Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

I agree. As an allegory, the cross represents the most fearsome instrument of control the Roman bureaucracy had to offer, but Jesus triumphed over it. Pontius Pilate and Caiaphas are best known today as incidental characters in the story of Jesus, who endures in the hearts of Christians around the world. To the extent we understand his message of love, we have the opportunity to rise above the brutality that led to His sacrifice.

 

With no point of reference for death. They did not violate the will of god for if it were forbidden it would not have been eaten. He did not say you may not eat because I forbid it or it is not my will, but that they would die for it.

The only thing that caused them difficulty was an error in judgement.
And still now, all anxiety is caused by the misapprehension of what is so.

 

What did you have mind?

They all now were facing death and a life of hardships.

Are you suggesting that they be immediately be put put to death? Then where would we be? Since they did not have children yet, we would have died with them.

Jesus was not a manifestation of God, Jesus was his son, the first of his creations.

And has already been said, since Adam gave up perfect life, a balancing perfect life would have to be paid so that perfect life could be returned to mankind.

It is not as simple as that, God will not force people to accept the ransom sacrifice that was paid by Jesus, so he is giving each individual time to accept or reject that ransom.

Plus at the same time that God has been working out mankind's salvation, a "universal court case" has been playing out. Satan did not just challenge God's power, a case he would have easily lost but he said that God was ruling incorrectly and basically abusing his right to rule, implying that he and mankind could do a better job without any help from God. So God has allowed Satan and mankind time to try and prove that true, what we see around us has proven Satan wrong but there are still those claiming they can fix it. So God will have to let the case play out until he is the only way out, thus proving the case for all time and no one will be able to say if you had only given us a little more time.

The point was perfect life for perfect life and not brutal and bloody torture. God did not put his son to death, it was Satan and mankind that did that.

 

Oh dear. Serves me right for venturing into this sub-forum.

 

Adam and Eve had all the mental ability they would need to make right decisions, in fact being perfect they had better ability to do so than any man that ever lived since.

Adam and Eve were not three year olds they were full grown adults and had all the abilities of any full grown adult to make decisions; in fact, as I pointed out, since they were perfect their decision making abilities were better than any adults alive today.

The message behind what you are saying is that people should believe what you say no matter what the facts are.

 

Animals were not created to live forever and thus died. So Adam and Eve could observe that and would have had a "point of reference for death".

 

Yep, come here and you'll get your questions answered and we all know that no atheist wants that.

 

Oh yes, I've always wanted to tap the knowledge of a creationist who believes that the world is 6000 years old. Now excuse me, I'm off to join the Flat Earth Society and renew my membership of the Alchemists Association.......

 

Once again one can define words pretty much any way they want but the when it comes to what kind of faith God wants from us, we are told at Hebrews 11:1; Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

 

Did I ever say the earth is 6000 years old? Last time I heard the earth was billions of years old, do you have problem with that?

I guess it's good you're leaving why would we want to tap the knowledge of a member of the Flat Earth Society and the Alchemists Association.

 

What makes you think humans were created to live forever and animals were not. As animals we have the biologic destiny of animals.

As far as a reference for death, there has never been any testimony from beyond the grave.

If we were created to live forever, then god must be mistaken in his creations.

 

OWB:

Seems to me you can't be straight. You blame human error on adam, satan, and "god" knows who else. Are you as ready to forgive humans as you are to 'excuse' them using your sundry scapegoats?

For love of human kind. Your belief in satan divides you as a theist. Do you know satan?

Landlord, but not the property manager huh? The world is innocent. It's not a science fair project that satan stole from god for the glory of pretending it to be his own. Sorry.

You're right, my saying it doesn't make it so. If, like your god, I "choose to forsee it" ( sic ) do you think it might be? I mean, do you in any way know how to test the truth of a thing in yourself? Do you understand the idiom "to ring true"? Your substituent justice is an imbalance.

Life is not 'exchanged' in the same way as your petty cash.

Using your own analogy, your "ransom sacrifice", is not even a replacement or compensation, just stealing in turn. A good old fashioned eye for an eye. You want to replace a loss with a loss. There's no need to be ashamed if the maths baffles you, even though I feel embarrassed for you that your archaic faith doesn't 'add up'.

Your belief in inherited sin is bizarre. If the price has been paid, why does suffering persist? Your talk of deaths cost is ridiculous. Your god is death. The means to what you imagine will be your resurrection.

Are you in possession of yourself OWB?
Who do you think you are, saying this world belongs to satan?
You might remember one day I was willing to make light of your problem with life.

 

Sure, and I suppose the animals LIED to them too so they could experience contradiction.

 

OWB,

I asked you to explain how non-existence is a bad thing. You answered that most people consider not existing to be a bad thing. But I did not ask you whether or not most people consider not existing to be a bad thing or not. I asked you to explain how not existing--not being aware--is felt as a bad experience. Keep in mind that no experience or feeling exists for the one who is dead. Now try again.

Quote: "Yeah, God is going to warn them about something that didn't exist yet, please try to think your questions through first."

Whether you know it or not, you are saying that there was a negative influence outside God's awarness. Whose fault would that be?

 

The question was asked, is satan necessary.

Not to god I would say, not to me. But satan is absolutely necessary to waterbrothers belief system.

Someone or something must be made to account for or make amends for hardness of heart, a heart that has condemned the world and every brother in it.

Love does not seek it's own, has no need for recompense for all it beholds is itself.

In the creation story, god does not even know what man had been up to only sensing his absence until man made his own declaration as to what had transpired. "We hid because we saw we were naked and were ashamed." They had taken to judging themselves and their condition as unacceptable.

The devil means, slanderer.

 

According to the doctine of man, it appears that God was the serpent in the garden.

 

Sorry, I made you so upset.

I thought we we just having a discussion.

Perhaps when you calm down we can continue the discussion.

 

And what does this have to do with what was said?

 

Adam and eve had no reference to assess the consequences of death. That warning was of no consequence. It was not the appeal of death either that motivated them to eat, it was the idea that they would be like their father if they did. The serpent convinced them that they were unlike the father without the knowledge of good and evil.

To this day, for many, being judgmental is close to godliness.

 

You didn't upset me OWB. What of the discussion do you want to continue?