What is GOD anyway?

Dear Snakeyes,

I like the way you think about all of this.

At the core of every one of the great spiritual traditions, there is an identical, essential realization. Humanity exists (consciously and harmoniously, or not) as a part of a unified, omni-transcendent reality.

It has nothing to do with control. I have always worried about those who see religion as a problem of dominance.

Actually, the great problems of humanity are a direct result of either a lapse in consciousness, or a gross disharmony that violates this unity. Ignorance, oppression, injustice, hatred, violence, war, destruction, all of these are problems of restricted consciousness and insufficient harmony.

The only way to create anything better is to cultivate more and better consciousness and harmony, and then let people be free with their creativity, love wisdom, and so on. Cultivating this consciousness and harmony is the ultimate purpose of religion.

If you can think about the traditions as an ongoing conversation about the best way(s) to do this . . .

Peace and Love

 

So just as people create god to explain why the sun comes up, the Indians created all this spiritual mumbo jumbo to explain consciousness?

 

Kumar, my friend, Im not hurt at all! And I
see that my post come off as kind of rude.
I was sure snake eyes and yourself werent
even talking to me directly, I was just
clearing up my position that we are suffering
in the West in matters of spirituality, which
is painfully obvious. No harm done here Kumar,
I have nothing but respect for you, and have
since I first joined this forum

 

What God is not:

God did not write, or directly influence anyone to write the bible. If he had, Genesis would not be filled with inaccuracies such as how the Earth, Moon, Sun, and stars, and other things about life on Earth were created.

God did not create me. My parents did. And he certainly did not create my child. I have my wife's fertility doctor to thank for her.

God did not create the plant and animal species in existance today. Those species became what they are through evolution.

God does not create that feeling of spiritual completeness that some people experience. That feeling can be recreated by neurologists stimulating the brain a certain way, or through drugs. Look up serotonin, dopamine and religion.

God does not affect the weather. If he did, meteorologists could not predict it. Yes the weather has done things that were not predicted, but our success rate at prediction is getting better. And it is technology that is improving prediction not our understanding of God.

God did not create the Earth and the solar system. That was triggered by a nearby supernova which peppered the cloud of gas and dust which became our solar system with radioactive aluminum (among other things), which decayed into magnesium that we can see throughout the solar system. We can also see through telescopes how stars and solar systems are "created".

God did not create the beautiful sunset that provokes awe. Those colors are the result of Rayleigh and Mie scattering.

When you're out at sea in a storm, and the coast guard comes to rescue you, don't thank God. Thank the men & women of the coast guard who put their lives on the line for you.

When you get cancer, do you blame God? No. Why thank God when you are cured? Thank your doctor.

You say there's beauty all around us. How can mere physical processes create such beauty? Take a look at the Mandelbrot fractal. Many people say that it is beautiful. It is in fact infinitely complex. You can zoom in to features on it for all eternity and always find more. It never exactly repeats itself either. And all it is, is a set of complex (i.e. non-real number) numbers. A given complex number either belongs to the set (defined by a simple equation) or it doesn't. When this is plotted out, you get a beautiful fractal with infinite complexity. Same goes for physical laws. When applied consistently throughout the universe, they also create beauty and complexity.

God is what he has always been: An explaination for things we cannot explain.... yet. Which leaves the initial creation of the universe up until 10^-43 seconds after, and also the force that pops up the next Kleenex when you pull one out.

 

I have a son as well, and considering that my part
in his creation was simply an in and out movement
leading to the projection of my baby code fluid, and
that his mothers part in it was making sure she was
healthy and careful while her body naturally took care
of the process automatically, I tend to not really
take much credit for Jack's existance. It is my belief
that a soul enters a womb with help from the creative
dance of of sexual intercourse, but that we dont
actually 'create' anyone, babies are born through us,
not from us, so to speak.
I may very well be wrong, just stating my opinion is all

 

Hare Krishna!

From Relayer........

Kumar, my friend, Im not hurt at all! And I
see that my post come off as kind of rude.
I was sure snake eyes and yourself werent
even talking to me directly, I was just
clearing up my position that we are suffering
in the West in matters of spirituality, which
is painfully obvious. No harm done here Kumar,
I have nothing but respect for you, and have
since I first joined this forum

Dear Relayer,

Thanks for your very nice and kind post. I feel a great relief.

I would just add a few more words here. I do not understand why people in the West should suffer in matters of spirituality. Spiritually nobody is less than anybody and in the West people, in their minds, are more simple, honest, sincere and much less hypocrites. I can emphatically say this to you and all other Western forum friends. If you ask me, these are the basic qualities which matter most in seeking God. You are already miles ahead by dint of this qualities which are very natural to most of you.

If you feel you are suffering, I must tell you that it is just a complex because you are not used to big talks, book knowledges, Yogic processes, you have not read thick complicated books written by Sri Aurobindo and so many others, confusion about sanskrit and vedic terms and so on.

Thankfully, dear Snakeyes has understood the basics of spiritualism and has hit this complex right on its head. You do not need to know or bother much about all these. The basic knowledge has been there with all of us from time immemorial, no matter where we live or belong. When you love somebody intensely, automatically you do one thing only....you keep thinking of him or her every moment in everything you do. Same way, if you believe and love God intensely you will automatically do the same thing. This has been termed as Meditation in other words.

Shri Yogi Bhairav very often rightly talks about Kula Kundalini which is in fact the main and ultimate thing that takes us to the realm of God or divine consciousness. Whatever we do in seeking God is actually, knowingly or unknowingly, to awaken this kundalini or serpentile power. All processes, and all struggles end in doing this only. But the point is we do not need to go into the details of these terms, processes, complications, etc, etc.

When you love God intensely and do the best meditation in the way of thinking and remembering Him at all times, this Kundalini eventually wakes up and you acquire all the knowledges in stages..... you automatically come to know whether it goes up or comes down to or from your head, it jumps or moves at a snail's pace and what actually happens then.... all knowledges come. So why bother about that now, grow complexes and suffer ? Should not we start from Class-1 instead of bothering and getting frustrated looking at the subjects of M.A. ? Today's ignorant baby is tomorrow's Ph.D. Today's satan is tomorrow's saint......Love is the only key and answer. Nothing else is required, love for God alone does everything.

With lots of love,

Kumar.

 

Hare Krishna !

Interesting posts from MrStiffy and Relayer, thanks.

Wonder who danced on who when the first living being came into being !

Love,

Kumar.

 

You are wonderful Kumar, and I may have
read one too many books on yoga and esoteric
spirituality, upanishads, gita, vedanta etc. but
I am beginning to see what you are getting at
in your post is how it goes, when you love God
and meditate deeply, this is what works. And
truly the most bliss I've ever had was closing
my eyes, sitting on the floor, and reaching out
to God with my heart and soul

 

There are too many assumptions about what God is and what God isn't, for my tastes.

Wordplay won't disprove or prove God's existence. Feelings alone won't prove this as well, or can they? I don't know. But God might not be measurable, empirically. Not because he doesn't exist, but is due to the nature of God.

Just because there seems to be no design to the universe, doesn't mean that the universe wasn't designed. You would first need to reexamine the meaning behind design. Would His design be planned out? Purposely chaotic? Who knows... but design may be the wrong word to use. When you were born, did you design your body, or was it already there with you at your birth? I am sorry for quoting the bible, but I have to add this: "I am who I am".

You sell God short if you think that God snaps his fingers for things to magically exist. If God exists, he may be infinitely complex and perfect. It wouldn't take much thought to conclude that His 'design' is as complex as He. Science is the pursuit of understanding nature. This pursuit doesn't weaken man's connection with the divine - It only strengthens it -- Because the more we understand nature - The more we realize just how magical, reality is.

 

Excellent post, but perhaps too dogmatic.
--You say that God did not "directly influence" anyone to write the Bible, because there are inaccuracies in it. That assumes that God was giving dictation, or seeking to communicate with us, rather than mortals being inspired by their religious experience to try to capture the ineffable in words. That is influence, "direct" or otherwise.
--Nobody has ever thought or suggested that God specially creates each of us in the womb from scratch, an absurd idea. It is possible that God set in motion the processes that led to life, and eventually to your DNA. Science hasn't yet been able to explain the origins of life, and a number of reputable scientists are impressed at the "fine tuning" that led to a life-friendly environment on our planet.
--Evolution is accepted by many believers. The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches,mainline Protestant Churches, and even some Evangelical Christians like Dr. Francis Collins of the Genome Project have no problem with it. You're arguing a non-issue.
--There is no evidence that our consciousness is a function of neurobiology. Atheist Sam Harris has conceded this, and thinks that science may never be able to show otherwise.
--Some superstitious people may believe that storms and natural disasters are caused by God's wrath, but it hardly is much of an argument against mainstream religion to say that they aren't. Most people of faith don't believe they are. You create a straw person and gloat when you demolish it.
--Those Coast Guard rescuers may be motivated by religious beliefs.
--The Earth and Solar System may have been created by the processes you describe, but nobody knows how the universe was created. Atheists who offer natualistic explanations are just guessing.
--Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Atheists like Karl Sagen and Julian Huxley, and pantheists like Einstein, have expressed their awe of the regularity and order resulting from those physical laws you mention. Your proposed reductionist explanation of the complex specified information in the universe is speculation.
--God is, among other things, an explanation of things we cannot otherwise explain, but so is naturalism. You assume that if we don't know the naturalistic explanation "yet", we will some day, or at least there is one. That remains simply an assumption.

 

"i dream therefore i am not"

 

Excellent way to view it Prabhu. And to qoute from the "Siva Sutras, The Mind is the slayer of the real" this "real" being the "absolute."

 

More like "otherwise". I can be inspired by someone's life and go write a book or make a movie about it. It doesn't mean what I have written is correct. I may have totally missed the point of their life story and what drove them to do what they did. It's just something I have written because I was moved to do so. This is why I used the phrase 'directly influence'.

There are literally an astronomical number of planets, and they come in an astronomical number of varieties. If they are ideally suitable for life, then life will arise there and if they evolve intelligence they will be amazed at how "finely tuned" their planet is. Let's look at the alternative: Earth is like Venus with clouds of hydrochloric acid, an atmospheric pressure 900 times what we experience consisting of mostly carbon dioxide. Temperatures hot enough to melt led. Yet somehow we are living there thinking what a crappy place it is. Well the reality is that we could never have evolved there, because it isn't suitable for life.

Good for them. I am happy that they have embraced the scientific findings on evolution. Now what about the Kansas school board who wants to discredit evolution? What about the fundamentalists who promote Intelligent Design? What about the local IMAX theater that refused to show a movie about dinosaurs because it discussed evolution?

That is incorrect. Google "Who's life would you save" and read that article. It shows experimental evidence that our consciousness is a function of neurobiology.

You don't live in the bible belt do you?

I also am amazed by the beauty of the natural world. But give me an example of a complex phenomenon that cannot be described by a set of physical laws?

Naturalism is the assumption that observable effects in nature are best explainable only by natural causes. This has been overwelmingly true. Are there any supernatural explainations that can be demonstrated? If so, collect $1 million from the Amazing Randi.

Given the track record of naturalism, it seems like a safe bet. But that's just me.

 

Your present two extreme cases: God giving dicatation, on the one hand, and us using the Bible randomly or purely subjectively for whatever thought or purpose comes to mind, on the other hand. What about a middle course, that approximates the understanding of some progressive believers toward scripture? They intuitively sense certain truths about God and reality and try to put them into words. They see, as St. Paul puts it, "Through a glass darkly", or as Plato put it, shadows on the wall of a cave. The full truth is beyond human understanding; the light would be blinding. The Qur'an says that Allah sent messengers to every people on the face of the earth. By tradition, there were 124,000 such prophets--the number symbolizing a large, indefinite number. Obviously, the Prophet Muhammed was aware that their understandings did not entirely agree with his, but they all conveyed part of the essential truth. Why didn't God give them a clearer, more consistent vision? How would I know? I'm not God. Maybe He thinks it's more interesting this way, or maybe He just doesn't care whether or not we get it. We tend to be hung up with the differences and details instead of focusing on the essential truths.

If I understand your point, you're suggesting we're the lucky winners in the cosmic lottery. Winning the sweepstakes is always highly improbable, but somebody will win, and maybe it was us. Congratulations! But I'm skeptical.

The fundamentalists are throwbacks. By the fourth century and even before, the non-literalists prevailed among educated Christians. As I said on another thread, Church fathers like St. Augustine and Origen thought, especially where Genisis was concerned, that the literalists were simply absurd, since even then Genesis couldn't be squared with a rational understanding of physical reality. The star witness for Darwin and against the Intelligent Design crew in the Dover, Pa., school board case was Dr. Kenneth Miller, Darwinist and devout Catholic. And the principal Intelligent Design proponents have evolved. Dembsky and Behe both concede human evolution and kinship to chimps; they just don't think it could have come about without intervention by a Higher Intelligence. I admit it's disturbing that the knuckle draggers are walking the streets, driving cars, serving on school boards, and electing Presidents, but hey, that's America.

You better believe I do. Oklahoma is the very "Buckle of the Bible Belt". We have Oral Roberts with his 20 foot tall Jesus. I'm fully aware that there are folks who think that storms and natural disasters are sent by God to punish us for one thing or another, gays and abortion being the leading contenders. After 9-11 and Katrina, we had our share of letters in the local newspapers attributing both events to God's wrath. Some argued, however, that it was God's punishment for re-electing Bush--a possibility that might deserve serious consideration. What can we do? I wrote a letter explaining why I thought this view was irrational. Since God is so thoroughly unclear about which of several possible sins, He's punishing us for, why take innocent lives to make an ambiguous point? That's enough for tonight. I'll try to get to the rest of your issues tommorrow.

 

God is and underachiever

 

Life? The origin of the universe? Scientists can speculate on how those could have occurred as a result of physical laws, but it's still speculation.

Many people report personal experiences that they attribute to supernatural forces. However, by definition,these events don't happen on a regular, predictable basis, so they can't be "demonstrated". When told about these occurrences, we have three choices: dismiss them as lies or hallucinations (as I'm sure many of them are); believe them; or keep an open mind, while remaining skeptical, as I tend to do. To me, a lot depends on the credibility and number of the witnesses. I've had some friends whom I otherwise consider sensible, level-headed people tell me of experiences I find hard to believe (seeing auras, having wounds healed overnight when sleeping in a pyramid, etc.) I store these reports in the X-files, pending corroboration. I've personally experienced some stuff that is difficult, although not impossible, for me to explain scientifically, and I follow the same strategy with that, as well. Coincidences and hallucinations remain plausible alternatives.

Me, too. Generally speaking, I'm also skeptical of supernatural explanations, and as a matter of policy prefer explanations that fit with the rest of our knowledge of the world gained through rigorous testing. Where we may differ is that I do this as a matter of policy, but (possibly because I live in a social environment of believers) I'm acutely aware that I'm just "betting". And I do tend to accept the notion of a Higher Power as consistent with reason and natural law.

 

For those of you who have enough gumption to look, find the definition of that term, the "immanent Absolute." Immanent means an existent phenomenon that is present as an immediate state, absolute means unchanging, outside of time and variance, and eternally constant. ​

So the term immanent absolute refers to an ever existent changeless state that basically is "being" itself, but a state of being outside of our conjecture of ego self awareness. In metaphysical terms the immanent absolute is the eternal mind of the universe that is a Self, an "eternal self" that can be experienced by the embodied being as a state of consciousness, and is not a thought or cognitve creation or manipulation.
This immanent absolute being of existence is the Self of God that is reality itself, it is the source of all consiousness, and its reality is verified by experiencing it as a subjective state that thoroughly replaces the experience of the finite self. If you are looking for God, look into the mirror. Your consciousness is being spontaneously dreamed by Him. Think as you wish.
The simple fact is that experiencing God as this dynamic living state of consciousness known throughout antiquity as Samadhi, is the goal of Yoga Tantra, and in fact is the actual state of "Yoga, union", itself.

 

ahaha this is exactly how I feel about god.

 

Really?! Fun day! Im always so excited when other people
feel the same way as me, its nice to know there's more of
us out there
The light behind the light of creation, through the neon dots
that appear in the vision at the points where the two path
ways of sight meet, turned inwardly. The 3rd Eye perception
break through, past the manifested nonsensical fairys of the
energy and astral planes God is on the other side of the
bubbling atom blossoms of existance.
Namaste Family -

 

There you have it! Fantasy, imagination, hallucinations of an imperfect chemical mind, mental tendencies bred and amplified through religious genocides over millions of years...

There is you God.