What’s needed to stop an American dictatorship?

Trump's convicted criminal crony Roger Stone has called for Trump to declare martial law and seize power if he loses. I'd call that a definite move toward dictatorship. Roger Stone Calls For Trump To 'Declare Martial Law' To Seize Power If He Loses
And you think "Americans will never allow those who are not chosen to cause chaos." I hope you're right.

 

The laws in this country mean NOTHING to republicans!! NOTHING!! I don't doubt for a minute that this political situation is going from bad to worse to WORST!!!! He's narcissistic enough to actually do this!!

Let's hope the military leaders will take action, if necessary.

 

My question would be, where would the Trumpian supporters on these Forums be if push came to that shove? The Stone proposal is pretty extreme, but I can see Trump acting on it and the gutless wonder "patriots" in their MAGA hats doing nothing to stop it or even supporting it. Would the military obey that order? Either way, the fit will have hit the shan!

 

It's truly amazing that there are STILL people that revere this narcissist. I believe his cult members will follow right along with WHATEVER he says and does.

 

Trump's voters expect dictatorship numbers. No matter what evidence you show them they live in echo chambers and think the man is loved like a king. If you ask them America is full of racists just like them who hate education and true free speech. So of course in a free election he will get every real American's vote.

Don't believe me? Remember 2016 and how neither they nor he could accept the victory. They had to lie and exaggerate to make the victory seem special. He "won" the popular vote and had 10x the crowd as Obama

If he were to win with 55% of the vote a normal number it would be a "failed coupe by Democrats" and they will become violent. They expected left wing policies to end totally and they are upset that despite Trump being president America got more Democratic. Gay rights and gun laws are 2 areas that particularly upset them. Being gay is not an official mental ills like it was in the 1960's and they can't own nukes. Hell, some cities now outlaw Ar-15's the go to gun for militias. It's not like a A-r15 owner is obeying but on paper they can lose their home for owning it so they can't really talk about so they are not free.

The dial has ALWAYS moved left. All Republicans can ever do is slow down how fast it turns and they wish to end that. No matter what they see war as the solution. Democrats will just keep hanging around as long as they are alive.

You can count on Waco style events this November. Government buildings and public places were Democrats go are not safe.

 

Top general has already said they wouldn't...

 

Trud

This is so incorrect that it’s dishonest. The things we were discussing were not things that appear without warning they are things that are clear and obvious.

For example those who through no fault of their own are born into disadvantage are going to be disadvantaged and that with help that can be mitigated against.

LOL - That’s not paraphrasing it’s a complete re-write – and again an incredibly dishonest and dishonourable thing to do.

How is lying meant to strengthen your argument?

I mean lets go through it

Where did that come from, not from me it’s purely you – so what proof are you basing this on?

Whatever the social class the majority of people love their kids and try to do their best for them.

Your view are so often pure fiction – you seem to think you are scientific and better at analysing issues but actually you mainly pump out fairy tales based no your prejudices and bias that make it impossible for you to think objectively.

On numerous occasions people have asked you to back up what you state – you just refuse to do so.

You talk of been able to look at multiple alternatives but time and time again you are very black and white in your thinking either/or - lacking in nuance or understanding. Your thinking processes seem very simplistic.

To you anyone that might need help should not be given it because all such people are irresponsible, lazy, and drug addicts - simple– and it is impossible for you to see beyond that – you cannot accept that these are just normal people, fellow human beings that with some assistance can have long healthy and prosperous lives where they are able to fulfil their potential.

And your solutions are simplistic rather than empathy or understanding you’d prefer to put such innocent people in ‘containment camps’ done and dusted - simple

 

Trud

A majority

I mean actually most studies show that people with higher educational attainment lean to the left to some degree and that includes scientists

 

Trud

What do you mean – you say it is such narrow thinking but then go on to give a simplistic and narrow answer.

Can you not work that out for yourself?

Are you honestly saying you couldn’t work this out?

I have to do this stuff at work all the time, many other people do it regularly – but you can’t work it out?

Try looking up risk assessment

And another bizarre example – who is likely to invading the US?

Why are they invading and why would they invade knowing that the US has nukes?

Also many situations around the world are contained through diplomacy

As I say your thinking is too black and white - you can either shoot back or raise your arms

And yet another bizarre example, you talk of leftie fiction writers but you are the biggest example of a fiction writer on the forum LOL

I mean you do realise that tort underpins the whole neoliberal free market argument on deregulation don’t you?

 

Trud

But you have just written at length how you don’t want that – LOL I mean hell man you have said you’d like to lock up the disadvantaged in concentration camps. I suspect that would not be conducive to their health or prosperity.

We already have systems in place its called government; in many countries there are government departments that oversee healthcare, welfare, education and the environment.

It’s not pixie dust its normal governance

And yes legislation and laws are part of that.

Honestly could you not have worked that out for yourself?

But actually neoliberal right wing economic thinking has been very detrimental to the economies in places where it has been most followed like the UK and US. As well as favouring a few to the detriment of the majority.

But you have been arguing for a system where many people would go without food and shelter.

LOL honestly do you do any research – for example there are many detailed plans out there to bring in universal healthcare built upon differing model that already exist around the world.

Sorry but your methods of’ motivation’ seem to be based on Social Darwinist ideas of exploitative ‘work or starve’ and locking people up in containment camps.

How is that a vison of a better future?

The statement also seems to undermine your argument for a society base on voluntary giving that would involve little or no personal reward. You are saying why give to charity since there is no personal gain involved.

How is that a vison of a better future?

 

When criminals tamper with the ballot box, Democracy is in danger. Trump and the Republicans have done all they can to undermine American Democracy. They have suppressed poor voters, have intimidated voters, and have told their own to vote twice. In North Carolina and West Virginia they have altered ballots from democrat to Republican. In Iowa they have voted twice in two separate counties. In Colorado their party leaders have voted twice by forging their wife's signature on a second ballot, embezzled money, and held fund raisers for the Republican party out of the office of Secretary of State. In Georgia, the Republican Secretary of State purged over a million Black voters out of the list of registered voters. In Texas, college students were removed from the list of registered voters. In Indiana the power of the state police was used to intimidate an effort to register Black voters. Today, Colorado has filed a lawsuit to stop the United States Postal Service from sending mail which misleads voters. The head of the USPS is a donor and friend of Trump. The Republican party has done all it can to tamper with American Democracy and their actions rise to the level of crimes.

 

Turd is not too smart.

 

You forgot North Korea . Besides being "socialist' , the countries that you mention are also highly authoritarian or totalitarian. There have been occasional examples of socialism in relatively democratic societies--the U.K. under Atlee, France under Mitterand, etc. (By Socialism, I mean societies in which there is substantial nationalization of the means of economic production and/or distribution.) So democratic were they that the people voted them out.

There are other unfortunate societies we could talk about--Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Duterte's Philippines--where people, frightened of Socialists and the Other, turned their countries over to the rule of fascist thugs. It doesn't seem to have gone well for most of them. Duterte Is Turning Philippines Into A More Corrupt And Less Democratic State

I don't understand that. There are certainly instances in which I think I have a right to demand that you act on my behalf--for example, abiding by a mask mandate in the interest of public health. Since the U.S. government has the power to tax and spend for the general welfare, and state governments have the power to make legislation for the general welfare under their "police power", we, as citizens, have the right to require you to do your part in supporting public schools, roads, and yes, welfare.

Believe it or not, there are countries in the world with robust economies and yet safety nets--free university education and health care, care for the elderly, and welfare for those who would otherwise fall into poverty. They call them Scandanavian! More generally, social democracies, of which elements are found in other countries of western Europe and Canada.

Funny you should place so much emphasis on trade-offs and so little on striking acceptable balances. You present us with the grim dichotomy of unregulated drug companies versus no medicine, stagnant societies of freeloaders versus societies where it's everyone for himself/herself, and the devil take the hindmost. There seem to be other industrial countries on this planet that have been able to strike a balance. Public opinion polls indicate that the Scandanavians are the happiest people on earth, although by no means devoid of social problems. "It all boils down to analytic ability, the ability to make good tradeoffs between multiple alternatives.
Not lock onto some target goal, torpedoes be damned. Any fool can do that. And only a fool would."

Sounds like a lost draft of John Lennon's Imagine. I'd say it's not to late, but way too early for that. Our immediate priority needs to be keeping each other from our throats. If only we could restore the status quo ante of a few decades ago, when women and minorities were making progress but before "voodoo economics" created such gross income disparities between haves and have nots and the middle class was a thriving, viable social category in the life of this country. Back to a time when people gave high priority to the good of the country, and expected presidents to govern for the benefit of the whole country instead of a narrow voting bloc. Back to a time when political sociologist S.M. Lipset could write that the U.S. was a model of stable democracy because of widely shared consensus that losing an election wouldn't be the end of the world. Then we could move incrementally toward a more just, socially democratic order, in keeping with Rawls' maxim that all inequalities must be shown to benefit the least advantaged members of society. But that won't happen until something is done to repair the moral damage which the Tea Party, MAGA, the Koch brothers, and Fox and Friends inflicted on the country. Before we can have heaven on earth, humans will have to become a lot more like angels, which will take awhile, if it ever happens.

 

Unbelievable! Trump is talking about "negotiating" a third term!! Trump suggests he would 'negotiate' a third term as president because he is 'probably entitled' to it
Put this together with Post #502. Tell me there isn't a dictatorship coming to the U.S. soon!

 

Balbus-

And let me guess: you are for motherhood and against sin. What a bunch of vague, non-actionable words that as best I can tell serve only to make you feel good about yourself(and,possibly, by extension, disparage others). I doubt you have any reason to think that Trud or any other conservative disagrees those are desirable ends. FTR I too wish healthy prosperous lives to all. However, having a generalized good will to all is utterly useless as an actionable guide.

I would, however, temper such feel-good goals with the realization that the road to hell is paved with alleged good intentions. Moreover, I would cite another condition of humanity as being as important as the ones you site: at very least, I would consider it a pre-condition for the others. And that is freedom, a concept for which I sense you attach lessor, maybe little, importance.

In your reply you indicate the kind of future you would prefer. It would be a place where those deemed not worthy of life were terminated and such people already living presumably sterilised


I made no mention of a general termination of “those not deemed worthy of life”. In fact, while I specifically allowed for abortion of those severely afflicted, I specifically noted a different set of standards would apply once babies are born. Your rendition of my position is so reprehensibly removed from my words as to justify calling you a liar. Try honesty, sometime, sir.

Nonetheless, as a realist, one with a biological background, I keenly appreciate that our most precious natural resource lies within our genes and that we ill-serve future generations by burdening them with a degraded gene pool.

I also realize that among those born, there are those who, for medical reasons, should not reproduce, so yes, there are times I would favor sterilization (as I was, albeit once I had born as many children as hub and I were confident we could provide for in a way we wanted to).

It seems to me that your jejune mind has given zero consideration of these admittedly difficult matters, ones which no one I know is entirely at ease dealing with. It must be so nice to be able to luxuriate in your own sense of smug superiority while ignoring so many difficult matters. It is, however, in my mind at least, render you something of a fool whose concerns do not extend beyond those of his own time on earth.



A place where preventable ‘bad’ things are allowed to happen In what way is that a ‘better’ world and who do you think it benefits?

Well freedom does give you the right to go to hell in handbasket in your own way. I have the sense that you are not Christian. I am, and I believe the Almighty endowed us with the freedom to choose. And that goes not only for life here on earth, but also in the hereafter.

Moreover, the only way you can prevent “bad things from happening” is by acting forcibly to prevent people from making their own decisions (I note again, my entire world view in this regard is limited to those one would consider adults). People will make unwise decisions. Made a few myself in this world, and continually deal with a (non-adult) family member who in some way follows in my footsteps.

Clearly, among your lauded goals, the freedom, in adulthood, to choose is not a value to you. But there is a corollary: you take responsibility for your actions. I sense in your world, where the overweaning power of the state would be used in some way to limit people from making “unwise” decisions about their own lives (but that do not infringe on the rights of others), you then turn around and seek to make me pay for the consequences of those decisions.

A classic example might be the use of recreational drugs by adults. While I have compassion for people who get in trouble with them, I may or may not choose to assist them in either recovery or maintenance (my interest in the latter is, I admit, right about zero). You, undoubtedly, think you have the right to demand- and it can come down to doing so at gunpoint- that I pay for the mistakes of such people. I am here to say you have no such right.

And that leads to my final point. It’s clear through your various utterances that you see the road to earthly salvation as coming from the coercive power of the state. Freedom demands we minimize the power of such coercive instruments. Of my own accord, I will assist those in need in ways I can, within the framework of my own values. But once I am obliged to do so by a coercive power, I am rendered, in part, at least, a slave to that person. Well my momma didn’t raise no slave.

You seem to me to think of yourself as someone with genuinely interesting ideas, yet you show no evidence of a willingness even to consider the complex moral questions I raise. Once again, but with more confidence in my assessment, I note that you appear to me to possess a rather shallow mind.

 

Well Trump may think he can "negotiate" such a thing (another "deal" to him, perhaps). But short of a constitutional amendment, it ain't gonna happen. So you can rest easy. So get real: the USA is in no danger of becoming a dictatorship, at least not one ruled by Donald Trump.

 

I'll rest easy when he leaves the White House.

 

Do you think that's an intelligible statement? What is it you are trying to say? If we hate something we see as evil we choose it? Doesn't make much sense, does it?

 

Roger Stone just told Alex Jones that if Trump lost the election he should invoke martial law and confiscate Nevada's ballots.

 

Just thought of something. Trump is a narcissist, needs for people to like him. Well Mr. Trump I would like you a lot better if you were no longer President. We all need to tell him that to make him step down.

After he loses the election we can stop pretending we like him. Yes I'm stoned and a little drunk as I'm typing this.