrifice. (Matthew 23:13)

You teach what you think the Holy Spirit is teaching you but you are blinded to the fact that what you teach is contradicting what the Holy Spirit has actually said.

 

The wages of sin is death, tell me, who among mankind has not died?

Being made in God's image means that mankind has the capacity to imitate God's qualities, to be a reflection of his love and goodness but since mankind has free will, he can choose to do otherwise. As for calling his creation good, I already said what I believe that means.

Everyone should measure their own progress. (2 Corinthians 13:5)

God and Jesus.

Sign? Is God putting up billboards now?

Yep.

We know we have missed the "sign of God" when we find ourselves on broad and spacious road leading off into destruction.

 

If you Google images of Jesus, you will see that quite a few show Jesus with a concave stomach and so skinny you can count his ribs but not all are like that but then I didn't say all of them depicted him that way.

You mean other than this?

This is the carpenter the son of Mary and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon, is it not? (Mark 6:3)

 

Exactly, love is unconditional.

Exactly as I said, love can be considered to have limit only to the extent that it is consistent, does not behave out of character, and not because it makes the choice to be consistent, but because that is it's nature. Love never fails.

You are confused. Ransom is payment and the only payment that he was referring to is to "keep my sayings". His lesson was in how to invest ourselves to receive proper wages. This is what he means as I have come as ransom for many.
The gift of life is free, it is the wages of our life that we earn.
the teaching is a free gift, the ransom, the wages are the rewards of faithful works.
Not everyone who says to me, lord, lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who keep my sayings.

And you don't repair a water pump by breaking another one.

God is judge, not justice.

Yep, you can accept the idea of ransom sacrifice and have all sorts of maudlin affection for the event that you imagine, but is you do not learn mercy it is all for not, because it is not sacrifice that is required, but mercy.

So it is yours.

I am full of the joy of holy spirit just as he had promised and yes I am joyed that his spirit is commended to god. The fact is he didn't have to be crucified in order to do that. The crucifixion is a passion play, a guerilla theater to demonstrate principle. To demonstrate in the most severe and glaring terms the nature of the issues facing us.

We reap the wages of sin because we have taken upon ourselves a function that does not belong to us, that is to determine the nature of good and evil.
Christ was innocent of all charges and yet he was still condemned on the strength of accusation. When given the choice between the vision of innocence and the vision of guilt, the people choose guilt. Christ is crucified because the people choose guilt. The people as well as christ are redeemed through forgiveness. Instead of an accusation against those who persecuted him, he asked that they be forgiven. Which is exactly as he preached. he did not preach an eye for an eye, even saying that is not correct, this other is the correct path to redemption.

Doesn't apply to any context we are discussing, and certainly doesn't apply to a belief in "ransom sacrifice".

What does the holy spirit sound like?