When looking for a community..what should we really be looking at ?

Discussion in 'Communal Living' started by dilligaf, Jul 8, 2008.

  1. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

    Messages:
    6,640
    Likes Received:
    14
    I've always got a little bit twitchy over people playing head games on the net, pretending to be who they are, in fact, it is most likely one of my favorite rants.

    I never considered that my annoyance might be related to how I started on the net. I've been logging on since before the net became public, when 99%of the the people online (on the net or bbs's) we're all very similar, very earnest geeks for the most part. Of course there were always some who played head games, but where they used to be the minority, they are now by far the majority.

    Personally, I don't get it... Why would a person spend time talking to people online and pretending to be someone else? On the of chance they meet someone they enjoy talking to to, it is a complete waste. The person who they are talking to isn't talking to them, its talking to a phantom that doesnt exist.

    As for talking to ex-members of places to get an idea what they are like. Unless you spend time getting to know that person, why would you believe what they say anymore then what the active members of the community are? Makes as much sense as believing what someone on the property tells you without qualification.

    Am I being overly paranoid about this? Go ahead ask Alex (I think that was his name, the guy from Europe or Asia), what he thinks of the highway child or hhb and dill.... If that doesn't demonstrate the point, nothing will...

    I think it's likely clear to everyone by now that I would rather chase those type away online before they ever get here.

    The only true way to find out what a place is like is to meet the people, and work beside them for a while.

    This doesn't mean people shouldn't ask ex-members what it was like, as long as it is kept in perspective as to where it is coming from.

    The biggest thing to keep in mind, is that you should never put yourself in a position that you are 'trapped'. That is why I am always telling people to at the minumum, go get a pay as you go cell phone. Even if you have no time on it, you can call 911 and they can come find you (gps locators in every cell phone these days). If you were really paranoid, get two, and keep one hidden (in case someone steals the first one). Never, ever, go visit a community without telling others in your life where you are going, and how to get in touch with you. If where you are going is somewhere that is out of service areas, make arrangements to call friends or family once and a while on a set schedule. Explain that you would like to do this BEFORE you go to the place though, springing on people that you expect to be brought to a phone 100 miles away once you are already there, would be a bad thing.

    What else... oh yeah, a leader... I don't even know where to go with that one... except to disagree whole heartedly with the stated opinion of;
    Not the sentiment of what I beleive was meant by that, just the words chosen. If there is a leader in terms of you will do everything I say when I say it and I will lead you to the promised land type of thing, then yes run.
    By the same token, if you are told, 'we have no leader, it is all done co-operatively...' fucking run even faster. There is ALWAYS a person who is in charge. On occasion they will hide this fact by saying, we are a co-operative effort, and then use manipulation and coercion to get people to follow them. Anyone who thinks that a group of humans will get together and not form some form of power structure has zero clue about human nature. I should point out, that if you could hand pick people from across the world and bring them together, a co-operative arrangement could be worked out, and after years of people being together and developing into a co-operative it could be good. In any case though, if you are told that when you come on the property you have the same amount as say as anyone else in everything... run... either you are being lied to, set up, or joining a group of dreamers that will fail and take you with them...

    lol and on the note of what and how things are said on the net.... You'd have to ask people who know me to find out if I talk the same. Ask Kalypso when she is around. Ask anyone who has met me, almost all will tell you the same thing, I am just as big of a dick as I portray myself to be and speak just like I type. For those of you who may wonder why? Because I don't have the time, energy or patience to act in any other manner besides who I am, and those who don't like it, have no place around me.
     
  2. bluesafire

    bluesafire Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,757
    Likes Received:
    4
    I think what it comes down to is this, and I'll speak in personal terms here. I am not a sheep. And cryptoman is not a sheep. And yet neither one of us has a personal need or desire to be a leader, although at various times in our lives we've naturally fallen into that role, as circumstances dictated. We are quite comfortable following someone or a group if what he/she/they are doing resonates with us. If not, we're outta there. So what I'm saying is that we really can't be led unless we're already headed that way or it feels right to us.

    What we're looking for in a "community" is basically the same kind of cooperative relationship that we currently have between us. The way it works with us is that there is no defined "leader" of the family. In fact anyone who is around us will testify that we are about as equal as anyone can get. We've even flipped flopped roles at various times... who's the primary breadwinner, who takes care of the child, etc. We don't compete with each other for power or leadership. We value one another's intelligence, insight and input. In some areas one of us will naturally take lead because he or she knows more about it technically, has experience, etc., but anytime a decision needs to be made that has impact on the other one, we make it together. I think being flexible helps greatly, and also the fact that we have great harmony between us.

    So we're not interested in someone leading us... we're too strong for that, and too independent. Yet we have proved that two such people can join together without a power struggle. So I can assume it's possible for more than 2 to join in this way. I suppose people who are typically sheep-like would do alright with us, especially because we would do everything in our power to empower them and to give them an equal voice. But if someone tried to exert their "authority" or "power" over us we wouldn't take to that. We're not interested in that kind of thing.

    And maybe what we're looking for isn't the typical human-nature kind of group. Maybe we're just too odd for the typical ways and maybe because of that we won't get to do this in a group. Who knows? But this is one of those things... it has to be right or not at all.
     
  3. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

    Messages:
    6,640
    Likes Received:
    14
    Well Bluesafire,

    I wonder why that was there? You even quoted it in your reply, then went on to reply like I had said you two were sheep, and then went on to explain how it is that you agree with what I just said, in terms of you disagreeing with it?? Very odd....

    As for neither of you wanting to be a 'leader' or such. Neither do I, but I sure as hell am not going to allow people who haven't contributed an equal amount of what we have, to have equal say over what goes on. This issue is well covered in another thread...

    If you owned property that you had worked your ass of (in whatever manner that was), to get, you are then going to turn around and give it to others to do with as they please? Which means someone who comes on can decide to build an open pit mine in the center of the property? Because, if there is nobody 'in charge' why couldn't they? Or do you wish to got the other way, nothing gets done unless everyone agrees to it? So, after doing whatever the person did to get the property, they now have to bargain and convince others to do what they wish?

    Don't get me wrong here, this isn't directed at you personally in terms of I don't think you would make it in a group, or anything like that. These are things that you will have to deal with if you try to join or form a group. I put a lot of thought and energy getting to where I am in my opinions on these issues, because of the way people are. Might you be different and not of the same ilk as the 'sheep'. Of course you could be different, but how does a person who owns a property know that? How would they know without you being there and working along side of them? Which you won't do if you don't have an equal say in things.

    I've already started this twice in a 'co-operative' fashion. I've seen what happens when there is no 'leader' to a group. Perhaps it would be different with other people, but why would I risk my life, my home, my future, on the chance that someone may be different then the others who have said they wanted to do this and then bailed at the worst possible moment?

    There seems to be a sentiment that I am not friendly about these things and I have even had people tell me that I am not what they would call, very encouraging in gathering others around me. I used to have the belief that everyone was equal, that everyone did what they thought was right (to their view), that everyone has the equal right to speak their mind. It was a nice fantasy, right up until reality kicked in. I have changed over the years, with each fresh example of why everyone is NOT equal when judged by their actions.

    Let me makes this as clear as possible... We just put in 60k to purchase the property we bought. We will spend another 5k or so getting it ready for winter, each and every day, my investment goes up in real terms, from insurance to taxes to 'stuff' needed on the property. In the spring, it will take another huge jump as we get set up for animals and gardens.
    So, by next spring, we will be upwards of 70k or so that we have put into this. That has nothing to do with day to day living costs either, those aren't investments in to the property. So... next spring if a couple showed up on the doorstep, and they don't have 35k to simply hand over, why should I give you an equal say in what goes on? Remember, that 35k is in addition to the money you will have to bring in on a daily basis. Insurance on the property is 68 or so a month, taxes are another 25-30 a month. Keeping the entrance open year round will cost another couple of hundred a year, and so on and so forth...

    Oh yeah, I do not have a wonderful typing style, I have neither the desire nor ability to change my words to sound better to someone else. I'm pretty sure anyone who has talked to me for any amount of time knows that when I make a personal comment about someone, I am very clear what I mean and how I mean it. If anyone reads this, and thinks to them self, he is attacking my character or, questioning my resolve, then you have misread it all. These issues apply to anyone and everyone, but not in any specifics. When I wish to attack someone, it is really clear I am doing do.

    And to wrap this up, I am 100% up for listening to solutions to this, that would allow something like this to be set up on a co-operative basis WITHOUT sacrificing the security of what we want to build.
     
  4. bluesafire

    bluesafire Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,757
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hey CT... I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding and I apologize if my response seemed confusing. The purpose behind what I last wrote was just to expand on the whole leadership topic and specifically explain where we're coming from. I wasn't disagreeing with you or responding as if you had different ideas about leadership. I did get your point that you made before, so please don't take my response personally because it wasn't directed in a critical way toward you at all.

    I completely understand about the practical aspects of... if you buy land and equipment, sink a bunch of money into the property, put in a bunch of work, then why would you grant equal say to someone who just happens to show up. And I don't disagree at all. The way I (we) would approach it really depends on the timing and circumstance. Like, right now we don't have the land & property yet. So if we develop a relationship with someone that we felt we really trusted like we do each other, and THEN went in on a property together, doing all the work together, etc., then it would be an equal thing from the start. If he and I started something and someone wanted to join us after the fact, then we would have to have that type of relationship established before we granted them equal partnership (but this would have to occur at some point or the person would need to leave). The same thing goes for the off chance that we would join someone in an existing community... we would need to establish that kind of bond before we would join as full members, but once full membership was established we would want a completely equal say.

    The key to all this is the bond, the relationship, the trust. We are very sensitive to people's energy and spot BS quickly. We would need to feel very sure of someone & very sure of the relationship before we attempted to join in this way. And this isn't about anyone being perfect... hell we're not perfect but the things we're not "perfect" about aren't the big important issues. Some things would have to be present, like the trust, the feeling that we could depend on one another, the sense that someone isn't going to be selfish and petty or play ego games, etc.

    And so it basically comes down to... at the point that we established trust then everything that is ours would be theirs as well. It's like marriage without the prenup. Many people that start communities want some kind of prenup (just in case, ya know). And the way I feel about prenups is... if you really feel you need one then it's not the kind of marriage that I'm interested in.

    And ultimately, if something does happen down the road and the relationship breaks up, which might cause some kind of disruption of the community's funds or resources, then I'm willing to let it go if need be. I'm not one to cling to material possessions. I don't believe there is such a thing as ultimate security in the world. And people that try to establish that are fooling themselves, in my opinion. At some point if we want to have relationships in our lives we have to take a chance with people, or else be willing to go at it alone. There are no absolute guarantees of anything.

    It's possible to feel that level of trust with someone, because I feel that with cryptoman now, although I must admit it's rare. But even with him I had to take a chance, and still do every day, not expecting that there's absolute guarantee that we will stay together, although I would be highly surprised if it were otherwise.

    Again, CT, I'm basically just expanding on my thoughts and this isn't directly in response or contradiction to anything you've said. I hope that makes sense.
     
  5. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

    Messages:
    6,640
    Likes Received:
    14
    I'm just getting too sensitive and completely gave up on tact these days blue... lol ignore that part of it...

    The only part of that which I disagree with is the whole equal say part of it, and I think it may be more of a clarification then anything.

    If someone joins as a permanent member, should they have an equal say in the activities on the property, absolutely. It's the ownership issue that bothers me more then anything. As soon as there is more then one owner to the property, they 'security' of it all goes out the window. That doesn't matter if you are talking about a spouse (whom I share everything with, but is not on the ownership of the property), or people that want to join.

    Let's look at it from the position of someone coming in. If we we're to do an equal share type thing with anyone that was a 'full member', and a couple comes along, hangs out for a year we all get along great... Then, even though this is not likely to happen, Nicole decides she wants out, and even though we have already discussed the issue that the property isn't to be broken up, decides she wants to take me to court, the court can simply order the property sold, or her 'share' of it be paid out in cash, which we may not have at the time.

    The same applies to everyone if their is equal ownership. I'm not willing to risk my future and my families future like that.

    Having said that I will point out the other side of it to save time. This way, everyone is pretty much at the will of the person named on the deed. At least in terms of it being sold out from under them. The best answer I have to that, is I haven't spent this many years working towards it to quit... lol

    Other aspects have been considered... selling actual shares of it on a co-op basis. The problem I see with that, is then you have multiple things going on that will cause it to self destruct (imo), first off, if a person wants out, and decides to sell their share, youthen have to go through a whole process of interviewing people and making a decision right away, as to wether or not they can buy into the community and have equal share to those who built it. Doesn't seem right to me in any form. The other aspect of that is what value they sell the share for. If they can charge what they want for it, then the whole thing becomes nothing more then a subdivision.

    Just a note on the whole getting to know people before starting. We have a tri-plex here that we have been renovating and is now listed for sale. We have always been open to people coming and joining us here while we did it, which would have given each a chance to get to know each other and be part of it right from the start. I have many many people who have said, as soon as it all starts, I'll be there, and when I say well, we can start this way, I hear a thousand stories of why the other things they are doing are more important.

    What gets me about all of this is that I haven't just spent the last decade or so flipping real estate and building equity to get to this point. I also gave up on a lot of things that people take for granted. Everything from buying the cheapest food, and wearing clothes til the die an undignified death, not having a brand new anything, I haven't owned a vehicle in years, last time I traveled was, well before this all started.... the point being, I have put everything I am, have, and could find, into doing this, so I tend to get annoyed at, well, this year I'm traveling to a bunch of festivals and next year I told this friend I'm going to help them out, but then I'll be there...

    It also extends to people saying oh we'll come, and after a year, if we like it we will put everything we have into it... I do understand that part of it, as in why someone would say it, but it doesn't make it any less aggravating to hear it.

    What else can one say besides, okay, this is the way I am doing it, come and join if you want, don't bother me if you don't?
     
  6. bluesafire

    bluesafire Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,757
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hey CT, don't worry about it. It's really easy to misunderstand someone on the internet. Either someone doesn't explain themselves very well or we don't hear it the way it was intended. That's why I like in-person meetings SOOOOO much better. :)

    And about what you're comfortable with regarding community, well that's the thing. We all have to do what we're comfortable with and what feels right to us. There's no right or wrong way of doing things and your way is completely valid and justified for you.

    I realize that what Cryptoman and I are looking for is probably very rare to find, and maybe it'll never happen. Basically... and I realized this more clearly after writing on this thread... what we really want is an extended marriage-like situation. To trust someone to the level that we trust each other, to want to be together with someone in a very close setting and to share everything. I'm willing to share everything... and I do mean EVERYTHING once my intuition says to me "yes this person is really my friend". And the way cryptoman and I are... if for some reason we did decide to split up we'd leave as we are. We wouldn't be vengeful in ANY way, wouldn't try to take something from the other.

    In fact, we've split up once before for a very short time. It was something we were going through and turned out to be a big learning experience for us. Since then we've grown way closer and have solidified our commitment to each other. But the point is that while we were split up we were still acting like friends. We still gave each other stuff... money, whatever we needed. We wanted to make sure that we were OK. We're not petty with each other at all, whether we're together or not. And I know if I felt I needed to leave I'd never try to split up the property or make trouble for anyone there. That's just not the kind of person I am and neither is Crypto. So we're looking for others who are the same way, who we can tell just from the way we feel around them that they are truly kind hearted and giving people and not at all vengeful.

    I really know that it would have to be that kind of relationship or else we won't want to do this with others. Maybe it sounds like all or nothing. But that's what feels right for us.

    Anyway I just want to tell you that I hope everything works out for you exactly the way you want it to. If I had to bet, I'd bet that it would be easier for you to actualize your dream than it would be for us. But, that's OK. We accept what is, and the rest is up to the powers that be.
     
  7. zihger

    zihger Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,421
    Likes Received:
    2
    No offense Chronic Tom.
    But.. Why would someone want to move out to some vacant land and have you be his or her leader?

    This world is full of opportunities why would someone choose that?

    And what are you leading this community to?

    Do you have industry of some sort you are going to set up to live off of ?

    Or will your “lower class members” just do chores for you.
     
  8. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

    Messages:
    6,640
    Likes Received:
    14
    Generally when it starts with No offense... it means just the opposite...

    and I do take it that way.

    But I will answer you anyway...

    People like you.... wouldn't.... and if they did, I wouldn't want them.

    People who wish to build a home for themselves that will support them in a community of individuals working towards the same thing.

    That is not something I expect you will understand though, so feel free to make another half-assed attack by all means...
     
  9. zihger

    zihger Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,421
    Likes Received:
    2
    You didn’t answer what I was asking..

    Why would someone want you to be his or her leader?

    This is not an attack this is about intentional communities “intentional” communites. When things are intentional you discuss them and become aware of the aspects of them. That is what makes them intentional.

    So..
    Why would someone want you to be his or her leader?

    And what are you leading this community to?

    Do you have industry of some sort you are going to set up to live off of ?

    You keep talking about people you don’t want. What about you.. why do people want you to be their leader?

    Just the other day you made it about me.. I had no problem with that I can tell you all about me.
     
  10. Selfsustaingsociety

    Selfsustaingsociety Member

    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    1
    hey, Zihger, CT answer's some of those questions on his website, or he did last time I checked. Not for everyone, but it's a clear plan that has merit. the reason I decided to jump in to this thread again is that you bring up a great point that relates to the initial question. What would you want in a community. Not only that but your question: Why would someone want you to be his or her leader? I think has real merrit. If anyone wants to join a community with a established leadership structure, what would you be looking for/looking out for. if you were/are a community leader(if that's what be) why would people want you, accept you and even expect you to take that role. I think it's a very valid question. Not talking to anyone specific just everyone on the communal boards in general. I want to hear what folks have to say!

    Personally if I was joining a community I'd want a council like leadership structure with legal backing. that way if the SHTF members might still have legal repercussions as well as knowing things would get looked after better because of those legalities. Also I think that a group of leaders would be better as it would represent the membership better. that's just my take. As to the land/money point that was brought up I am not personally cool with handing over my lifesavings to some guy/gal and expect them to just take care of everything. Some people are. Others still are comfortable with that till they lose everything. I'd want someplace with independant as well as group finances. That's what I'm pushing for the SSS as well. Same thing with land, it's great to have a community own the land, till hard time hit and people jet, leaving the core group to foot the bill. On the other hand a sole owner is more stable if they can afford it but it does let one person have an awful lot of sway. Best scenario I can think of is to have the land owned by one person or the core group till the community has enough communal funds to pay all the bills and expenses on it's own. Basically the community funds/activities are bringing in a good bit of extra cash that's not used up in maintenance or future projects. Once that point is reached the land should be bought by the community and the core group repaid using the extra cash and hopefully paid with interest set at inflation rate. could this ever happen, not sure but it has the advantage of having a stable backing when the community is starting and then the advantage of repaying the hard working core group as well as making sure the land is there after the core group has left or passed. This would hopefully maintain the longevity of the community to be able to weather many years, both good and bad.


    As to the other question. Why would someone want you to be his or her leader? I wouldn't want to be in a leadership position, I prefer to be behind the person making the decisions helping out when and where I can and offering my unmasked opinions. Being the guy helping refine and plan the decisions but not actually making them.

    IF and that's a big IF I had to make a case, I would say that the best thing would be that I don't like BS, I'll tell it like it is. With that I always try to see others points and I listen very well. I also know that I don't know everything and although it's not easy for me to ask for help, I am getting better. Also when I decide something I like to look at both short term and long term effects of the decision. Lastly I don't like taking charge but if others don't I'm always willing to pick up the slack or at the very least keep the deciders in check...

    So there it is, my take on all what Zihger said and more. What are your thoughts? What are your answers?
     
  11. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

    Messages:
    6,640
    Likes Received:
    14
    zihger, I answered your question as much as I'm willing to waste my time with you...

    sss, I just got back in, give me a bit to relax and I will reply...
     
  12. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

    Messages:
    6,640
    Likes Received:
    14
    Okay, to clarify some things that seem to have been overlooked...

    Seems like a pretty clear statement to me...


    Hmmm... apparently I'm still wondering why I put that there...

    I also wonder if I will need to quote the quote of my quote to get it across...

    The only part in which I said anything about being a 'leader' was here;

    That is a statement about human nature... It is my opinion that if you do not understand that, or why I would say it, then you just made a huge argument as to why you (whomever it is) shouldn't be in charge.

    Committees, groups and such , do not accomplish things together in an equal manner. There is always a person who becomes the focal point of everything, from both the shit and the good. This is the person who says, this is what has to be done, and how... and then finds ways to include the other people in a way that everyone feels comfortable doing so. Power struggles in such situations are common and destroy any chance of success if left unchecked.

    As to why someone may want to come to lost acres... because they are tired of being around the whiners and dreamers in the world that do nothing but attack those who actually 'do'. Why should they care what I think about it all? Because it's my sweat, blood, word and money that brought it about. If someone doesn't think I should be in that position, the solution is simple, don't come.

    This applies the exact same to any community of any type that a person may wish to join. When someone first shows up, are they going to be equal in terms of being treated with the same respect as those already there? Of course (if there is a different answer to this, then you really should reconsider). Are they going to have an equal say in what is done... no... not unless you are going to put an equal amount of resources into it. Do you have to put an equal amount of resources in? No, but you sure shouldn't expect to have an equal say if you do not. Should you 'give over' your money, rights to future money and or possessions? If you are insane... sure.. go for it... (note, don't bother coming here, because I won't take either your money or you if you are the type that is willing to do it).

    The funniest part of all this is that anyone could start a cult and gather a following of sheep... Start up a group, say, give me all your shit and shut up, and people flock to it...

    Say, hey come on up and be an individual, with other LIKE MINDED individuals, follow your passion in a way that it helps you AND your friends and neighbors and build a safe and secure home... and the response is.. you just want to run a cult.. you want to be leader... you want 'lower class citizens' to do your chores...

    Imagine that...
     
  13. zihger

    zihger Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,421
    Likes Received:
    2
    When looking for a community..what should we really be looking at ?

    Well for one thing when someone evades real life questions they are hiding something from themselves and the people that come in contact with them.

    When a community or a leader evades realistic questions and then goes into “living a dream blabla.”

    Well….. you can come to your own conclusions.
     
  14. TheLizardKingMike

    TheLizardKingMike Members

    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    5
    One word: Harmony.
     
  15. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

    Messages:
    6,640
    Likes Received:
    14
    Perhaps you should try reading instead of just spewing attacks...


    Here's some more things to look at.

    When you join a community, do you wish it to be one where people are free to do anything they want without any form of repercussion, or do you want to be in one where personal responsibility and integrity means something?

    Do you want to join one where some will sit around and bitch that what you are doing isn't good enough or the way they think it should be, or do you want one where the person who does that is told to head down the road?

    Is your idea of community about sharing of your life with friends to secure a future together, or is it about bitching and complaining about it not being easy enough for you?
     
  16. TheLizardKingMike

    TheLizardKingMike Members

    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    5
    I just want everyone to get along together as the human race. That is my top priority.
     
  17. zihger

    zihger Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,421
    Likes Received:
    2
    Know one is attacking you I think you are just try to discredit questions you don’t want to answer.

    Read what?
    Your pages of philosophical fantasies and theories or the arguments you start on almost every other thread you go on.
     
  18. bluesafire

    bluesafire Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,757
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hey you guys, I'd like to offer my perspective of the different viewpoints here, hopefully to bridge the gap of misunderstanding. I think some of you are coming from such different perspectives that you're not necessarily hearing each other but... please don't clobber me if I'm wrong. :D

    What I sense from ChronicTom is that he is offering a place to live, work and play, and commune with others, as long as it's all done in a balanced way where no one takes advantage by not contributing their fair share. Now what he's not offering is absolute equality in terms of ownership, but a relative equality in terms of having equal say in the running of the place, once your commitment and contribution has been evidenced. Also he's not promising to fulfill needs such as extra income or funding that may be necessary to obtain outside the property. That will have to be the responsibility of the individual. Obviously the personalities will have to mesh and so he's not trying to present a false front but is in fact quite honest in saying here I am take it or leave it.

    What I sense Zihger saying is that this kind of arrangement isn't appealing to him, and from everything CT said it still doesn't feel to him that CT is offering enough benefit to the community member. What I sense that Zihger wants is an equal say at ALL levels and doesn't feel that a heirarchy in leadership is necessary. But it's really not that CT hasn't answered the question of what he brings to the table, it's that what he brings to the table (in terms of his ultimate & final decision making as the property owner) isn't a good fit for what Zihger would be interested in.

    I really didn't sense that CT was lax in explaining himself. I just think Zihger didn't like the explanation, which is fine. CT strongly believes in the heirarchy-based social structure model, and Zihger doesn't. No one is right or wrong in how you think about it... you guys just have a different idea of what you want and what you believe will work.

    Why invalidate each other and make each other wrong? There's enough room in this world to experiment in all kinds of social models and it doesn't have to be a competition. They may work in completely different ways. There are many paths in life. Remember the hippy love, folks! Peace & Love, Peace & Love... All we need is love, lalalalala.... :p
     
  19. zihger

    zihger Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,421
    Likes Received:
    2
    ^Well I didn’t really have any judgments about CTs community I was just curious about it..

    I was just trying to ask him a couple of down to earth questions about it..

    He has a lot of philosophy and ramblings, which are kind of hard to decipher.

    So I was just asking a couple of realistic down to earth questions..

    The type of questions you would ask if you were looking for a community and wondering what should we really be looking at ?

    I might be open to having a leader type community if the people picked the leader or it was someone very spectacular that would lead the community into great prosperous things.
     
  20. oldwolf

    oldwolf Waysharing-not moderating Super Moderator

    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    51
    you know Hermann Hesse said something really intriguing in journey to the Wesr Or was it East (lo)l....we all go west (death)..."The best leader is he who none know is leading"...might be a slight paraphrase - but close.

    AS well a Truth many do not know...the greatest vulnerability gives the wielder invulnerability

    have at it

    Enjoy !

    Blessings

    Namaste
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice