What is a properly functioning democracy?

Z

The thing you describe would just seem to back up my view that it would be a plutocratic system.

At the moment in many places such things are usually paid out of a community chest that is paid into at differing rates due to progressive taxation, so no people don’t pay the same.

Many things like for example sewage systems in poor areas have came about through public money and government regulation.

Under an ability to pay scheme rich areas could afford to build and maintain a sewage system while poorer areas might not.

Same with an ability to pay fire service wealth might be able to pay into what is basically an insurance scheme but the poorer might not. In Britain before the public fire brigades there used to be many fire services, people would pay and have a plaque on their walls to show they had - no plaque and even if a service arrived they’d just let the building burn, same if it was a rival company that arrived first, they’d do nothing.

Time and again ability to pay schemes would seem to favour wealth over other sections of society. In other word a plutocratic system.

As I’ve said before to me systems should be about balance with these kind of things it seems to me that there should be a balance between the short term interests of certain individuals and the long term interests of the communities they live in.

Those born into disadvantage would be further disadvantaged and those born into advantage would be greatly advantaged.

What about those that cannot afford a house?

Ok so you are saying that they have an asset that has vastly increased in value but which they cannot maintain because they don’t have any income? Why is there no income?

In the UK we have the Council Tax our local district tax and low income households can get a reduction (up to a 100%).

 

well no it would not actually.

Sewage; I can rent a back hoe and put in a sewage system for a few thousand bucks. Dump in the proper bacteria to clean up the sewage and the system is self supporting for several generations with an equivalent discharge not much different from plant life cycles.

this is opposed to the corporate sewage system where a single person today can expect to pay between 600 and 1200 per year per person provided they only use enough water for basic necessities.

Bottom line community sewage costs infinitely more than a private system and is forced upon people like it or not and you pay for the "FORCED service" year in and year out inperpetuity.

Same with fire. A resourceful person can put in a sprinkler system with one small pipe per room (+one addition over the kitchen stove) that would put any fire out much faster than waiting 20 minutes for firemen to arrive. Again the private system is paid for one time with no further extortion charges.

Same with water for most home owners, you could opt to pump your own water for the cost of the electricity to run the motor and you do not have to deal with the chlorine and fluoride additives.

Your system fuels the wealthy because it champions the creation of corporate municipalities that ultimately force people to pay them to build, manage, and maintain a system that despite those who do want it, is not needed or wanted by many who do not.

Anytime you give government the opportunity to "regulate anything" like a naughty child they will arrange their affairs such that over time they will regulate "everything" and with force.

How you can conclude that the ability to opt out of paying money to the plutocracy fuels the plutocracy is beyond me when they or their buddy corporations are no longer receiving their yearly "fee" from you?

Where is the balance in the system as it stands?

Its a "one shoe fits all" plutocratic-democracy with forced services at the end of the barrel of a gun monopoly. No choices No alternatives No options. You pay or lose your house.

Those that cannot afford a house are tenants and pay rent to the tenant landlord who passes along the rents and service charges to the sovereign, (state), where in the UK taxes are paid to the owner of estate, and in our case the state of xyz, same thing, they simply dropped the "e" when creating the americanized plantations, so it functions no different than the uk feudal system really. (that many brits incorrectly believe has been abolished, another topic)

Which brings us right back to the invoice issue, which the whole premise is the ability to opt out.

So if you simply insist that a state must regulate everything they could have an opt in version which is simply pay the bill, done, or an opt out version which requires a private sprinkler to opt out (which is far better than a fire dept) and/or a private sewage system for those who wish to opt out. The building had to be built to exist and that is when these systems would be put in, or they would be a required addition if desired after the original construction. (of course requiring a private sprinkler in ones home is also a police state trespass, the "realm" on your turf)

Roads are built primarily with gas tax, another matter for the most part not a required part of this discussion.

Then we get to schools. If you are a tenant on the land aka ("in-fee-simple" property owner) in america you will pay the school tax. The irony that so many people are home schooling now days due to the disgusting quality of the school system today. Yet there is no way to opt out of the taxation that pays for it despite the fact you would not use it. Same situation as the fire and sewer and like fire and sewer poor people are still required to pay despite home schooling their children. Other cheaper options exist but people are forced into paying these wealthy corporations despite that fact in your system.

Worse the schools in the US have tenured employees and are given a blank check with few requirements beyond simply filling in the number and we get continually diminishing returns.

No I am not aware that any such reduction exists anywhere in the US., that even approaches 20% much less 100%, and yes people in the US get to look forward to being taxed right out of their paid in full homes in their retirement years. We have ad valorem uniform tax laws, so they cant do that here, it would be considered favoritism.

You have provided a narrow looking through a pipe view with no options when several options exist. That is the whole problem with government and proves the bogus use of democracy to support and insure the inperpetuity of the plutocracy by any other name.

It seems to me if the community is hell bent on getting these services to the poor as you say then they could equally grant them a loan to put in sprinklers and sewage with a one time payback rather than the monthly stipend to maintain state jobs and infrastructure and management and enforcement etc etc etc.

Granted there is always an exception such as downtown new york, which people would be left with no choice due to the concrete jungle, however the exception proves the rule.

George Carlin was from new york, and despite the fact you apparently do not like his assessment he sums up the state of the union better than any propaganda spinning president we have EVER had!

People here, in the US, are FORCED to PAY for the "whole" public monopolized system inperpetuity despite need, use or necessity. Not to mention all the government pork that is stacked on top in addition.

That said I disagree, we know for a fact your system created and maintains the plutocracy, and you are faced with showing how the ability to opt out fuels that same plutocratic system and somehow denies the poorer communities when private installations long term are far cheaper and does not "needlessly" fund and feed the plutocractic wealthy cancer that has invaded the body with "sovereign immunity". your analysis does not add up.

 

Z

I can’t tell if you are just naive or have little experience of the real world. Sorry but it’s just that you seem to have a simplistic view of problems and solutions that do not seem based in realities.

The US is now more of an urban society and urban areas are where large numbers of the poor live and go to in search of work.

If you read up on the rise of urban centers in the industrial revolution and in many third world countries today, you might understand the problems with your ideas. If you look at the history of municipal sewage systems again you might understand more the problems with you ideas.

Also septic tanks have to be maintained at a high standard to be effective and if they are not the problems can be expensive to clean up. The more tanks the more problems, especially by those that out of economic necessity do not maintain them.

Also in the UK I believe a property can be given exemption from wastewater charges if they have a septic tank and are not connected to the public sewerage system and not that many have them and virtually all are in rural areas. I live in London and I have not the space or inclination to have one.

In the real world I don’t think it practicable for urban areas or desirable I think you’d get many incidences and here the possibility is there and few opt for it.

*

So rather than having a fire service you’d hope that everyone in a building was ‘resourceful’ and responsible?

I have a fire extinguisher, smoke alarms and ready access to running water but I’d still want a fire services. Even if I never needed it I’d still want it for others.

*

LOL the water in London comes from as far away as Wales and a lot of it has to be recycled. Do you think any of this through?

And where it is possible here in the UK if you are not connected to the public system you don’t pay but again few opt for it.

Again I don’t think it practicable for urban areas where most people live these days.

*

As to schooling here is a review of - The Age of American Unreason: dumbing down and the future of democracy by Susan Jacoby. Which I think you should read -
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=6532483&postcount=42

Anyway many people do not have the aptitude, inclination, time or knowledge to home school in a pay as you go scheme the disadvantage are unlikely to get very good education and the advantaged would. Your ideas would make a bad situation worse.
*

 

Neither,
these matters just happen to be reducible into very simple terms, when one understands how to get to the lowest common denominator.

The whole population of the US could easily fit into texas, not sure how that could reasonable be called urban?

Telling me to look things up that are not already on the table for debate really isnt debating an issue. If you want to actually debate the issue you will need to list those points as I have.

Not the case here, once a municipality is created they pass ordinances not only to prevent people from putting in a system in new construction but also but they also pass ordinances that make it difficult for people to retain their existing systems to coerce them onto and into the corporate monopoly.

If you want to grow burdock for medicial purposes the city will fine you for having weeds, you are required to cut your lawn to 4inches, and if it gets longer then 7inches you will be fined.

I have seen people get fined by the democracy because the distance between the first step and the sidewalk is 1/2 inch higher (different) than the distance between the first and second step with the claim that a public officer might trip and hurt himself while trespassing on your private property, yet when you go down to the municipal building their steps are falling apart with rebar sticking out of it that catches your shoe and sends you tripping on your way.

Of course if you file a complaint against them for the same violations it gets tossed on yeh yeh fuck you stack. "sovereign immunity"!

They fine people with the claim of "violation" before your day in court to "pad the bill", then when in court all they have to show is that a "violation" occurred, nothing more, rights not withstanding, regardless of how ridiculous it is. Its my way or the highway do as I say or we take your shit, put you jail or shoot you which ever you prefer!

Between the legislature, courts, and executive, (and the help of the BAR "association") the "Just-Us" club, they created an impenetrable rubber stamp extortion business.

Hell I have seen people lined up out the door and out onto the sidewalk outside these municipal courts and those are only the poor people who come to beg for mercy the bulk of these fines most people just pay them because we all know its sanctioned extortion that no one can do anything about short of a revolution.

You can argue the problems associated with sewage if you like, however this IS the defacto fruit of democracy, or a rebublic for that matter, (anything system that removes power from the individual "GENERALLY" *which has been done defacto, Spies v US exparte* as the highest authority and turns it over to another). "Mob Rule"

I cant imagine what you are referring to in so far as incidences are concerned, but like traffic do we force people onto trains because there are more incidents on the street with cars? Of course not, so I fail to see your point.

The standard in a democracy (or a republic for that matter) is to regulate (by police action) a one shoe fits all system, as I said, and FORCE everyone under one roof, (which has already been done regardless of their circumstances), is that what you are suggesting?

Otherwise in your example you are talking about a public building and that is understandable, (provided a private agreement between the parties is nonexistent and the party agrees to be adopt and be governed by said municipal rules), however when agent smith simply morphs himself [as a government interloper] into the private sector, as agent smith has that is going to far.

Fine for you, that is your "choice". You can convince others and your neighbors to do the same, but when you come in with the legislature gang and they come in with their hired guns and force people to accept your choice by charging them without regard to their own choice then we have a problem, and that is where we are at today.

In america, the state county and municipalities have claimed every imaginable right there is to be had in their charters, and the individual is last on the list.

You have the right to breath air BUT only if you know how to duck dodge dart the procedural labyrinth and nightmare to defend yourself in the stacked deck we call a court.

Even then the only way you win if you come in without paying ransom to a BAR card attorney is if you box the judge in so tight that they and the attorney cannot double team you and will wind up with criminal charges if they do not rule in your favor. Most cases they find any "plausible" reason to rule against you in a summary judment procedure FORCING YOU TO PAY for an appeal, yeh you often win on appeal, but you spend enourmous hours researching cases and then the cherry on top is that you cannot collect fees for your time acting as your own defense because you do not hold a fucking bar card.

Yeh democracy? Go for it, I can tell you all about american democracy and what I have witnessed!

The 10th amendment to the constitution is an evil joke that completely misrepresents the "defacto" system.

Why you would give me the age of american unreason when I can rip the "house of cards" brit legal and governmental system to shreds (and often do), is beyond me. The american side is more fragile than your side.

Simply telling me "there are problems, go read a book", is not a debate.

I could understand if they were or should be well known problems, however government is always structured so problems are created, hence opening the flood gates for mission creep and government growth.

In other words government does not solve one problem without creating a minimum of 2 more for job security.

No system is without its problems. If you have any particular point you want to debate from that book put it on the table.

If you simply think I am unreasonable or uninformed you have not put up anything what so ever in support of that notion. (aside from you seem to think much more government is necessary than I do)

Otherwise even as an american, in general I agree, americans arent real bright. Georges monologue

If you have specific points you want to discuss, something I can really bite into, feel free to articulate them, otherwise you have not really provided anything probatively persuasive at this point.

Home schooled children typically score higher than public schooled based on the public school test platform, which does not include the vast education beyond the public platform that they receive at home.

 

Z

As I said earlier – “Next you will be telling me you can’t remember what was said and could I repeat it, that’s what Indie does”

This is just a variation on that evasion tactic.

I think the problem is that sometimes your ego suppresses you reasoning.

It’s about being informed but I’m getting the impression that you don’t think you need to be informed because you believe you already know.

I think your words speak for themselves on that.

*

The rest of your post is basically more evasion and a spittle spraying rant on your pet hates.

 

Z

Ok I’ll take this as an example of not address the criticisms levelled at your ideas.

I said – many people do not have the aptitude, inclination, time or knowledge to home school in a pay as you go scheme the disadvantage are unlikely to get very good education and the advantaged would. Your ideas would make a bad situation worse.

You don’t address that you just tell me how well scoring home school kids are. But the demographic of homeschooling households has been described as mainly “White, middle-class, conservative Protestant… in which the mother is primarily responsible for the children's schooling”.

It needs at least one adult not to be working or in having the resources to hire tutors, and it would be best that the adult had a reasonable and wide educational knowledge, and was able to be objective and not be motivated by their own prejudices. Also you can be taught to pass tests but that doesn’t mean that understanding has been gained or thought provoked.

As I’ve said - I’m a great believer in education, and I believe that debate is a great way to learn, but it has to be open and honest debate – the problem is that many people prefer assertion to honest debate. They do not seem to want to question their ideas they don’t seem even to want to examine them for fear they might not hold up to scrutiny.

The thing is that the greatest impact on a human’s education is connected to socio-economic station and the education level of guardians which has an impact on environment and educational possibilities.

The thing is in a pay as you go scheme like the one you seem to have suggested extra wealth can buy a better education, it can purchase pre-school places, it can mean a parent been able to stay at home with the child, it means been able to buy into an area with good schools, it means been able to afford educational trips, it means that private tutoring can be given and be paid for or summer schools, it means having the ability to pay for private schools with small class sizes personal tuition and top of the range facilities (where they can make connections that can help them in the future), it means that educational tools are available or can be bought and so on.

And the thing is that educated parents more often than not produce educated children and not all of that is conscious education a lot of what children learn is picked up by just watching and listening what is going on around them (their environment).

So even before normal formal education begins those from higher socio-economic groups have an advantage and wealth can mean keeping that advantage.

Try reading
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Level-Equality-Better-Everyone/dp/0241954290"]The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone: Amazon.co.uk: Richard Wilkinson, Kate Pickett: Books

 

You claim everything suggested will tip the balance in favor of the wealthy.

I claim that is the way it is now and listed several things put up on the table here that will eliminate those problems, yet it seems you feel that my approach is dishonest somehow and summarily dismiss everything but the ongoing status quo which to my knowledge few would argue is completely corrupt and in favor of the wealthy.

Arguing against pay as you go is counterintuitive since that is the way it is right now.

For homeschooling you omitted the part where I said their test scores equal and exceed public school kids. That establishes a standard despite parental education levels.

The status quo is not equality.

I said the same and agree with that part of your post.

However the libraries are free despite the parental education level and we have screens now days that bring them right into our living rooms.

The statist status quo feeds the monster, and like cancer it grows faster than the host can support it. There is no equality in statism, democracy or republics, or for that matter where any party is subject to another with very limited exceptions like murder and things like that.

The sole purpose of government is force not equality.

If the individual is stripped of their sovereign dignity then they are nothing more than slaves, and the states have claimed exclusive rights to sovereignty and by force enslaved the benevolent individuals.

 

Z

You are still not addressing what was raised earlier, can you please do so.

I’ve said many times that I think that the neo-liberal policies followed over the last thirty years or so has vastly increased the power and influence of wealth and I’ve explained why I think your pay as you go scheme would more than likely just increase that power and influence, please address those criticisms.

Could you please read the posts – to repeat -

I said – many people do not have the aptitude, inclination, time or knowledge to home school in a pay as you go scheme the disadvantage are unlikely to get very good education and the advantaged would. Your ideas would make a bad situation worse.

You don’t address that you just tell me how well scoring home school kids are. But the demographic of homeschooling households has been described as mainly “White, middle-class, conservative Protestant… in which the mother is primarily responsible for the children's schooling”.

It needs at least one adult not to be working or in having the resources to hire tutors, and it would be best that the adult had a reasonable and wide educational knowledge, and was able to be objective and not be motivated by their own prejudices. Also you can be taught to pass tests but that doesn’t mean that understanding has been gained or thought provoked.

As I’ve said - I’m a great believer in education, and I believe that debate is a great way to learn, but it has to be open and honest debate – the problem is that many people prefer assertion to honest debate. They do not seem to want to question their ideas they don’t seem even to want to examine them for fear they might not hold up to scrutiny.

The thing is that the greatest impact on a human’s education is connected to socio-economic station and the education level of guardians which has an impact on environment and educational possibilities.

The thing is in a pay as you go scheme like the one you seem to have suggested extra wealth can buy a better education, it can purchase pre-school places, it can mean a parent been able to stay at home with the child, it means been able to buy into an area with good schools, it means been able to afford educational trips, it means that private tutoring can be given and be paid for or summer schools, it means having the ability to pay for private schools with small class sizes personal tuition and top of the range facilities (where they can make connections that can help them in the future), it means that educational tools are available or can be bought and so on.

And the thing is that educated parents more often than not produce educated children and not all of that is conscious education a lot of what children learn is picked up by just watching and listening what is going on around them (their environment).

So even before normal formal education begins those from higher socio-economic groups have an advantage and wealth can mean keeping that advantage.

Try reading
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Level-Equality-Better-Everyone/dp/0241954290"]The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone: Amazon.co.uk: Richard Wilkinson, Kate Pickett: Books

 

However the point I made about homeschooling was not included as one of the suggestions to cure problems associated or created by the status quo democracy.

The point was government, (the alleged democracy) mention of homeschooling was to denote parental self defense from the governments instutionalizing imprinting and indoctrinating the governments religious beliefs upon children.

Government and the failure and incompatability of democracy/republics and how to cure it (make it functional) is the focus of my posts, not homeschooling, a parental reactionary response to government abuse.

My primary point remains, that nothing short of the dignity of individual sovereignty and a subject state will cure the ongoing dysfunctions and resultant corruption.

Homeschooling was never suggested as a cure to inequally or a solution to the wealth imbalance, so how is it you would demand I should defend something outside my point of focus that is not an element included in the cure?

I expected to get into a forensic discussion rather than dispositive summary dismissal with that regard.

However again computers bring the library into the home, and the state has standard testing, and libraries are free because I pay taxes to make them free. (now there is an oxymoron)

On the other hand I do agree that family dinner table talks play an important role in education, however public schools do not sit around the dinner table and discuss lord rothschilds internal affairs, nothing gained or lost there in either system.

It seems to me people have every reasonable opportunity to get educated outside of systematic forced indoctrination.

 

Z

You are once again refusing to address the points raised or answer the criticisms presented – instead you throw hollow rhetoric at us.

Case in point – this does not address the criticisms raised - to repeat - I said – many people do not have the aptitude, inclination, time or knowledge to home school in a pay as you go scheme the disadvantage are unlikely to get very good education and the advantaged would. Your ideas would make a bad situation worse.

The internet has a lot of crap on it, are you honestly saying that just plonking a child in front of a computer means they’d get a good education?

You don’t address that you just tell me how well scoring home school kids are and that libraries are free. Thing is that the demographic of homeschooling households has been described as mainly “White, middle-class, conservative Protestant… in which the mother is primarily responsible for the children's schooling”.

It needs at least one adult not to be working or in having the resources to hire tutors, and it would be best that the adult had a reasonable and wide educational knowledge, and was able to be objective and not be motivated by their own prejudices. Also you can be taught to pass tests but that doesn’t mean that understanding has been gained or thought provoked.

As I’ve said - I’m a great believer in education, and I believe that debate is a great way to learn, but it has to be open and honest debate – the problem is that many people prefer assertion to honest debate. They do not seem to want to question their ideas they don’t seem even to want to examine them for fear they might not hold up to scrutiny.

The thing is that the greatest impact on a human’s education is connected to socio-economic station and the education level of guardians which has an impact on environment and educational possibilities.

The thing is in a pay as you go scheme like the one you seem to have suggested extra wealth can buy a better education, it can purchase pre-school places, it can mean a parent been able to stay at home with the child, it means been able to buy into an area with good schools, it means been able to afford educational trips, it means that private tutoring can be given and be paid for or summer schools, it means having the ability to pay for private schools with small class sizes personal tuition and top of the range facilities (where they can make connections that can help them in the future), it means that educational tools are available or can be bought and so on.

And the thing is that educated parents more often than not produce educated children and not all of that is conscious education a lot of what children learn is picked up by just watching and listening what is going on around them (their environment).

So even before normal formal education begins those from higher socio-economic groups have an advantage and wealth can mean keeping that advantage.

 

People are too busy supporting the tax based infrastructure forced upon them by the state. None of which was voted for and simply thrust upon us by the WEALTHY in power!

You seem to have the idea that the wealthy send their kids to public schools in the tax based system. No they do not generally, they wind up in yale etc.

So how can it make the situation worse? There is nothing preventing the wealthy from putting their kids through private schools. and they do just that!

Despite the inclination, time, etc etc, that the parent has, the childs education is nonetheless determined by state tests, so your points are moot from what I can see. I do not have a problem with setting a method to gauge learning if its only advisory rather than a requirement.

The child is required to pass state designed tests as they are now and homeschooling material is structured environment.

For those who want to pop out babies and simply do not want to be bothered fine for them, but then why should I be punished and forced to pay for their lazy asses and kids education when the resources are fully available to them?

We are talking lazy at this point because if the parent is too stupid then the study material would educate them as well.

Everything else is factorable but there is no solution for lazy or "other interests" which it appears you are justifying.

Otherwise I see a win win win triple win situation here.

That said I think I addressed your issues in spades, did I not?

 

So the real problem here is that a man sooner or later will die and his assets must be sold off upon his death which creates a conveyance into other hands, he has no perpetual ownership abilities.

However a "state" never dies, nor does a corporation or a trust.

The owners and operators can come and go and die and the corporation has perpetual life along with its legacy.

the wealthy can retain property in the hands of the wealthy for all eternity since their corporate sole never dies.

not only do these democracies have eternal life they have a legacy of laws and ordinances to protect their power as well as their wealth.

So how do you create a function democracy in that environment when the gun is loaded and the deck is stacked so high the hubble cant even see it?

 

Z

But at the moment people pay into the community chest from which the money is drawn to fund public schooling – your pay as you go scheme, where people only pay for the things they use would mean they wouldn’t pay into the chest.

You seem to be suggesting a huge drop in the funding of public education while giving as an alternative something that many would find they were unable to do.

Like the rest of your scheme it would only end up serving the interests of a few rather than the many, it would be ‘undemocratic’

This is just the same old Social Darwinism and prejudice that seems to underpin so much right wing thought.

It’s the idea that it is unintelligence, laziness and sheer bloody mindedness that finds people in disadvantage or hardship.

This is not a rational or reasonable argument

The thing is that the greatest impact on a human’s education is connected to socio-economic station and the education level of guardians which has an impact on environment and educational possibilities.

The thing is in a pay as you go scheme like the one you seem to have suggested extra wealth can buy a better education, it can purchase pre-school places, it can mean a parent been able to stay at home with the child, it means been able to buy into an area with good schools, it means been able to afford educational trips, it means that private tutoring can be given and be paid for or summer schools, it means having the ability to pay for private schools with small class sizes personal tuition and top of the range facilities (where they can make connections that can help them in the future), it means that educational tools are available or can be bought and so on.

And the thing is that educated parents more often than not produce educated children and not all of that is conscious education a lot of what children learn is picked up by just watching and listening what is going on around them (their environment).

So even before normal formal education begins those from higher socio-economic groups have an advantage and wealth can mean keeping that advantage.

 

yes and at the moment the system is root in corruption.

"Community Chest"?

what comminuty chest?

This isnt about using some benevolent piggy bank kept on the dresser, this is about the bench, revenue agents with guns that kick you out of your home and take all your shit called the IRS if you fail to pay homage to the bench, the revenue machine.

Government assumed the name of "public" and "people" and "state", its all the same person in their mind, so while those may be endearing political labels they have nothing to do with the *individual man.

You starve a fire by removing one of the essential elements required for the reaction, living organisms you remove one of the elements its need for survival, corrupt political enties, you remove their funding.

Sometimes in order to kill the beast or a disease the hosts suffer some inconvenience.

There is nothing democratic about it now, the state gave schools a blank check and it serves the interests of the few indentured now.

The states in the US has the full authority of taxation without the consent of those being taxed. This of the people crap never was more than lip service and empty words.

You keep saying that but you have not shown within the boundaries of what I talked about how that would occur, within the system as it is yes nothing more than a simple move on the political chess board to slap everyone right back into subjection.

You are using extreme examples to argue against middle of the road conditions again.

In addition your are blaming hardships caused by the present day undemocratic governments failure, as a result of catering to the wealthy, on to the poor people, yet you simultaneously demand that poor people maintain a standard prescribed by the wealthy to insure the maintenance and survival of the machine that the wealthy created for themselves.



thats not only double think its double dipping and the reason our system is so corrupt in the first place.

What this system has created is no secret, many many cartoons about it.

Starving a disease rids the body of the disease, your suggestions instead require feeding the disease, if not by individual choice how can your approach possibly rid us of this disease?

You are suggesting maintenance of the corruption provides more value than without. I disagree.

 

Taxes are just a small part of the of the gluttons edibles. It feasts on economic activity of all kinds. If you really want to starve it relieve yourself of it's currency altogether. You don't need to purchase services to thrive on this planet. The profit motive by it's nature stands to spite equitable exchange.

 

the only way the government can get any money what so ever is in the form of a tax.

Licenses and permits etc etc etc are variant forms of taxation.

Yeh its really a transaction tax.

We pay for permission to exchange goods with each other.

 

i'd say what we have going on right now, today, is how a democracy works.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/10/02/live_updates_shutdown_day_2.html

 

No, they print it also and propagate a fractional reserve system.

 

democracy is a scam! we are so posed to be a republic. we got scammed just like the Romans.
our money is illusionary created by debt . also all the fed taxes go to paying the interest on the national debt.

 

That too, is a tax, diminishing the value of your money.