whats gone wrong for the democrats?

Shaggie, just so you understand something (I'm finding that no matter what I say people just want to argue with me.) I never said nor even thought that urban areas are not usually more liberal and perhaps democratic, and that rural areas are often times more conservative. I completely agree with that. However, living in Delaware and not having our own news station I am forced to watch a PA station. All night long, all they kept telling us (considering PA was a swing state and very important) that the rural areas were voting for Kerry. Now I do not put it past the media to be wrong. They are all of the time. But all I stated here this morning is that is what they kept telling us. And they kept saying that the T area is the only place where Bush could pull out ahead. Again Philly did not carry the enitre state of Pennsylvania. It is a big city and mostly democrat, but PA is a big state and there are a lot of countrysides in there. Other people obviously voted for Kerry.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my other statement. And I'm sorry I was snappy because like I said I'm angry today. Mostly at other democrats.

 

Perhaps you don't understand the map shaggie posted.

 

I'm not trying to pick fights or argue the opposite to posts. I"m just stating a difficulty the dems have had in rural areas the past decade.

 

Maggie,
I had already typed out a post for you. I'm not sure why but I lost it somewhere. I'm going to calmly explain this to you because unlike you I am capable of being civil and open minded.

You have jumped to the wrong conclusion that because you know that I am a Green party member and a Nader supporter that I did not vote Kerry. Like I stated, you are wrong. I voted Kerry. Do you want to know why I decided to vote for him at the last minute instead of voting my conscience which I 've been telling others to do? Well, honestly since you gave your opinion I don't care if you want to know or not I'm going to tell you. I voted for Kerry because of you. And the other people like you that I have come in contact the past 2 weeks that somehow have convinced me (apparently I'm not as strong of a person as I thought I was) that I should vote for Kerry this election and try to make a change later, just to get Bush out of office. Actually a lot of people have done that. I bet they are kicking themselves now as I am. The lesson you should have learned is twofold. One, while you are entitled to your opinion and to voice it as loud and obnoxiously as you wish, don't jump to conclusions about people that you were not in the voting booth with ok. Second, don't try to tell people how to vote. Tell them why you support a particular candidate and leave it at that. If they choose to agree then they do, if not then so be it. But you really make yourself look stupid when you go off on rants like this. Not to mention that now I don't trust anything that you say because I realize now that you have attempted to undermine the principle of democracy by bullying people into believing what you believe.

You and many others know that I never liked Kerry. I honestly thought I was going to help this country by voting for him. For all of 2 minutes. As soon as I hit that vote button I hated myself. I will never again let anyone tell me not to vote what I believe in my heart to be right. I don't care how much you attack me or call me names or blame me for you and your candidate's shortcomings. I wished all day before they even started counting the votes that I had voted for Nader. I wanted to change it so bad. I felt guilty. I still feel badly. Not because I'm on the losing team, but because I sold out. I hate myself for it. Now I'm going to do everything in my power to make up for it. I'm going to make a change in this country unlike some people who just want to sit around and complain and blame others and make excuses.

Are Bush supporters to blame for him winning, of course. No one ever disputed that. That was the point. But they all voted for what they believed in. Unfortunately I don't feel that most of the people who voted for Kerry really voted for what they believe in and to me that is sad.

Maggie, there are a lot of reasons why Kerry lost. The Nader factor this time is not one of them. There is no way that even if all of the people who voted for Nader had voted for Kerry that he would have won. You got away with that cop out last election, but you can't blame them now. I live in Delaware, it is not exactly a swing state. I knew that Kerry would win here. I wish I had voted Nader, it would not have made a difference. But a difference could have possibly been made if everyone voted with thier conscience and heart and voted on issues. That didn't happen and honestly I don't think it will ever happen again. That isn't how this country works anymore.

Believe what you want Maggie, blame whoever you want to in order to make yourself feel better. But what exactly are you contributing to this society besides your hostility and negativity? If you really care you would educate people on the political system and not attempt to force them to agree with you. I've never tried to force my views on anyone, I just want the freedom to have an opinion. You take that away. I've been here long enough to learn to ignore people like you though. Ironic part of it all is, I actually thought you were fairly intelligent in the past. Now I just think, well you are no better than Bush forcing us to do what you want.

I understand that you might be angry today, as am I, but I disagree with where you are directing your anger. I might believe that some things could have been done differently that would have changed the outcome of this election, and I wish that people would see this and start to change. I hope to be able to teach them. But I know that screaming and yelling and name calling isn't going to get anyone to even consider my point of view, and only makes us look unintelligent and spiteful. Channel all of that energy elsewhere and make a difference.

I do blame Kerry. And that is my opinion and right. I also blame others. But pointing fingers really isn't getting us anywhere.

 

No I understand it just fine. Maybe you don't understand what I'm trying to say. All I'm saying was in response to one of his posts regarding that Philly carried the whole state of Pennsylvania. It is not possible. I know he never said that is what he thought, but rather one could argue that. I'm saying that it would be a hard arguement to make. Compare one city in PA, to the entire rest of the state. Even if everyone in Philly voted for Kerry (which I'm sure he had a high percentage there) there had to be people elsewhere voting for Kerry or he would not have won the state. And I'm not arguing that in the past democrats might have had difficulty in rural areas, they sure have and still do. I agree with that statement completely. Where I'm confused is why anyone would think that Philly is the cause for Kerry winning PA. Maybe I misunderstood the original statement. That happens sometimes. Honestly, this is the least of my concerns at the moment though.

And I'm not really trying to argue the opposite of posts either Shaggie. I knew what you meant.

 

Two cities.

Philadelphia and Pittsburg.

 

it bugs me to no end that people attack someone for voting for WHO THEY WANT. This is exactly why we have secret ballot, so we dont have a lynch the 3rd party supporters.

People are entitled to their opinion, and that doesnt make them an asshole. That makes them FREE.

 

Same with Wisconsin {Madison and Milwaukee}, Minnesota {Mpls and St. Paul},
Illinois {Chicago}, Michigan {Detroit}, NY State {NYC}, Washington {Seattle}, and iowa.

and almost in
Colorado, New Mexico, Missouri, and Ohio.

Boston to DC is actually just on big urban area, with several different names.

 

Megara is right on. Moral values trumped the economy and Iraq as priority issues for a huge contingent of voters, and 80% of them voted for Bush. I can only hope that Democrats will reconsider their "enlightened" moral bankruptcy on gay "marriage" and unrestricted abortion.

 

Also Maggie, I really wish you would read people's posts before going off like you did. When I was talking about Kerry not being the right choice, I meant in the primaries. As I stated, and you obviously did not understand because once again you were jumping to conclusions and chomping at the bit to belittle others and their opinions to make yourself feel better. (really you should seek therapy about that inferiority complex you've got there). In the same sentence I was talking about Dean being a better representitive for the democratic party as far as beating Bush in this election. I wasn't talking about the choice between Kerry and Bush. You would have understood that if you took the time to read my post and think about things.


And I'm not proud of myself like I stated. I wish even more so now when I see what true democrats are really like (exactly what I have been saying they were really like for 8 years) that I had voted for a third party.

You are WRONG Maggie. As much as you hate to believe this, you are wrong. There were more than two choices. You have been brainwashed just like everyone else. Now that I've had time to reflect on things. I blame you, and those just like you. You are the ones who alienated people, you are the ones who give democrats a bad reputation. You are the ones who are just like the republicans. No, not all dems, but if this is the attitude that you put forth, no wonder people are voting 3rd party. I wouldn't want anyone associating me with someone like you.

 

Hi Huck,
long time no arguing. heehe.
I was thining about this very thing this morning because that is what they were discussing on GMA and that is the only channel my rabbit ears pick up. I'm surprised I haven't actually thrown something at the tv this past week though. Anyway, these moral values that everyone is talking about. I don't understand. People keep saying that they voted a certain way (for Bush mostly) because of his moral values and they feel that Kerry doesn't posess any. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I was in and out of the room. But I don't understand what these religious values have to do with running a country. I mean ok I understand that to a lot of people abortion and gay marriage are moral or religious issues (even though I disagree) but that can't really be what everyone voted for can it? If that were the case I would imagine that more women would have voted for Kerry because of the abortion issue. I mean here at work the only thing that the women liked about Kerry was the fact that he wouldn't mess with abortion. But he really didn't get that women vote. And gay marriage, I don't know if that is really an issue. I mean I suppose it could become an issue but there are some more important issues out there. I mean we are at war. A war that was based on lies (or at least to the more informed who know that there are and never were WMD's in Iraq). And the economy. I mean I don't know much about economics and I don't exactly believe that Bush "killed" the economy, because there are many factors, but why wouldn't people be more concerned about that? Then there is healthcare and education. The two things that I feel are most important in this country. Maybe I'm the weirdo. I mean what about the fact that Bush has alienated most other countries and more than half of the world laughs at America. None of that stuff matters to anyone? Just these religious morals? I know you will not agree with me, but I think that is very sad. I mean I know that people make decisions all of the time based on what they believe whether it be simple right and wrong or religious beliefs or what have you, but really to elect a president which is a very mulit faceted job on something like what your religion dictates. Well, apparently it has happened. Whether I agree with it or not. I just don't get it. I must be too naive. I just didn't think those two issues indicated that Kerry had no morals. I don't know the man personally so I have no idea if he is a moral man or not, but if he wants to protect people I don't see how he could have no morals, or less than that of Bush who lied to go to war and sent boys over to die for his greed. Really my Bible didn't say that was moral. Bush has done a lot of immoral things.

Honestly, I don't think it has to do with morals. I think it has to do with a lot of the people were truely not educated on the issues at hand, neither side really stated their stance on issues (especially Kerry) and what their plan is, and the media didn't even make the real issues, part of this election. I also think that not enough people voted. The majority of the people I know just didn't vote because they didn't care or they didn't care for either candidate. I think had more people actually voted and more young people at that (boy am I mad at my peers today!!) and perhaps had people been more aware and sought out the truth instead of being fed a line of poo and believing it that perhaps the outcome would have been different.

Anyway, that is why I want to change things at least around my little area from here on out. I'm going to talk to people about politics everywhere I can whether I should or not. If I don't know something I will find out. I will share what I know, and let other people decide. I want to teach people to care and look for the truth and to decide what is best for them. I want to get people to vote, even if I have to take a day off of work and drive them to the polls in my own car for free myself.

Oh well, have a good day all. I have to do some work, before I get fired.

 

I'll point to a couple issues which I think have been ignored in this discussion. I think the big reason Bush beat Kerry is that Kerry comes off as a pussy, even though he's a decorated Vietnam vet. The other issue is that Americans are still very leery of anything that sounds too much like communism, which is what Kerry's health care talk conjured up.

We all know that elections are little more than glorified high school popularity contests. No matter what, Bush just comes off as being cooler than Kerry. The reason Clinton did so well was that he was cooler than his Republican opponents. I can't really give concrete explanations here; it's just a vibe I get, and I think a lot of people agree. If you gave Kerry and Bush blank slates, put them in front of the American people, and just had them introduce themselves, I'm confident that Bush would come off much better than Kerry. That's why Bush remains popular even though he's a fuck-up.

And the whole communism thing, well that's just America for ya. There's still this annoying sentiment of, "I don't want my hard-earned dollars to pay for some slacker's medical bills."

These aren't rational issues I've mentioned, but I think they are bigger than anything else these guys talked about, especially the coolness factor.

And for me personally, I think the biggest problem with the Democrats is that they still don't really offer a worthwhile alternative to the Republicans. Anyone who thinks the Democrats are a better option than the Republicans on the international stage needs to go ask the Rwandans about how much Clinton helped them or the people of East Timor about how happy they were to get killed by American weapons during the Carter administration. Both parties are ruled by evil racist powermongers.

 

I think it's fallacious to assume that most women are stridently "pro-choice." The most active element of the pro-life movement is 2/3 women. Also, among people (men or women) who vote primarily on the abortion issue, pro-lifers are a clear majority.

The potential societal ramifications of legalizing gay "marriage" are quite significant, as I've argued on Shane's "Gay Marriage" thread. I think that many people also resent the manner in which gay activists have tried to impose their agenda by judicial decree. Both abortion on demand and gay "marriage" are egregious cases of judicial usurpation of legislative authority.

This is hindsight. The rest of the world was convinced that Saddam had WMD before the war, and he certainly acted like he did. Also, the Deurfler (sp?) report clearly said that he planned to resume his WMD programs once sanctions were lifted. The sanctions were far more brutal than this war has been. There were no good options available in Iraq. Kerry definitely didn't offer any.

As many third-party candidates have noted, the differences between Bush and Kerry on these issues were not that great.

I can't say I care much about the opinions of the French or Germans, especially considering their corrupt and cozy relationship with Saddam.

Again, if Bush "lied" about Iraq, then so did many other national intelligence agencies. As for morality, the abortion death toll dwarfs that of the Iraq war by several orders of magnitude.

That's the sort of typical liberal elitism that continues to hurt Democrats.

 

Frankly, almost all democrats do.

Do you think Senator Kerry is going to share his secret "plans" now?

 

Over 50% of female votes this election were for Kerry, a pro-choice candidate.

 

Forgive my rage. I shouldn't have gone off on you.I am sorry.

I have only gotten two hours sleep last night, and have been in tears since about 11:30 last night.

I see my freedom going out the window and my country going down the tubes.

This still wasn't Kerry's fault, though. I heard too much "Gore didn't want it badly enough" in 200. This is my SEVENTH presidential election, and I have never been so upset. MY KIDS COULD GET DRAFTED! My children and I have to pay off this debt.

I am sorry I ranted at you, Bear, it wasn't just you, though. I am glad you voted Kerry, at least that isn't on your conscience. No, Nader wasn't a big factor this time. But looking at the politics in a sophisticated manner says that people really should KNOW better, and I am glad you did. I don't think the Dems did a bad job. Sadly, the people who vote Republican responded PERFECTLY to the type of tactics the Rep used.

Sorry for my vitriol. I am literally worried sick about my country, my future, the future of my childen and my freedom.

This wasn't a game. This was IT!

There is NO turning back now. Welcome the new Taliban. My kids will probably be taken away to fight in Iraq soon. I am working on getting them all Psych exemptions. Seriously.

This isn't for Bear, IF YOU AREN'T OUTRAGED, YOU AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION.

Hey Gabino, I'm a foulmouthed Democrat? F*** YOU!

 

why do you think your kids would be drafted under bush but not kerry? Kerry wanted to send like 40k troops to iraq...

 

How many of them cited abortion as the deciding factor in their vote?

 

Because the neocons that advise on Bush's foreign policy are calling for regime change in Iran and N. Korea, and we simply don't have the numbers to conduct that war, if they decide to wage it.

 

Well let's see, BushASSFACE started the fucking war, maybe?