Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

We know the distortion that paul taught. Jesus taught no such thing. You are heavy heavy on tradition and ever so lite on the teachings of christ. I desire mercy not sacrifice. You still have not learned what this means.

 

The truth is boring to you, well that figures.

 

As opposed to the distortions that you teach?

We know that those that were led by the Holy Spirit, considered Paul to be led by the Holy Spirit but you don't consider him to be so led. Just another example that your spirit buddy is not teaching you the truth.

Since you don't like Paul, will you believe Peter?
Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)

As for heavy on tradition, the fact that you call the teachings of God's word, tradition and try to lead people away from that truth, pretty much puts you in opposition to the teachings of the Christ. (Matthew 5:17-19)

 

You do not know the sayings of jesus if you believe this. To make comparisons is not an abomination to anyone.

I compare your beliefs to the pagan slaughter of chickens. I do not compare the teaching of christ to the slaughter of chickens. Christ did not teach the idea of sacrifice. That you believe so, distorts the meaning of words like patience and mercy and justice.

The reason you cannot convince or silence me or that you feel threatened by the very fact that I speak is due to the indefensible nonsense you believe in. Your belief is vile of it's own right, it need not be an affront to god and in truth it is not. Like I said, you cannot prove me wrong but you could convince me with the truth.

 

As I have highlighted above, Peter says, but being made alive in the spirit. It is not a dead body that is required, it is not blood that is required, it is the resurrection that establishes the atonement, not crucifixion. His life after death undoes the verdict of sin. Peter says that he might lead you, to god, not make you worthy of god.

 

Read Karen Armstrong's a history of God and see how, if read chronologically the Old Testament shows Yahweh evovling from a character who walked throughout the Garden of Eden and was a tribal Deity to the Universal, transcendent being that we think of today. Sacrifice was a central part of Old Testament Judaism, therefore as God became more and more removed from humanity the meaning of sacrifice evolved as well. Leave it to Paul of Tarsus to come up with this atonement theology nonsense. What started as a set of ethical teachings by a man named Yeshua (Jesus) that showed a better way for people to treat each other ended as a metaphysical contruct involving The Christ, a completely un-Jewish idea. Christianity is NOT about trying to live one's life according to the teachings of Jesus, it is about believing that the Christ was the only son of God who had to die for our sins. It is a hideous, sadistic, cruel philosophy that emphasizes sin and guilt. I was raised Catholic but in an ambivalent way and I began to reject those teachings at age 12 when I started to think critically about the concept of Heaven and the Afterlife. Anyone who actually reads and studies the Bible and a little bit about the history of Christianity will realize what a load of garbage it all is, and the fact that we have these anti-intellectual morons trying to run this country shows how uncivilized the USA really is.

 

I should amend what I have said of Paul. What he taught has become a distortion. What I have said regarding the holy spirit is that it teaches with symbols that are unmistakable to you. That is in Paul's case as I have suggested before, being a zealot, it was important to him that his understanding not offend his own world view. That is he keeps some of what is old and takes out some of what is new, building on his own foundation. He had a need to marry tradition to new practice to make it acceptable to himself.

 

I have found the Bible to contain all truth, of course I have read many, many books that are written by people whose views are contrary to the words recorded in the book of life, but in the main, they are ignorant to the reality of the world that surrounds them, through which, when corrolated with God's word, lights the way to the key that unlocks the door that leads to eternal life. Such people are in need of our pity and our support.

 

I do not wish to silence you, I just don't want people to be mislead by you and being prevented from availing themselves of the Christ's sacrifice.

The only reason I can't convince you is that you do not respect the truth and have venerated the lie.

 

Is pity support?

 

You just continue to ignore the truth.

It is not a dead body but the death of Jesus that is important.

Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many. (Matthew 20:28)
we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man]. (Hebrews 2:9)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:5-6)
For, indeed, Christ, while we were yet weak, died for ungodly men at the appointed time. For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die. But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)
For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living. (Romans 14:9)

But will you listen to the truth? You haven't so far.

You say; "it is not blood that is required" but is that the truth?

“Drink out of it, all of YOU; for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:27-28)
This means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many (Mark 14:24)
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood (Romans 3:23-25)
But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath (Romans 5:7-9)
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of the Christ? (1 Corinthians 10:16) . . .
Consequently whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)
By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness. (Ephesians 1:7)
But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. (Ephesians 2:13)
because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens. (Colossians 1:19-20)
However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]. For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the extent of cleanness of the flesh, how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God? (Hebrews 9:11-14)
Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place. (Hebrews 9:22)
For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own. Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself. And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation. (Hebrews 9:24-28)

And you might want to pay special attention to this one;
Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? (Hebrews 10:29)

These are but a few of the Scriptures that deal with these subjects but you chose to ignore them all.

 

More reasons for you to ignore what Paul wrote under inspiration of Holy Spirit.

 

thedope:

Not sure s-word "pities" you enough to answer that thedope ;D

He's such a cranky old goat! : D


OWB:

His death was not important, not even how he died, - it in no way contradicted how he lived: loving.


OWB to thedope:

You misunderstand thedope. Under nearly every condition you have to. lol
Blood is not required to be spilt to atone for ones failings in life, but it is nonetheless required for life.
It is spirit. Understand?! Please tell me if you need me to not be finding this funny in order to do so. I can be deeply cutting if you like! : D


I am willing to find all my equal, but I do not demand that they be so on condition of blood sacrifice. Will you understand this?

 

Like I say, you take these things and make a distortion out of them. I do not ignore them. I interpret them differently than you.

You might want to pay special attention to the fact that these things are not christ teaching, but as I have said, symbolism that is important to paul.
Of course you cannot make these important distinctions about what you read because you have that idolatrous devotion to the bible. Which by the way, has nothing whatsoever to do with christ teaching.

For example one of your quotes talks about jesus being made a little lower than the angels. I can assure you that jesus taught no such thing, why would he? Jesus addressed this perception of higher and lower telling his disciples they did not understand. In the kingdom of heaven the first become last and the last first.

Teaching from matthew is not about his death but his life and resurrection.
Blood of the covenant is not blood "spilled", but "poured out", that is invested, given, not taken.

Further, do you really believe I will be punished for not believing as you, as in I ought to "pay special attention to this one." As I have said before, you spew a lesson of fear and retribution wrapped in a perverted sense of mercy.

 

I just quoted them and in fact only quoted some of them, in order to keep the post short. How is it that merely quoting Scripture is a distortion?

I guess you missed this teaching of the Christ; Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many. (Matthew 20:28)

As for them not being "christ teaching", you seem to be ignoring the fact that the whole Bible is God's teaching, including those things that are Christ's teachings.

Once again you try to lead others away from God's word the Bible, I assume just so people will not examine the Scriptures to see if what you are saying is true or not. (Acts 17:11)

Once again you try to emphasize what you think Jesus taught or didn't teach and ignore what God teaches. You have accused me of worshiping the Bible, which I don't but you seem to be worshiping Jesus rather than God.

And yet he died and for us and you seem to want to ignore that.

Again you make distinctions over words and ignore the fact the Blood was necessary.

You will not be punished for not believing as I do but the Scripture from God says that those who "trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt", will be. If you fall into category, then yes, you will be punished.

As for messages, you do not speak for God but "spew" forth Satan's lie to tickle the ears of your listeners. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

 

You seem to be ignoring me OWB! It's as though I'm too much for you! lol

 

Those are really good questions. This is why I don't accept the sacrifice-atonement model of Christianity introduced by Paul. Many early Christians didn't accept it either.

 

I'd say maybe to show mankind that even when God itself comes down to Earth in human form and teaches and shows how to get along and shows us the light that humans are so dispicable they'll kill God.

 

There is no logical explanation. You just don't nail your only son to piece of wood because of a bunch of sins YOU created. The bible was written and edited by thousands of people over the course of history.. It's just the ancients version of wikipedia..Don't take every word it says as truth...

 

More like too little.