What is your experience with Christianity?

I've been mostly among and around Christians for most of my life. For example, I didn't grow up in Saudi Arabia, nor in Pakistan, where it would be dangerous, if not lethal, to practice the faith and share it with others.

As religions go, Christianity sticks to the same basics that essentially all of the world's major religions do: peace, love, mercy, and justice. It would be hard to argue against these 4 pillars, whether in Christianity or in any other religion.

Some of the useful insights about Christianity that I've picked up along the way are these 3:

1. "My lifetime of contemplation, prayer, and study have led me to two essential truths: first, there is a God; and second, it's not me." (G.K. Chesterton)

2. Jesus doesn't offer us a comfortable life, nor one of health and prosperity in this life. He offers us 2 things: a meaningful life, and eternal life. If you get a better bona fide offer, you ought to take it.

3. Doubt is not incompatible with faith. On the contrary, doubt is a necessary component of faith. The opposite of faith isn't doubt; the opposite of faith is certainty.

With 2.2 billion Christians on Earth, Christianity is the largest religion (Islam is a close second at just under 2 billion who identify as such). From very modest beginnings, and against initially overwhelming odds, Christianity has flourished. On the other hand, it's also the most widely persecuted religion today.

 

The major persecutors of Christians are various Muslim countries, like Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya, Pakistan, Iran, Pakistan and Nigeria (Boko Haran). Also, North Korea.

 

What is a key threat for Christians in Pakistan? That they could be jailed for blasphemy. Otherwise they mainly face discrimination. The 2.1 Million Christians in Saudi Arabia experience discrimination. But I wouldn't say that their beliefs are especially dangerous or lethal. Undoubtedly the most dangerous place to be a Christian right now is the region that has some of the oldest churches in the world... er, correction, had some of the oldest churches in the world. One of them 'was' the third oldest church in the world. I'm talking about Gaza. It is dangerous to be a Muslim there too. In fact, its dangerous to be a living thing, or a building there.

I was impressed that Palestinian Christians gave shelter to everyone, including Muslims, in these very ancient churches. At least as long as they were standing.


I know people like to say that Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world. I don't see it. Anti-Semitism is growing world-wide. And I say this as someone that sees a difference between purely anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism, and who argues that here in the US, the State Department does explicitly say that we can criticize Israel just as we can criticize any other nation for its actions without being anti-Semitic. People forget that there are communities in the Middle East where Christian, Muslim and Jewish people live peacefully together, and the community does things together where they all come together.

But there is considerable Anti-Muslim sentiment across Europe and many other parts of the world, including the US. Trump tried to ban Muslims from many countries entering this country (the only exceptions being nations where he had a significant business presence). And not only does he plan to do that again, if he wins the election, but he also is talking about adding a religious test to visa applications---in other words, issuing visas only to Christians.

I wear a kheffiya head scarf as a scarf for the people of Palestine and for the many Palestinian Muslims who are afraid to wear the kheffiya. People have been killed here in America, and elsewhere, for wearing one. But this is not the first time I have done this. Multiple times in the past, as early as 17 years ago, I have worn them for Muslims in Europe who were afraid to, and were discriminated against for, wearing headscarfs.

But the people around the world who experience the most discrimination and persecution, and the one's you hear the least about, are the world's indigenous people. I used to get an e-mail each week which documented the attacks, persecution, etc. of indigenous people around the world, and it was very eye-opening to say the least. There were many attacks from all over, India, Africa, China, the Pacific and even here in the US things were covered. These people have very little of a public voice. This also represents a persecution of their belief systems, because it is a part of their identity. These people have very little in the way of rights, and if farmers or businessmen or miners attack and kill them, the police and military is almost always on the side of the murderer. Seriously, this is the same thing that has been going on in Israel for the past several years where settlers have been killing Palestinians, burning their fields and homes and so forth. (I have been saying for a good year or more prior to 10/7 that something was going to happen. I was not surprised at all by 10/7.)

Here in the US we have people in various states trying to undermine or repeal the Native American Child Welfare Act. And they make no secret about why they are doing this----they want to go back to putting Native American children into "good Christian homes." I have a close friend who is the daughter of a Medicine Man. in the 1960's she was removed from her family and put into a Christian home. This is only because her father was a medicine man. This Christian family, which was her foster family until she was a teenager and able to leave, was incredibly cruel to her, and tried to hide her ethnicity from her. She had her mouth duct taped for a whole day on more than one occasion because she spoke Lakota, which she understood better than English. Here in America we have an organization that serves a very serious and unresolved problem here---Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women (MMIW). I don't think that is an issue Christians have had to deal with.

It was illegal for Natives to even practice their own spiritual beliefs until 1978, when you had the Native American Freedom of Religion Act. Imagine that, in a land where freedom of religion is guaranteed by the constitution, and where hippies could get together and do a sweat lodge or a sundance, if an indian did that, he/she faced going to prison, and being that a reservation is government land (literally a POW camp), any criminal charges are federal crimes.

Once this law was passed, the Lakota in South Dakota decided to put on a Sun Dance, but the local catholic priests showed up and turned it into a mass. When the natives protested, then the priests agreed to let the first three days of the ceremony be traditional, but the 4th day of this 4 day ceremony would be a mass. Fortunately for the Natives, after a few years of this, they were able to stop the priests from attending.

 

I do agree with you that the Bible is not to be taken literally. Seriously, when I changed myself into a snake to meet Eve, it was for copulatory purposes, not to consume some stupid fruit!

But never mind that. I've said too much. Forget that.

We've discussed this quite a bit, and you already know, I'm sure, that our minds won't meet on this topic.

What could constitute as proof, and what could it be proof of? This is a very subjective question and the proof itself is guaranteed to be experienced subjectively. For me it was sufficient just to have proof that there was a nonphysical reality to this universe that would somehow represent intention within our physical world. That was enough to infer the existence of a god or absolute of some form or another. It had to be something that I could not rationalize or explain away, and it had to somehow stand up to any criticism or denial I could put to it. It was something I needed to know, so it was not important that it would be something that someone else could independently verify. That would certainly add to its validity, but I wasn't trying to prove to the world or to someone else. I needed proof for myself.

When it happened, I was alone on a hill. If it was important to me that I be able to verify it for others, then I could have brought someone with me. But then, I didn't know it was going to happen at that moment anyway. To be honest, I had no idea if I ever would have proof or even how I would get proof. And as I have told you before, there were many things that happened prior to that which other people would have taken as proof, but I did not, because I could always write it off as a very strange coincidence. Each one was stranger and more unusual, but still I didn't accept them as a proof. Obviously it was something I needed bad enough and the universe responded.

The difference between you and me is that I have always taken ontological or philosophical things to their end-conclusion Apparently you can find meaning in an overly materialistic world that somehow has a God in it. I cannot. Either we live in a world where there is a nonphysical reality, and life has, according to Leibniz' Principle of Sufficient Cause, meaning, OR we live in a purely material world where, according to this same Principle, life is absurd. I can't leave it hanging as an in between where the supernatural is all fake but God isn't. As I have pointed out, Hegel tried to argue for a very scientific and materialist world that somehow had a god in it as a physical abstract being, and it led to nowhere but a purely materialist conclusion, which is the dominant philosophy today.

In fact, as I've explained before, I had given up on there ever being proof and had become a very agnostic materialist. It took a very strange and supernatural experience in the Philippines to put me back on that path of searching for proof. Prior to that I too would have said, I need empirical verifiable proof that would stand up to modern scientific reason. As I have explained, that event involved various things that happened over a period of a week or so and culminated in the healing of my stepdaughter by an indigenous peasant.

The problem of faith for me when I was younger is that it doesn't resolve the dilemna that Christianity creates: That we are somehow supposed to accept this belief in a God that we cannot see, and his son, that exists within some kind of supernatural realm that we cannot experience, and that we absolutely cannot prove or know by any of our senses as we exist in a physical plane for some 30 - 100 years, which is not even a drop in a bucket to eternity. But if we don't accept, believe, and follow this god and son, despite there being no proof whatsoever, that we will spend all that eternity in a burning hell. But don't worry--he loves us. Doesn't this seem like an issue that is so important that we should not leave it up to chance that our faith is strong enough?

SO, we aren't supposed to question, we are supposed to believe. What kind of a trick is that?

Some of us may find it takes us to an even more pressing or critical question--what happens to a loved one when they die?

I could personally write it off as a truly loving god wouldn't test us in this way. but it doesn't resolve the problem of whether god even exists. When I decided that there can be no such proof, then the question became, why even bother believing in something that may only be an illusion at best? And I became agnostic. But the experiences in the Philippines showed me that strange unexplainable things do happen. It put me back on that search. I knew for me, the proof would have to stand up against my own doubts and I had to be able to somehow verify to my own liking and to a very serious criteria, and attempts to deny what had happened, and that even years later I could not rationalize it away. And the proof I eventually got, did just that. And try as I did to disprove it, I could not. But that means nothing really to anyone other than me. It was a proof for me.

SO, we have people like my sister, who I suspect is overly religious because her ego does not want to face the reality of her subconscious doubts and denials. I think a lot of religious people face that. My native friends who grew up in the traditional ways, experiencing a supernatural reality that you apparently don't believe in, think that it is silly to question whether there is a god or not. (They see it as a white man's dilemma.) They grew up going to yuwipi ceremonies and seeing supernatural phenomena. So for them there is no question or doubt. My argument to religious and spiritual people is that if there is a nonphysical divine side to this universe, and if it has any kind of connection or interaction with humans, then there does have to be some kind of proof, if only we open ourselves up to it.

 

Being in danger cuz it's a war zone is different from being in danger cuz people won't tolerate your religion. And yes, lots of Jews and Muslims have been persecuted too. After 911 the poor Sikhs were attacked for wearing beards and turbans. Dumb 'Mericans thought they were Muslims.

Fortunately, I missed the boarding school experience. There are 38 tribes in Oklahoma, but only three are on reservations: us Chickasaws, and the Choctaws and Cherokees who are closely related to us culturally. We were dumped here in Oklahoma via the Trail of Tears after passage of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, cuz white settlers wanted our land. I don't blame "Christians", since we were already mostly Christians and Christian missionaries like Rev. Evan Jones tried in vain to oppose the effort. Our language, Chikashshanompa, was suppressed in schools, but is undergoing a revival since launching of the Chickasaw Language Revitalization Program in 2007

After Removal, we were able to get our act together thru successful farming and ranching. Today. the Chickasw Nation operates over 100 diversified businesses in a variety of fields, and boasts such celebrities as astronaut John Herrington; William Paul, former managing partner in Oklahoma's largest Law firm, Crowe and Dunlevy; Vinnie May Hume co-authoring the first published Chickasaw dictionary; and, of course, Reps. Tom Cole, currently one of six Native Americans in the U.S. Congress. Persecuted, maybe, but standing tall and strong!

 

But that doesn't justify it. In fact, I think it adds to the argument that we should protect indigenous people from missionaries.

Are you suggesting that Christianity has something for everyone and therefore it can replace native beliefs and make the people happy and give meaning to their lives? I would flat out disagree. And I have many reasons for disagreeing.

Let's say you need a healing of a serious illness. Or you need a miracle. I always heard of stories of miracles as a Christian, but I didn't see much of that. But a yuwipi ceremony is a different story. Spirits are called in, they make their presence known, and miracles are performed. I truly doubt Christianity has a ceremony with such a high succes rate. I hear stories, but... Tele-evangelicals who heal people right on TV? I don't know...

But even then, just because a religion has many different ways of worshipping, and many different styles, this does not make it for everyone. I went to a very progressive church, and obviously if I was going to go to church it would seem that I would be happy with a progressive church. I can certainly sit in a progressive church and get something out of it better than in a conservative one. I would enjoy the intellectual stimulation I may get, but it doesn't provide any of the meaning I get from a sweat lodge or participating in ceremony. I never felt like I fit in at church. Socially, I could have a good time and have friends and I fit in, but the church did not jive philosophically with me. And this is very important to me.

One problem is the philosophy of the religion. I didn't go to a fire and brimstone church, and such churches have made me especially uncomfortable. But hell and fire and brimstone is a fundamental part of the religion, because it has its place within the scriptures, so I could not philosophically separate one church from the other in this regard. As a teenager, I explored all kinds of religions, and did not find one where I felt like I belonged. Over the years I came to a conclusion about what makes sense to me philosophically, and what I think a belief system of the divine required for me to accept it. The contradictions that exist in one religion after another could not meet my needs. For years I thought there would be no such religion. Surprisingly, indigenous spirituality fit these requirements just fine. So no matter what differences you find from one sect to another, I could never really call myself Christian. Even as I find the value in the teachings of Jesus.

And why should we expect the church to speak to Natives and give meaning to their lives? It is filled with stories of a people who lived on the other side of the world in some distant desert and supposedly God talked to them and told them that they are his chosen people. How is that going to be important to Lakota Natives, for example, that grew up with tales of the White Buffalo Calf Woman that came down and visited their ancestors, and that the sacred pipe she gave to the people is still being held and prayed with today. And all the pipes are connected to it. And that their heritage is the buffalo and that their ancestors were related to them, and then, during a great flood, a girl was saved by an eagle, making them also the descendants of the eagle. And that the blood of all of their ancestors who were killed in the flood, is what makes the pipestone, which the sacred pipe is made from, red. How can a story about Moses, or Joseph and Mary, or any other biblical figure make up for that?

 

Yes. My point that you are speaking to was not that they were being persecuted right now, rather that it is the most dangerous place right now to be a Christian (or a Muslim, or even just a living thing or a building).

My overall point is of course that, Christians are not the most persecuted of all religious groups. Every religious group experiences persecution and Christians are certainly not the ones to experience the most. The holocaust for example, targeted Jews not Christians.

Oh, well there was the inquisitions. Let me see, who was the evil perpetrator of the inquisitions again...?


...Of course! The church! (It doesn't count.)

 

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No. I'm suggesting that "Christianity" is a label that is given to a wide diversity of belief systems, some of which are toxic, others beneficial. Proceed with caution!

To me, the core of Christianity is Jesus' teachings of peace, love, and social justice. Period. I find value in all religions, but Christianity is the one that inspires me the most in those respects. If you find others more congenial in achieving meaning and morality, go for it! I take fellowship with a group of atheists who seem to be decent truth seekers. Justin Martyr thought that people who live according to reason (logos) are really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists. The Pope seems to agree! Justin also said: "Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ."

As I've said, I think hell is very real as a potential, although the fire and brimstone is figurative. Hell is a bad attitude: an abandonment and denial of God, Who is, among other things, the summation of human idealism. (Seems to me it's getting warmer and warmer already!)

The teachings of Jesus=Christianity, as far as I'm concerned. The rest is filler, as far as I'm concerned!

Many Native Americans found Christianity hard to swallow for that reason. On the other hand, African slaves in the South took more readily to it, especially the stories about Moses and Pharaoh and "Let my people go!" For us Chickasaws, who began our "Christianization" in the 1820's, the attraction wasn't so much doctrine but the educational opportunities the missionaries provided.https://chickasawpress.com/getattachment/201250e0-7e14-4620-9696-f93956a41b45 The tribal leadership saw advantages to the missionary schools, where our kids learned western civilization (yes, including those stories of a people in a distant land) and new farming methods. This served us well during the Removal, since we were able to anticipate it and plan ahead with favorable sales of our lands in Mississippi. We suffered lass than other tribes on the Trail of Tears because we were able to plan the most favorable departure times seasonally. But The inability of the missionaries to prevent removal led to some disillusion and drift to more "syncretic" religious forms incorporating previous traditional beliefs. One of our biggest problems when we got to Oklahoma was coping with the nomadic tribes who were used to roaming freely and didn't understand why we were settling on land where they were used to hunting.Removal | Chickasaw Nation

In sum, I understand your problems with the dominant forms of organized Christianity in this country. I tend to view them thru the lens of Dawkins' evolutionary meme theory, leading to mutant forms that Jesus probably wouldn't recognize. Paul's contributions--Jesus as Paschal lamb, justification thru faith instead of works of the law, and elimination of the circumcision and dietary laws for Gentiles, were indispensable for the spread of the religion, but present problems for me in clouding the purity of the original message. The development of church institutional hierarchy justified by "Apostolic succession" was crucial in overcoming the struggle with the Gnostics, but left an institutional bureaucracy with its own interests and agendas. And the eventual embrace of the religion by the Roman Emperor was a mixed blessing--putting the might of Rome behind the movement at the expense of transforming the Prince of Peace into General Jesus. The Protestant Reformation gave us the priesthood of all believers, but also an attachment to scripture that can border on biblidolatry. I try to look past these developments, and focus on "What would Jesus do?"

 

It's a total non-factor in my life. The mythology is whackier than any fairy tale or comic book, and the morals aren't necessary. I know you don't rob, kill, or rape. I treat others with kindness. Basic stuff. I don't need a book to know right from wrong. Plus, all the horrible things it's been used to justify has corrupted it beyond recognition.

 

And as such, it's veridical to you, but unfortunately to no one else, unless they believe you. Many Christians, including me, have had conversion experiences, which are quite varied. Theologian Marcus Borg had his on an airplane, leaving skeptics to wonder whether or not it was before cocktails were served. Former NIH Director, geneticist Dr. Francis Collins, had his while contemplating a waterfall frozen in three parts suggesting to him the Trinity--leaving cynics to speculate as to whether he would have become a Pastafarian if the strands had been more numerous. In my case, a passage from Genesis9 1:27) that popped into my mind triggered a cascade of thoughts leading me to Jesus. It was a powerful and unusual experience to say the least, and my analytical side reserves the interpretation that it was somehow dredged up from my unconscious. But the other side decided to go with it, because I liked the results. it fit together so neatly, gave me a new and exciting worldview, and made going to WalMart a religious experience. In your case, it seems to have given you your meaning, and if it's positive and not harmful to others, as it seems to be, I can understand why you'd go with it. "Proof" is in the eye of the juror.

 

In Pakistan, the criminal prosecution of Christians for blasphemy is vastly disproportionate, and punishment can and often does include the death by execution of said Christians. In addition, bombings, arson, and murder during lootings by Muslim extremists targeting Christians in their houses and in their houses of worship are not only lethal, but they are rarely prosecuted. Extremists act with a wink and a nod from local officials. Forced conversion to Islam of Christian children is common in Pakistan. When resisted, it often leads to beatings and rape, which can and do lead to death. Characterizing any of this "discrimination," while denying the lethal consequences, demonstrates an intent to deceive.

In Saudi Arabia, it is a crime to practice any religion other than Islam. "Discrimination" is an understatement, when its part of the criminal code and punished as such. Converts to Christianity, if they are men or boys, are usually forced out of the home. Girls and women who convert to Christianity are held against their will and physically abused in the home. All converts risk being killed by relatives with impunity "to restore the family honor." Expatriate Christians who openly practice or preach the faith are subject to imprisonment and deportation. It is worst for Christian expatriates from Asia (outside Saudi Arabia) and from Africa, who not only face imprisonment and deportation, but also physical violence in public simply for being practicing Christians of low economic status within the Kingdom.

Indeed, within the borders of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Christians risk life and limb simply for being Christians each and every day.

Gaza is a dangerous place for everyone there, but Christians make up less than 1% of Gaza's population. By far, the most dangerous place right now for Christians facing persecution, including death, is northern Nigeria, not Gaza.

 

When I responded to your post, I tried to see what I could find on Christian martyrdom in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I did that because I have heard this comment for years, that Christians are the most persecuted people in the world, or that it is prophesied that Christians will be the most persecuted in the world.

To that I say 'off with the lot of them!'

And by that I mean, people who persecute and discriminate. (You thought I meant Christians didn't you)

Ok, I'm done joking.

Seriously, I tried to find a plethora of cases in these countries, and I could not. What I did find is that blasphemy is punishable by death in Pakistan but this punishment has never been done, however people have been killed by mobs before any such punishment could be handed out, but even then, it is generally imprisonment. The people who are charged with this crime are the mentally ill and, not only christians, but those of other minorities too. When trying to search out how many people have been killed for blasphemy all I could come up with is the number 53. I don't know if that is the number killed for blasphemy since the crime became punishable, or if that was a specific period of time, or even when. But 53 is not a very big number. Do you know how many Muslims and Hindus were killed for being Hindu or Muslim, when Pakistan was made into its own nation? And that took place on both the Pakistan and Indian side of the border.

Now I understand that my research is very incomplete, and I didn't even put a lot of time into it. But I did go to credible sources. But it seems to me that if there was a significant number of murders that it would have been a bigger point somewhere in the places I looked.

I also looked at a Christian site, The Voice of the Martyrs. In the section on Pakistan they did not describe murders or death that I remember. There is talk of forced labor and being treated like second class citizens and other forms of persecution. But one thing that stands out for me, is that the site makes it very clear that they are persecuted for evangelizing and proselytizing. They stress, for example, that handing out bibles and street evangelizing are legal under Pakistani law, yet still they are treated bad for it.

It seems to me there is a simple solution to some of this. I know it is very hard for most Christians to understand, but--just stop pushing it. I have told aid workers from Christian groups in places like the Philippines (after the Mt. Pinatubo explosion) and Thailand (trying to help people in extreme poverty) as well as missionaries in Japan, that I think it would be so much better to lead by example and give help without strings attached, or without pushing Christianity as they do.

You have probably heard the phrase that goes something like, Religion is like your penis. You should keep it in your pants and not wave it around. I had some other things I would add to that, like, you shouldn't pull it out without consent, and some other funny things. I am happy to talk about my own beliefs when people ask about them. But I always stress that everyone needs to find their own path and this is what is meaningful to me. I will never question another persons individual beliefs unless they try to push it on me. In fact, I love it when missionaries come to my door. I will invite them in and enjoy having a discussion with them. We will talk for hours. But that is why missionaries generally avoid my home. Until they forget or are replaced by others. I'm polite and friendly, I offer them coffee and food, and a good dose of existential dilemna over their beliefs. I remember when a pair of Mormon missionaries came to my home. I saw them bicycling in my neighborhood hours later, probably after visiting another few homes. The older one appeared unfazed, ready to go back where he came from. The younger one however was very deep in thought and was barely keeping up. He was looking down and had a troubled look on his face, just as he did when he left my house. I haven't had a Mormon stop by since and that was 15 years ago.

I understand, they think they are saving souls, and giving eternal life. That they need to tell the world that this is the only way, but that's their belief, and it is a threat to other people's beliefs to force that opinion. And when you start from the assumption that Christianity is the one and only true religion and everyone who does not believe it will be condemned to hell, then you fail to see the damage that proselytizing does. Any costs become necessary costs and irrelevant to the benefit you believe it provides. This is the same you-have-to-break-a-few-eggs-to-make-an-omelette danger that Utopian thinking brings.

In recent years missionaries started leaving pamphlets everywhere in either Pine Ridge or the Rosebud reservation. I forget where this happened, but it was a South Dakota reservation. The pamphlets offensively talked about the Medicine Men doing the work of the devil, and more or less stated that the Tunkashila (meaning grandfather, which is one aspect of wakan tanka) that they pray to is Satan. The tribal council responded by making it illegal for missionaries to hand out pamphlets on the reservation. If it were up to me, I would make it illegal for missionaries to proselytize to indigenous people around the world. They could provide assistance to the tribes and bring doctors in, whatever, but I would make proselytizing strictly illegal. And if tribal people are curious about their ways and want to go to church, I would have them first attend a class by the State or an independent agency to educate them on world religions and stress to them that these ways are exclusive, and that the tribe's traditional ways are believed to be by the Christians. Much like the Philippines would do before issuing travel documents to go marry and live abroad for Filipinas, teaching them about spousal abuse and violence, and making them aware of the laws and help available to them in the country they are heading to. It also taught them about working and being independent in those countries. I would do this so that if a tribal person decides to convert they are educated in doing so. In other words, so they are not tricked into becoming a Christian.

If you live in a country that is 98% Muslim, and you start threatening that belief system, of course there will be a push back. If most Americans many of whom are Christian or open to the ideas of Christianity are irritated by Jehovah Witnesses showing up at their door, imagine how a Muslim in Pakistan would feel to hear that he picked the wrong Abrahmic religion and will burn in hell unless he accepts Jesus now. How would you feel if a Muslim missionary came to your door? (Actually I would enjoy it, and not in the same way that I enjoy challenging christian missionaries--unless they tried to push it. I say this because I have had conversations with Muslims who want to share their faith in what would be a format similar to missionaries. But the focus of the conversation is entirely on, 'this is what we believe or this is what our faith says, or what the Quran teaches.' The focus is not on you as it is when christian missionaries talk to you. There are no existential threats, or talk about how you are a sinner or how you have to repent. Its all informational, we believe people should love one another, we believe Mohammad was the final messenger from God, we believe that we will kill all the nonbelievers by the sword in the last days, you know, good informational stuff. (I'M JOKING ABOUT THE SWORD STUFF! LMAO!)

Pakistan is a nation where Hindus and Sikhs will be killed just for being Hindu or Sikh, (and the Sikh faith is practically Muslim). In fact, you could be killed for being the wrong kind of Muslim---the majority of Pakistan is Sunni, I believe, I forget which one it is. So it makes a lot of sense that Christians in Pakistan would do well just to go to church, pray at home, and mind their own business. Granted, in a country where it is risky to be something other than what 98% of the people are, this is not a solve-all answer, but it would certainly make a difference. If they don't commit acts of blasphemy they won't be charged for that. And if girls in Saudi Arabia are being killed to protect the family honor after they convert to Christianity, then its probably best not to push it on them while they are under the control of their family.

I looked at Saudi Arabia too, and I could not find much news on Christians being killed. Or that being a big issue in discussions of Christian persecution.

Christians make up less than 2% of Pakistan's population.

What bothered me about your post and why I responded is two things. 1.) We Americans like to make general statements about other countries that don't add up. I have spent a good portion of my life living and travelling abroad. And I can't tell you how many American assumptions to life in a foreign country just don't add up. I have not been to Pakistan, and I've stayed out of the Middle East. But I do love Middle Eastern culture and food, and I've had a lot of Middle Eastern friends over the years. Not to mention some former Peace Corp friends who worked in the Middle East. This includes friends from villages where, as I think I mentioned, Christians, Jews and Muslims live together in harmony, and respect and spend a lot of time coming together as a community despite their religious differences. They often make a point about how wrong American attitudes are about the Middle East, as a generalization, based on where they live.

2.) The Christian assertion that Christians are the most persecuted people in the world. For example, your post, implied that Christians are 'targeted' in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. But what about Hindus Jews, Sikhs and Bahai? What about the Muslims of the other sect? They all suffer the same persecution if not worse. In fact, Pakistan was colonial India's answer to the Muslim problem. And I forget the details, but recently in India there was a problem in one of its states where Muslims were attacked and killed, and it was a fight over a very old mosque that had been destroyed and with a nationalist pro-Hindu government gaining power it is unlikely that it will ever be built. Pakistan and Nigeria are two countries where the murders of indigenous people are very common, are rarely reported and the military almost always supports the side of the murderers. There is a huge amount of persecution, violence, and murder over religion all around the world.

I will repeat that I am not denying that Christians are being persecuted. And I'm sure Christians are killed like any other minority. I also admit that my own limited research on this subject cannot be conclusive. But my main point is that a handful of countries where Christians are a very small minority cannot count as saying that Christians are the most persecuted people in the world. Overall, around the world, much more of it is directed at non-christians. What is worse is that I believe this is a dangerous mentality. When a nationalist political movement uses it, it can be used to fuel persecution and violence. We see this happening in Israel today. The excuse of the holocaust literally makes Zionists oblivious to their own acts of genocide.

We live in a Post-Colonial world. But the war of Colonial dominance is still being waged. The current problems in Israel are a perfect example of Colonialism still rubbing its dirty mark of evil into this world. Indigenous tribes and communities are the final frontier in this war. We could compare it to the Japanese soldier that continued killing people in the Philippines almost till the 1970's because he thought the war was still going on. The war of colonialism continues. In most places of the world, it is the missionaries who are the foot soldiers in this battle.

 

I was raised in an intellectually open atheist household where there was no religious belief and practice, but also freedom and encouragement to learn, experiment, and come to own conclusions.

Also in an otherwise Catholic country, more low key in communist and more open in times after that, with the vast majority of the population (>80%) identifying as Catholic.

Experience with them is a mixed bag - it is a very big organization that comes in many flavors. There are neo-fascist nationalist right-wingers, and there are socialist leftists. There are closed and controlling groups like Opus Dei or the Neocatechumens, there are also more low-key and not very controlling local or bigger prayer groups, fraternities, etc. There are extremely fanatical priests in the public sphere, there are very balanced ones too. In some periods, with some local (arch)Bishops and some Popes and curia, some parts of the Church life get more prominence, with others less. For example, IPII supported Opus Dei, Francis is not a fan.

So it is complex. I can find common ground and be close with some (involved and active, not counting just social pro forms adherents), but not with others.