What should happen to the next president who lies to his country to go to war?

She should be impeached.

 

For those who say that a more humane option than execution would be life in prison or solitary confinement: what is the dfference? As human beings, survival and happiness are synonymous. Without freedom and happiness, there is no life. There may be a pulse, but the person is in a state of death. Kill the guy, put the guy in prison, you are essentially taking away his life for all intents and purposes. There may be a diamond in the rought that stays "living" while in prison (like the guy on Shawshank Redemption), but no one can assume that any given prisoner will be that way. No, life in prison is no more humane than a hanging.

It should also be considered what is being gained or accomplished by punishing the guy. Is what you want for him to suffer? That won't be constructive for anyone, except for a temporary thrill of vengence felt by those personally victimized by him, but ultimately lacking much value. Is what you want to set an example to other potential despotic regimes, to deter them from doing the same things? That's been done since at least the dark ages, and it hasn't deterred anyone, just motivates them to not get caught.

I can't speak in any confidence about the role of karma. I know it's there, but I'm in no position to discuss the mechanics of it; I assume it's way too complex and too expansive to be understood by our limited minds. But those who are responsible are probably already in a state of suffering. It's probably not the obvious mental anguish we might hope be in place to correspond with the atrocity of their crimes, but these guys already had the flawed and suffering character that is required to commit the crimes they did. It's pry more like the latent frustration of never attaining real gratification or contentment. The feeling of always wanting and needing more and assuming happiness comes from the exercise of power, always sensing an underlying insecurity at not really knowing who they are.

All I know is that the bush crusade has stirred up a lot of negative energy in the world, and the more we can transform it into positive energy and the more positive energy we create the better the chances are of global peace and harmony

 

How would you know? When have you ever been dead?

 

if someone asserts something they say is true, to hold them accountable to that truth may be a natural reflex, but it won't tell you how true the statement is. for that, you look inside yourself.

 

Thought so. I'm afraid that, since it was you who said prison was as bad as death, the onus is mostly definitely not on me to prove that it isn't, because a) one can't prove a negative, and b) burden of proof, etc.

Anyhow, I'm not going to claim anyone likes it in prison, but I will say is that your high-falluting ideas about how essential freedom and liberty are to a meaningful existence don't seem to take into account how little use most non-prisoners make of their freedom and liberty. You and I might be living our lives to the fullest, but a fair amount of people live day to day, paycheck to paycheck, barely aware of their surroundings, barely deviating from their route to and from work... if anything I'd say prison is as bad as life.

 

Life in prison, thats what i chose. murderers belong in jail, right?
of course, that'd be AFTER he served time on the front lines. of course.

 

I agree with you, self control. people all around are living in a phase of death, sometimes just as worse as someone rotting in prison. An inmate or whoever may not realize he's in a slight state of death, just like a dead person may not realize he's dead. The point is taking away someone's liberty, whether that liberty is being alive or being uncontained. The difference between someone's unwitting hell by going back and forth to work in a big pointless cycle and the hell of an inmate is that no one forced the person of the first category to do anything. when I said look inside yourself, I didn't mean to do so to come up with an answer that I couldn't come up with, i'm just saying that my reasoning is useless to you. even if I was absolutely correct it wouldn't mean much with such an abstract topic unless you concluded it yourself, and from your post it looks as if you already have. it doesn't matter if I havent been dead or haven't been in prison, people don't have to base evrything on personal experience, in fact most of the time people base things only on personal experience, often with distorted conclusions. don't take my words as condescending, and don't think I was trying to defer the burden of proof onto someone else; with a discussion of this type proof is relative.

all I was really trying to get across is that we shouldn't see life and death as two absolutes; and that physically killing someone isn't much different from mentally killing someone.

 

i agree with soaring eagle that the punishment should fit the crime say you had a beautiful daughter and she got raped wouldnt you want the rapist to suffer as much pain as possible? but i think we should send him to the front lines so he can experience first hand all the pain he has caused he will die from his stupid greed for oil and america may be set right again if it is ever possible because from both of his terms served the future for america looks very very bleek

 

It remains interesting for me to see new insights and new thoughts to how everyone feels. Some are very good, very good. It makes me wonder if my original thoughts on the issue may have been the correct thoughts/feelings.
I did not post this thread to bash Bush however. I do hate the guy and yes hate is a good word for it. However, I just don't want another worthless leader who can buy his way into the presidency. I say for just once...maybe no one vote? See what happens! I know, I know, far fetched, but it would be interesting indeed.
I still think we the little people should come together somehow, someway. We need to prevent this shit from happening again. Whether it has happened for years and years or not, it doesn't mean that things can't change. Lastly, I would appreciate it before I get attacked again for this post to at least read what I have said after I posted this thread. Thank you for all your responses. Continue to rant, rave, complain, vent, whatever it takes.

 

Unfortunately, given a list of choices, most people are predisposed to pick one, even if they know full well all of the answers are equally wrong. Seriously, give people the following:

And most people will pick one.

Realistically, even in the best election with the best possible candidates, we'll be voting for the candidate who disagrees with our own personal ideal the least, unless we happen to be standing. It's always the lesser of two evils, purely because, at the ideological, non-pragmatic level, people differ massively.

 

Gee, I don't know. Poor George W. getting shot, or blown apart by a bomb? After sponsoring all those "Armed Forces Career Centers" promising a better life to the underprivileged? After opening torture and imprisonment camps in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and other places we haven't heard of? Poor George W. I don't think I could handle anything happening to such a nice man, and a Republican as well.

 

You know that it's pretty hard to actually be killed in a American war, right? I mean, you guys throw a frickin' huge fit every time one of your soldiers dies, but how many Allied soldiers have died in 5 years in Iraq? If you really are too pussy to just execute him but want him to die, the sensible thing would be to have him live as a civilian on the other side?

 

Americans get killed in war all the time and a lot of the time it's not shown... and honestly, if people were to throw a fit...wouldn't we find some way of PREVENTING war rather than continuing on with it? Decommissioning U.S. weapons as well instead of trying to be an Earth Force. Some fucked up leaders there are out there, and Obama...I don't have much faith in him of what he can do better for the U.S. Some think he's the antichrist-plenty of threads here on the net trying to prove he is. Whether or not he is or isn't....we all need to get a clue and stop getting angry at one another and doing some good for this world before it goes completely to shit.

 

dammit.. i read it wrong.

i read it as "What WOULD happen to the next president who lies.... blah?"
-So i put nothing.

As for what SHOULD happen... i think he should be sent to the front lines... alone.

 

I say the prison one is just fine. But depends on the what they lie about . Say like if they create war again then then their ass to the front. If they steal our money prison and so on ...

 

In trying to defend his actions ,Nixon claimed he really wasnt spreading the war into Cambodia, he was just protecting American sanctuaries on the border. Now , we have this knunkle head who lied from the very beginning- -the reasons to go to war will always be there ,the reasons to lie about why we should get involved will always be there.
The way 9/11- morphed into "lets invade Iraq" was so silly, yet Bush saw a little opening & now its 6 years later
I saw a country divided- -NO good. This time we must stand as one & say >Enough ! Getting involved in a civil war in an Arab country is just insane- -Enough!


Spec4/tg(a lifetime ago)
170thBikinis/755MD
Camp Holloway-Dak-To
1970-71 :hat:


face impeachment/be forced to resign in humiliation/ maybe be tried for crimes against humanity

 

I will probably gather some bad karma for this...but i think he should be sent to the front lines so he can get a taste of the realities of war just like those boys who are there because they happen to believe what they are doing is right

 

"face impeachment/be forced to resign in humiliation/ maybe be tried for crimes against humanity"

I liked that last part-charged for crimes against humanity. However, what would those charges be though? I guess that's why I asked my original question. What indeed should happen?
Regarding to a former reply about it always being there-the lies to go to war and such. It has always been there but does not NEED to always be there. A failure to communicate and sort out problems is childish. So the only way to change it is, right, stand up to it and say ENOUGH! But whose willing to stand up? Can't depend on our government, can't depend on another president. It's you and I friends, and as you can see, their may be a mass vote on here, but where is the mass vote in real life? Where are the bodies who see all this wrongdoing and then just sit back idly and say "let someone else do it!"? "I won't risk my ass for anyone on this planet". So we've come to the point where we can't depend on each other and that is sad.

 

lol yeah me too

 

I don't think any of these choices are really the right thing. And here goes my reasoning for each and every one:

Public/televised hanging:
Really. Come on. I think we get are fair share of violence on T.V.
By killing a man like this, no matter how bad he is. How bad he screwed up, we sink just as low as he has. We can't achieve peace when we kill someone to get a point across. And this isn't fair to his family. His children deserve a father. His wife deserves a husband. Regardless of the evil things he did. Can you honestly say that you haven't screwed up? If you can, I guess you'd better live a little more ;D but if you can't say you haven't messed up a couple of times, congratulations, you're human. We're born to screw up. Some of us just do a better job then others. Like Bush.

Public/televised torturous death:
Again, if we sink to the level of Bush, we become worse then he ever was. Yes, he killed thousands. Tens of thousands. Hundreds of thousands. He tore apart families. He took my dad away for a year. He took others away for far longer then that. But do we need to add another tally to the statistics. Come on. No matter how many we kill for starting the war, we can't bring back those that were affected by it. "We hold in our hands the ability to change history for the better. And the only way we can do it is by changing the future."

Tortured to death:
Wow. I don't think anything needs to be said here. If you think so, read the previous ranting.

Sent to the front lines of war after term:
I think plenty of soldiers have already been sent to the front lines. What good would come of sending another there? Especially if we give him a gun, it's only going to lead to more killing. (Though I'm sure George probably doesn't have good aim ).

Drowning:
I think his stupid pride would keep him afloat and it would take quite an anchor to weigh him down.

Life sentence in prison:
This wouldn't really be fair to his cell mates. And besides, why should we waste food on Bush when there are starving people throughout the world that could make a difference. In a good way. Unlike some people.

Nothing: We can't let him get away with his war crimes. That'd be bad. Very bad.


So here's the plan. I entitle it the Bush plan.

First. We strip Bush of all his belongings. He starts over. All over. No more money. The money goes to feed people throughout the world. It goes to buy them homes. It goes to buy them clothes. It goes towards an education. It goes towards giving them a chance. No more house. No more car. No more suits. No more bodyguards (which would probably come in handy).

Second. We find Bush a nice little shanty in war-torn Iraq. (Note, this is after we put an end to the war). We get him rags to wear. It's important that this is right in the heart of where the fighting used to be. We have to make sure he gets the full picture. We also bring in all his associates that helped start this war.

Third. We put him to work rebuilding the country he tore apart. He builds homes. He builds schools. He builds stores. (Though we have to supervise him, seeing as otherwise it isn't going to get done right).

Fourth. Once, if ever, the country gets back on its feet (and Bush is still around to see it), we throw Bush in Africa. Let him get a head start there for the next generation to finish. We need to fix the world that we've successfully torn apart, and what better 'pioneer' to start the transformation then the fool who played a big role in the destruction.

​

And that's all. Feel free to argue with me.

~Seth