What is science?

Fat_tony..

Really. 'spacetime' is 'understood' by humans?
Rubbish.
Occam has already pointed out that time is an open theory.
What is space, fat tony? Another open theory.
Can you define 'zero point' energy theory.
What IS the physical makeup of space?
Science knows not...do you?

If you cannot answer this, as no human mathematician can.
Then you know nothing of 'spacetime'

Its a word you use to sound worldly...no?

Occam

 

I never said we understood it said we can describe using GR. I can no more than you explain what is going on but I can describe and predict and make some pretty good predictions. I can use analogies to things with similar mathematical descriptions such as masses on ruber sheets and so on. When you say understand I think you mean, and perhaps not without reason, that we have a complete mental picture of exactly what is going on that could be painted by an artist. I question whether this is ever possible, picturing 4 dimensional topology is very difficult and im not sure anyone claims to be able to do it I certainly cant because our minds are 3D. I suspect that we may always be restricted to a mathematical description. If you take someone who has been blind their entire life try to desrbe to them the colour blue you will meet with little success you may be able to teach them Maxwells theory of electromagnetism and explain that the eye is able to detect certain wavelengths of radiation but they will not know the sky or the sea. In much the same way our brains are not able to see 4 dimensions its possible we'll always be blind men trying to see blue. But with maths we can always describe it and one day use it even if we can never see it. After all we cannot see electrons tunnel but we use this everyday.

As for zero point energy goes this is a poorly understood effect of quantum theory. I cant remember the details but it was first postulated by some blocke called Casimir back in the early days of QM and finally found experimentally by Robert Forward in 1984. One of the consequences Heisenberg uncertainty principle is that in any given volume of space there is a minimum energy, the zero point energy. Google it for the maths if your interested. No one knows quite what the energy desnsity of the zero point energy is it could be enough to destroy the Earth or not enough to make a cup of tea. I dont know if I use it to sound worldly but I do know what it means which is a start at least.

 

Fat_tony

Occam has nothing more to say.
You already believe all the answers.
May your life be wonderfull.

Occam

 

Occam / Tony,


Occam I think Tony is being really balanced in his approach here, I think the point that he initially made about 'visualization' is really a very good point and touches on the ability of humans to have significant insight, or awarenesses, without having the ability to immediately "translate" these insights into 'tangible form (also see this post); however I strongly disagree with Tony on the specualtion that our ability to analyze what I will phrase as "internal abilty to dynamically process and observe information in greater than 3D" is probably not available, although I am pleased with the associated question.

On the speculation about limitations on the information that can be conveyed to non-sighted people I believe one should be very cautious about approaching any conclusion that this is not possible; as one example of phenomena that is potentially related to this question I point you to the following link:

http://www.bluecatsandchartreusekittens.com/Blue_Cats_and_Chartreuse_Kittens_Rel.html

Casimir Effect: as I recall, first [possibly] measured using two very closely placed metal "plates."

David


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Yeah the experiment with the metal plates was the first confirmation of the effect. The principle is fairly straight forward but detecting such a small effect with so many other factors was the challenge. Although this a fairly crude demonstration of what may prove to be a very important principle.

Its a dangerous thing to say never particularly in science and I am aware that blindness may one day be a thing of the past particularly where the damage is to the eye or the optic nerve, but the point I was trying to make was far more fundamental and perhaps the eye is not a sufficiently powerful analogy. Perhaps I should have compared it to drawing an electron.

I question I have been asked on more than one occasion is what colour or even what does an electron look like. Well this question is more than just difficult to answer its impossible because it has no answer. Something can only have colour if it is larger than the wavelength of light so infact the electron has no colour and no appearance, the whole idea of trying visualise one is not just hard its meaningless. Even asking what shape an electron is, is an exercise in feutility. It has no shape, its doesnt even have a definite position. Maybe in the future we will have some way of perceiving it who knows, nerve say never, but what we can say is it wont be with any of the senses we have now. Even then who says we seeing the correct thing, our current senses lie to us all the time anyway. The real truth will always lie in the equations we they're free from the clouds of the mind and the lies of perception.

 

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David.

Occam returns your earlier compliments.
He finds his place in your words.

Occam

 

Fat_tony

Please accept appology for the
"you already believe all the answers"
comment.

While occam never makes excuses. [ for none can claim the right of an excuse]
He does freely admit his own error.
He mistook you for one who accepts preconcieved ideas as totallly valid.

Give a few days for a complete re-reading and some time for thought.
With dark shades and an attitude...[i'll be back]

Occam

 

Handbags at dawn?

 

Long is the road, humility is golden.
Earnest recitation will take root.



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Midnight

Occam is one of the great unwashed.
No tertiary formal education.
No family of socal standing.
No friends but the ones worth having.
Wholely from the wrong side of the tracks.

Occam is a computer technician in the game of money.
He taught it to himself.
Also self taught is
Printer/collator.
Antique restorer.
photographer.
Motorcycle racer.
Pilot.
Geopolitical/military historian.
Weapons technician.
Philosopher.
Father.
Manager.

Yes.
Occam is but a small thing. of little value.

Occam