What really pisses me off!

Now that's just an absolutely hilarious idea!
South Park did an episode (I think last season) where the character Butters is sent to one of these camps to "pray the gay away" as his parents mistakenly suspect he's bi-curious. Throughout the episode, kids at the camp keep shooting themselves in the head. At the end when Butters has had enough of being told he's "confused" he proudly states, "If I am bi-curious then that's okay because I'm made in the image of God, and if that's so, then I figure God must be a little bi-curious too."

 

I've seen interviews with victims of the camps who say otherwise.

 

jackbond....it's the child's job to "change" themselves.

 

Maybe they don't need changing at all.
J*
Hate Sucks!

 

You're right whatshappenin, the church thing was a bad idea. In fact, it's just always a bad idea to go to a church for any reason, because you do just end up looking really stupid. I think if Jesus were here with us today, he would tell people to follow HIS teachings instead of the church's teachings. It was the church and it's dogmas that Jesus stood against before he was crucified and I think he would do the same today.
And no, I don't think those camps would even be good for people who just think they are gay or who's gayness is just psychological because all they do at camps like that is fill heads with lies and confusion.
I don't doubt that a lot of nice people go to church. My mom went to church and made me go too when I was a child, but I don't hold it against her, I hold it against the church which in my opinion is the anti-Christ as much as any one or anything can be. Sorry, if that's just how I feel. Jesus told people to love one another and to not judge people, yet I know that to find a place where I will be loved and not judged, the last place on earth I would want to go is to a church.

 

There should be camps to fix these hateful,sick,twisted,ignorant,hypocritical,holy rolling bullsh*t moronic,completely lame idiots.They're the ones who need the fixing,I mean just take a look at what's happening in the world.It's ironic in a way.The ones who are the sickest claim to be the ones who know all the answers and the heathy ones are the ones who get treated as sick the sickest.
***J

 

This might not be a big wave maker or anything, but it makes you feel good. I just went here http://www.exodus-international.org/ (the website of a genuine pray-the-gay-away camp) and left a "prayer request" asking them to pray for themselves and the ones they are hurting. Just don't look too long at the website (severe nausea) I'm serious! It will make you want to hurl. but there is a menu with a category "communications" where you can submit a prayer request. You can get their address there too, if you care to send them a piece of your mind. I plan to. I'm sure they pay people to weed out anything that isn't a request for services. I might just pose till I get a real person to talk to. I donno.

 

More on that, I just checked out the events on that website and Metanoia Ministries----the Ministry of "healing" sexual "brokenness" (check it out, that's the word they use.) will soon be having a lecture at a church here in Seattle. Now I know where to go to protest some toxic religion. The name of the lecture is "Homosexuality: How should the church respond." I'll be there to give them something to respond to.

 

Alright dude...while I do agree with you about those camps being a pretty bad idea, I can tell you that my church would never sponsor such a camp. and when you say "the church" what are you talking about?? the catholic church?? There are MANY MANY different kinds of churches, some are more dogmatic than others. The ONLY kind of church I would ever go to is one where the only message is love and acceptance, and its a place where you can go to get your spirit in line with other peoples once a week, a good way to keep you tuned in to humanity. Im sorry if you've had bad experiences with religion in your life. Religion is probably the single most destructive force we've ever seen on this earth. But that doesn't mean that religion in all forms is a bad thing.
Sorry if you thought I called you stupid, but I actually didn't. You had made it clear that you realized it wasn't the greatest idea to go protest at a church, so that comment did not apply to you. But you however, did call me stupid for attending worship service. So much for acceptance and tolerance on your part...

 

I'm sorry if you feel I called you stupid. That is not quite what I said and not what I meant, I did say that going to church makes you LOOK stupid (which is different from being stupid).
I don't know you so I would not call you stupid, but anyone can look stupid, and going to church just looks stupid to me. I'm sorry if that is offensive, but that's how I feel. I have not seen or heard of a church that's only message is love and acceptance. If I found such a church perhaps I would go there as well, but I suspect that that love and tolerance is of a very superficial type. It's easy to feel sorry for people you "believe are going to hell, and even though your pastor never mentions hell, I'm sure that's part of the whole belief structure that could not be denied (if pressed on the subject).
As long as you carry that black book to church, you are holding on to dogma that, far from being the teaching of Jesus, teaches that there is a God so full of hate that he must have sacrifice for what he sees as "sin" and so sends his son into the world to fill the part. That isn't what Jesus taught. It's what "the church" taught to control the masses. By "the church," I don't mean the catholic church or any other denomination. What I mean by "the church" is the institution of control that has been around since before Jesus was born. Jesus tried to reform "the church" speaking out against it. The Pharisees mentioned by Jesus in unflattering terms in the bible were church officials.
I don't believe Jesus would ever have endorsed the kind of hateful religion that has been created in his name by the church. But all that ranting and raving aside, I am not judging people, I am judging a religion as I feel Jesus would.....although I would trust Jesus to do a better job. So my attack is not something to take personally, I'm just expressing my feelings about a religious institution that is not acceptable to me. Well, my thread title was "What really pisses me off!" so I guess you must have been prepared for a pissed off person, ay?
peace

 

I don't have a problem with churches in general. I have a few friends (not close friends) who attend Catholic, Lutheran, and non-denominational churches. I just think that churches that actually do much good for the world are very few and far between. If someone feels as though they find what they need to improve their life and make themselves a better person by going to church, then I say, "Go for it." However, a couple of my aforementioned friends have lives that don't necessarily demonstrate that this is happening. They're still pretty fucked up individuals, at least emotionally. So in their cases, when it comes to church, my thoughts are, "What the hell's the point?"

One of the reasons that these camps exist is this - popularity. The whole conservative/fundamentalist movement really mimics the motivation of Hollywood. The more controversial they can be, the more heads are turned in their direction, the more notoriety they receive, the more potential members they can dupe into their ridiculous fanaticism. The conservatives today are more or less a spiritual Dateline NBC. When I attended church, and served in its "ministry" (thank God that was long ago!) I belonged to the Southern Baptist denomination. The most popular classes taught, which always had the highest attendance, were those that were the most controversial such as classes about homosexuality, rock music, demonic possession, drug abuse.....These radical folks aren't necessarily as stupid as one may think. At least they know what will get them the highest ratings, just like the television networks. In fact, that's what's so sad about these paranoid freaks. They LOVE to tell you what's WRONG with the world. Most of my family (parents, brother, cousins) are still involved in the Southern Baptist denomination. I HATE holidays as I'm always invited to one of their houses for dinner. In recent years, I've declined their invitations, but when I used to appear just long enough to choke down my meal, all I ever would hear in conversation was what's wrong with the world. I always had to make a quick exit, jump in my vehicle, and crank my evil rock 'n' roll until I felt as though I'd stepped back into reality.
Anyway, my point here is that we need to be careful how much attention we give them. There's nothing wrong at all with speaking out against their idiocy, but we also need to realize that, to a certain degree, this is what they crave and feed upon - attention.
It really sucks that so many churches have their heads up Hollywood's ass. If most churches announced that they were going to set up a soup kitchen to feed the homeless, they'd be hard pressed to get much help from their members, but if they announced that they were going to have a class about the threat of alternative lifestyles, I gaurantee you they'd have a better attendance. So re: these twisted "pray the gay away" camps, I'd caution anyone to not go overboard giving them too much attention. Instead, we should make sure we're always there to listen and offer encouragement if we cross paths with a young person who is in turmoil about their sexuality.

 

Yeah, your right barefooter. I'm getting too worked up about this stuff.
If only my path would cross with those young people, they would have at least one person who won't make things worse for them by telling them that they are "broken" but they make sure those kids are as isolated by shame as I was. It's just very sad. Young people are so vulnerable. So many just aren't old enough to be able to think critically about the line of crap they are fed. I don't feel like giving them attention, but I feel like confronting them with the ugliness of what they are doing. When I went to the website of one of them last night and looked it over I really started feeling physically sick from what I was looking at. I almost hurled.

 

groovecookie,
Like I said...I understand that many people have had bad experiences with religion, and so have I!! But again, it doesn't mean that all churches are hateful, dogmatic,etc...
I see you're from Washington. I grew up in Bremerton. I was raised in the United Methodist Church. Were there conflicting views within our congregation on many issues, including homosexuality??...of course. But the general attitude was open hearts open minds open doors. I sat next to a man in a dress most sundays (no joke!) and we worshiped together.
I can't help but recall a youth summit I attended on the University of Puget Sound campus. All these methodist kids from all over the state came, and somehow one of the guest speakers had a hateful message and said something about homosexuality (he was not a methodist by the way) We bood him off stage, all of us.
You say that you suspect it would be "superficial acceptance," but you see...There are people at my current church, that likely only get to hear the message about acceptance and love in that hour long service on sunday. My current pastor is very liberal, and non dogmatic...How is this a bad thing?? without this service, they wouldn't even think twice about how they judge other people. (we teach that with the same force that you judge, so shall you be judged..we teach the NEW TESTAMENT, and furthermore we do not think the bible is something to be taken literally, and in all cases, completely seriously...)

And yes sir, I know you have problems with the bible, and frankly so do I. The old testament is clearly, old...very old. Many of the things it says have to do with the culture of that time. They old testament says not to eat herring or shellfish..Do we now condemn those who do?? no.
as far as the new testament is concerned, many writings were ommitted because they did not line up with the way the catholic church wanted things to be (and yes, obviously they were using religion for control and power) and of course, the gospel wasn't written until many many years after Jesus' death. There are many other things to consider...The bible has undergone various translations that do not necessarily convey the appropriate message. Arameic (jesus' language) was a VERY metaphoric language in itself...He wanted to use language that would get your spirit and imagination involved, because words alone could never relay his intended message.
Heres the catch, MANY fundamentalist christians, in fact the majority of
"Christians" in this country do not want to dig deep into their spirituality, into Jesus' real message, and especially not into truth.This would requre a change of lifestyle on their part. They like to keep things superficial, and use the name of God to justify all the horrible ungodly things they do. But not all christians are like this!!..Some christians are CHRISTians because they believe in a higher spiritual force, a meaning in life, and the teachings of Jesus CHRIST. Many I know do not even believe Jesus to be the son of God, but rather a highly enlightened and in touch individual whos love and compassion have survived millenia...
you may not care about all this, but im just trying to get you to see that although you may have had extremely painful experiences in life, and based much of your belief system around those experiences (in this regard) well, things may not be exactly like you think they are...and if I "look stupid" going to church on sunday to someone that doesn't understand my spiritual and social reasons for doing so, well so be it. Im sure one thing you've learned in your life so far is that other people's negative opinions of you mostly have nothing to do with you at all, but just their own distorted beliefs...

An interesting fact about the bible itself...The bible says very little about homosexuality..so why has it become a major selling point?? because people like to be hateful and also feel like they are being righteous in the process.. The bible actually says much more about divorce, gluttony, GREED and NOT JUDGING OTHERS than it does about homosexuality...SO, EVEN IF the bible is meant to be taken literally. EVEN IF it is meant to be taken out of the context of its time...These people are still hypocrites even by their own standards, and they too will "burn in hell"...
And let me elaborate on hell...Personally, I believe hell and heaven are both places on earth. Hell is anger, deciet, depression, anxiety, self loathing, self pity, emptiness, hate...Heaven is connectedness, unconditional love, and happiness (true happiness which does not come from material gain)...THIS is how the bible is meant to be interpreted. THIS is how it can be of use to you in a dark time...I don't agree with everything written in the bible, and no one will ever convince me that GOD authored the bible either..It was created by men with flaws and bias. But that doesn't mean it contains no wisdom. So anyway, In my eyes, no one is burning in hell, and no one is living lavishly in heaven...Rather, our lives on this earth have meaning and our actions here will echo in eternity. From dust we came, and dust we will become...the collective spirit which we are all a part of will never die. Our egos and personalities will not survive us except in the memories of others. But the force behind it all, which we are inseperably a part of will always exist. (Im not the only christian who holds these beliefs, so just remember that)

THANKS FOR READING!! phew that was a rant, and yes i am getting defensive here, but only because I want to spread more understanding and acceptance.

 

Thank you What's happenin23. You are obviously not stupid, and I now remember why I once promised myself I would stop using that word. I see a parallel here with another post I posted, or I guess it was a reply I posted about how I don't completely buy the evil television thing. I made the argument that it isn't just the TV to consider, it's the person watching it. I like to watch a little TV to make me laugh a little but I know that it is also the asshole of our culture and a lot of crap is going to come out of it.
The parallel is that, like television, it isn't just the church to consider, it's the people who attend. As for your looking stupid, I guess you only look stupid to someone like me who stupidly lumps all church goers into one pile and ridicules them. I'll try to stop doing that. I can clearly see that you are one of the few who really follow Christ....probably better than I do. So please let me apologize all over myself for saying you look stupid for going to Church. It was a case of me being so angry at certain people for their lack of acceptance that I became judgmental just like the people I'm angry at.
I don't know just how much overhauling of the Christian religion it would take for me to start going to a Christian church. I think the churches would have to not only become nondenominational but begin to include other religions and philosophies. I consider myself more of a lousy Taoist than anything else, but I feel that attachment to any one doctrine is a negative thing because it limits the scope of your spirituality.
By the way, you also gave me an interesting idea. Metanoia Ministries (which teaches "healing" for "sexual brokenness" (homosexuality) and is part of Exodus International (a pray-the-gay-away camp) will be giving a lecture at a church in Seattle titled "Homosexuality: How should the church respond."
The bulletin I read said "Open to all." Think I should go in drag? Or would that just make me look really stupid? Or really sexy? I guess I don't care which, as long as I can make some religious homophobes uncomfortable.

 

You don't need to be so apologetic, and believe me I was not upset with you...I was upset with the hateful fundamentalist christians who give a bad name to the whole of christianity. They dominate the religious airwaves and pollute peoples minds.
Please do go in drag if you feel to, or at least attend in protest...I guess, if you do go, try to hear their points and understand their perspective. Its obviously not correct, but if you can see where people are coming from you can get a better idea of how to point them in the right direction. But there is no shame in protesting that kind of thing, as long as you do it without being hateful yourself (that would not doubt only fan the flames and be divisive)

I agree with you that limiting yourself to one narrow spiritual view could rob you from the wholeness we long to achieve...I also think that apart from the details, many of the religions all over the world express the same general sentiment, and we all know what that is. Its that one four letter word...I believe that God has no choses people. I believe that the great spiritual force that has been called God, the tao, the way, allah, etc...has revealed itself to people all over the world, in various ways that they would be most receptive to. I don't believe you need to be involved in any religion to know God. I don't even think you need to be consciously aware of the fact that you know God, to know God.

If you're ever thinking of a church to go to, I would highly reccomend a methodist or maybe presbyterian church. Of course, I think whats most important is the specific pastor and congregation. I'd stay away from the mega churches, LDS, jehovahs witness, or anything with the word science in it...but at the end of the day thats just my opinion and your spiritual journey is your own...good luck with it.

 

Well, I don't think I'll go in drag, caus I don't have a thing to wear (I don't do drag) though I think I would look ravishing in somethink pink and silky. As for trying to see things from their perspective, I'll just have to see if I can get my head that far up my ass.lol

 

haha i know what you mean but im just saying if you actually hope to have an effect on some of the people who feel this way, attacking them won't to the job...leave the attacking and hatefullness to them, I think they do it better than you anyway. Im pretty sure that some of the people in attendance will actually be somewhat receptive to new ideas even if they don't show it. Even most of them have to know what bs they shovel out.

 

I'm not going to do any attacking. It isn't my style. As much as I might rant to understanding folk like there are here in hippie land, my only goal in going to this church lecture will be to go and try to find an opportunity to ask questions that should be asked. I'm guessing the gay community in Seattle has already planned some kind of protest, so I might just join that. I donno .

 

I hate to say it again but I wonder how high the suicide rate is.Kids who end up going to these camps,they get totally brainwashed.What happens,if lol.What happens to these kids when they "Cannot pray the gay away".How many end up blowing thier brains out or something?I know that may sound real extreme,but I'd bet it happens and it happens often.I don't live in Seattle but I'd deffinetely protest if I did.Someone said not to hate these people.That's a real difficult task!
Jo E