Was Aileen Wuornos Really A "Monster"?

I have to agree with you there, lots HAVE been through worse and of course do NOT kill. Aileen was a murderess and innocent people got killed at her hands and that can not be denied. But, although I can't speak for PoetDude39 100% I don't think, in my opinion, he was at all suggesting that murder is the normal reaction to 'a rough life' more just trying to look deeper into what might trigger someone to murder. Rather than to jump straight on the band wagon and settle for the most easy and 'comfatable' conclusion that 'oh, yes, she must have been born a monster...' Also, I believe, his point was that there were clearly MANY elements in her life (her up bringing being just one of them....) and mental illness was clearly another and quite some more in addition, all as a combination was a fatal mix that lead her to become a murderess. That's not to say that I (or PoetDude39 Im sure...) are making excuses for her OBVIOUS wrong doings. She did of course kill people and that is not something that can be brushed under the carpet with a '...poor love had a hard life...' line. I think he was just trying to look a little deeper into the circumstances that could take a person that far. I could be wrong but that is what I took from it, from what he said.

 

Sorry, but you are pretty much just repeating what most people are saying about her. And I'm not buying it. It's just too simplistic for comfort. If this is just about "weakness" (huh?), then are you actually trying to suggest she was not mentally ill? That she was not raped multiple times? That she was not almost killed herself by the first john she shot in self-defense? That she was not manipulated big time by her deceptive lover? In addition to the horrendous childhood she was subjected to.

Again, it's a fatal combination. So I fail to see why you would want to merely fixate on her bad childhood, and completely disregard everything that happened after that. It's a bit more complicated than that. But then again, if you want to believe Aileen Wuornos is just some big bad monster, and the world (which very much helped to form her) won't ever see the likes of her again, I guess that must be a very comforting thought. And leaves the door wide open for another tragedy like this to play itself out in the future. And more lives will be lost. Why not come to a deeper understanding now, and work on preventing violent situations like this from happening again? That's the whole point of this post.

Peace,

PD

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks again for all your insightful words.

Peace,

PD

 

People choose to be a positive or negative force, she chose to be a prostitute, she continued to put herself in bad situations and continued to choose to be a negative force, it takes strength of character to choose to be a positive force, she didn't have it, regardless of bad childhood whatever she could have been better as a human being, she wasn't she chose what she was, she made the descisions, explaining it away is bullshit, if a bad life is an excuse to kill people than everyone who was cranked out of auschwitz should be serving life terms in prison because all of them would have the same tissue paper excuse as this disgusting creature who chose to be weak, who would not choose the route of real effort and work.

 

Who's to say she didn't TRY to become a better person??
And how do you know that some people from concentration camps didn't choose to be negative forces as well? I mean, I totally agree with you in saying that it takes a lot of strength to choose to be a postive force. But you have to understand that situations are different for everyone...
Most people who have fucked up lives, don't CHOOSE to have fucked up lives. Do you think she, along with many many other women, just decided out of nowhere to become a prostitute? Of course not. She became a prostitute because she probably believed she could not do any better, especially with the life she was living. This is the same thinking that stereotypes homeless people as lazy, ignorant people who could EASILY get jobs if they tried. In reality, it is very difficult for someone to get a job at McDonald's if they have no home address, for example. I truly do not believe she enjoyed selling her body to strange men. In fact, I think she developed a hatred for men because of the horrible experiences she faced with them. (Which is probably why she fell in love with a female.)
Selby was the one individual that Aileen loved more than anything, and was willing to do anything for. Selby really was the only thing that made Aileen happy. Unfortunately, Selby did not feel the same for Aileen and instead, how PoetDude39 said, manipulated Aileen. She may not have held a gun to her head or anything, but Aileen could just not have "walked away" from this situation. Aileen killed because she felt she could get away with it (like most criminals think). Do you think a person living such a life would actually think of long term consequences? No, she only did what she could to make ends meet, which is how many poor people think.
And I have to agree with PoetDude39, in saying that society is what molds people. It may sound like a weak, wimpy-ass statement, but I believe it is very true. It molds people espeically like Aileen. Look at the Columbine High School killers. What caused them to go on such a rampage? Could it be the constant harrassment and torment they faced at school everyday by their fellow classmates? Even ficitional stories like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein show us what society can do to an individual. Frankenstein's creation was labeled a monster primarily based upon his outer appearance. It tried it's hardest to fit into a society that refused to accept it, and which in fact, excluded and shunned it. That society molded it into the hateful and revengeful "monster" that it ended up becoming. As much as we are blind to it, it is us (society) that is our own worst enemy. (And when I say "US" i am speaking in general terms, not including anyone specific).
I sympathize for her victims and their families. No one deserves to die the ways they did. Her johns were probably good people (although the fact that they were even seeing a prostitute in the first place makes me wonder...) Aileen Wuornos was most likely far from innocent, but I don't think she deserved the death penalty. She was probably far from being a good person, but in my point of view, she doesn't deserve to be called a monster.

 

The kids at columbine are a beautiful example of how we have choices.... it's funny how you mention them because they offer us proof

The creators of south park went to that same school, faced that same torment, but did they go, get grand daddies guns and kill all the jocks? no they didn't, they chose to channel that energy elsewhere, the two who shot up that school were weak, they used the excuses that are given to people every day for bad behavior every day, told that these excuses were okay, and they took their excuses too far, much like your pet serial killer


What if I asked if tim mcveigh was a monster, He percieved mistreatment

How about the feilds medal winner who became the unabomber ted kaszynsky? he committed his crimes for a reason

Everyone who commits crimes, of any type has a reason, some okay, you stole to feed your family, but killing people, if I went out, chose to just let go of all the frustration and anger I feel at society and shoot up my local city hall would I be right Fuck No!

You have to ask truly can we afford to ask some of these questions, society does swing to the left until it collapses, how far left do you want it to go this time? I want to die in a world where murder is still not an okay thing, that alright with you, not to politically incorrect is it? <note this thing sucks at biting sarcasm so that was in the end of it>

if we do not repress some of our animalistic instincts we are monsters, we are animals that can plan, think and kill incredibly efieciently, animals that kill are killed, there is rarely an outpouring of grief when a german shephard mauls a two year old screaming and crying to death and is put down, but when a rapist who brutally murders his victims and keeps them in his freezer for months is executed people ask if it is ethical to kill them, investigate those priorities, for the man is a far more brutal killer, and he knows what he is doing and sometimes gets joy from it.

 

You bring up excellent points, Quest.
About Columbine, it was tragic and should not have happened, however I believe it was inevitable. It's wonderful that Matt Stone and Trey Parker were able to prevail by launching themselves to success with South Park, but I don't think it would have been so easy for the Columbine killers to get their vengence by creating a Mr. Hanky character. I'm sure they felt trapped, no where to turn. I mean, if i were one of those kids I sure as hell would rather be creating cartoon characters than shooting up the school. But, I really can't speak for them and I'm sure they must have felt so alone and isolated to have killed and committed suicide and all I can say is that I feel for them...

Now, I guess I should have clarified that I am not defending all serial killers when I previously posted. I was speaking in behalf of Wuornos. There are sick people out there who deserve to fry. McVeigh killed old people and babies out of pure anger. Yes, that is sick. And there are many others out there like him.
But, Wuornos did not go killing random people out of nowhere. It's not like she sodimized them, chopped them up, kept them in a freezer to later eat them. Though what she did was not right, (after all, murder to me is not right and I too would love to live in a world where murder is still not okay) To me, she was not a malicious, sick individual. I believe she was confused and desperate... and that may be YOUR definition of weak. And I completely understand that. I also consider that weak behavior. But I still defend her in saying that I do not believe she was a monster and should not be labeled as one either... of course, i'm not speaking for all other serial killers, just wuornos.

 

she killed people, she killed them all in a similar way, she KILLED people,

if I feel trapped, trapped enough to kill someone I'm going to avoid like plague the situation that caused me to feel that way, she didn't, she could have gotten a damned job with the parks department maintaining trails (without an address btw) for the love of god, And I even think she was running around befor the executive order that forbid noncitizens from picking up government jobs (on a federal level I think) she was human, she could think and she still did it, she still didn't really look for alternatives, shit she could have become a migrant worker, she could have done a shit load of things other than selling her body, putting herself in a situation where she felt she needed to kill someone, and actually carrying out the act


how bout this, we give her the first one a freebie, so we are assuming now that she didn't know before the first guy that there would be any chance of her killing anyone, how bout that


SHE STILL KILLED AGAIN, she still CHOSE to put herself in a situation that in all reality she had a responsibility to herself and humanity to get herself out of, a situation she knew she had killed in, a situation she knew had potential to turn into death for her or someone else,

She chose to keep doing it

She chose to kill more people

her brain everytime she supposedly was in danger gave her an additional choice, fight or flight, she chose fight

She was a monster, if this was anything other than the poor unhappy prostitute with a shitty life this wouldn't be an issue, if some rich guy killed people for the same reasons (modified for the rich guy parameter of course) she did, it wouldn't be an issue

Defense of ones own self or anothers person are the only viable reasons for killing, anything else is murder

murder by a human is wrong, and putting oneself in a situation where one might even have a decent probability (I'm not talking going to the store I'm talking intentionally putting oneself or others) in harms way is the same as premeditation, she planned these mens murders as surely as if she had known them each for twenty years, she simply needed an excuse to take her emotional baggage out on the bastards who were fucking around on their wives

 

You seem to have an awful lot of hostility spilling out of you all of a sudden. I'm not sure I know what to make of that. But I'll go ahead and play your clueless game. And continue being the Devil's *cough* advocate for your sake.

So you conveniently argue that killing is ALWAYS wrong, huh? And only *the weak* "choose" to harm innocent people. Instead of being a positive force in this life. And that petty little things like rape, incest, homelessness, and mental illness can not possibly influence how a person thinks and acts. Okay, (and this point was brought up in the movie) what about all the innocent civilians (many of them women and children) in other countries that have been killed by American soldiers? Do you hold George Bush responsible for that?

I mean, he did *choose* to send our men and women off to war. Knowing full well that many people were going to die. Including innocent civilians. So doesn't that make him totally weak? Some people might even go so far as to call him a serial killer. It's really not that much of a stretch. Except unlike Aileen, Bush never has been abandoned by his family, homeless for most of his life, raped multiple times, and battling mental illness (even though I often wonder about the insane state of his greedy little mind). So you call that being a positive force in this life? Hello? Then isn't George Bush (by your own narrow logic) as *weak* as they come?

In addition, how many mentally ill Americans have lost their lives (many dying right here on the streets) since Bush so callously stripped them of their housing and medical needs? Ever heard of subsidized housing and Medicaid before? And do you know that Bush pretty much has decided that the sick and poor in this country are unworthy of any true help? And that many American citizens have died (and continue to die) as a result? So do you call that being a positive force? And why did he *choose* to destroy so many lives? By your own clueless logic, Dubya is a much weaker, much more destructive force than the likes of somebody like Aileen Wuornos. So congrats big time. I guess it looks like you got your very own *pet serial killer* to defend and praise to the rafters. Thanks for helping me to see all this in a brand new (highly distorted) light.

Peace,

PD

 

movie wasn't 100% factual, was far from, Bush is weak, I am not at all a bush fan I would have had gore elected, bush is weak for choosing to be evil, most politicians are weak because either
1. you have to sacrifice your actual beliefs (bush did, this christian b.s. is rove manufactured to the wall) to get elected in most cases, you have to sway w\ the winds, most politicians are weak, george bush is especially weak because he is willing to do anything, absolutly anything be it evil immoral, despicable, wrong or even harmful to any human being on this earth to achieve his objectives

pride and ambition are weaknesses

2. or A politician may be weak because they have fallen before the grand power of special interests There are hundreds (thousands through history) who fit this example

regardless of what happens to someone (your examples rape incest etc) the human soul is capable of overcoming, Have you read the book a child called it? you should, it would really be interesting for you, interestingly enough it's a true story, through history human beings have overcome every thing that can even be imagined, nero burnt christians to light his parties "to save oil" Giles corey wouldn't admit to being a satanist or a witch even as every bone (and that is not as often is a hyperbole) in his body was broken in the salem witch trials, The spanish inquisition, heard of that? The Human is a resiliant creature, when one chooses to do something wrong (And you damn well know {unless you're more deluded than I think...} that every human on this earth has a sense of right and wrong, some may not care, but they know)

The fact that someone can draw the line between one murder and another scares me, this woman was not defending herself, she never said she percieved her murders as defense, she killed these people because she chose to


We all have choices every day, Some make the correct one, the hard one to make, the moral one, not to lie, not to steal for the thrill of it, not to kill that guy who really pissed you off, the people who don't make the right choices metamorphose into monsters.

I read grendal, I know that there are reasons to kill, but they are few, and this woman never clamed to have any of them

You know there was a really interesting piece on this movie on pbs after the movie came out, that may also drop some scales...

 

I appreciate what you are trying to do. But I think we are only wasting our time and energy on Quest_Techie. He's already decided that Aileen is a monster. Period. And that rape, incest, homelessness, and mental illness are merely *weak* excuses for going over the edge. Also, women *choose* prostitution as a way of life (according to his bent wisdom). I mean, it must be so much fun to be degraded for a few bucks on a daily basis, and risk rape and death every time you step into an unknown car. *rolling my eyes* And nothing we say is gonna change that. However, you are more than welcome to keep on trying (if you like). You state Aileen's case very honestly and well.

Peace,

PD

 

Now that's a bit of a silly thing to say, and I think you probably know it too! There is NOT one person on this tread who is suggesting 'murder is an ok thing' as you put it!! I want to die in a world where murder simply doesn't happen at all!! So sure, I agree whole heartedly with you that what Aileen (and sadly many before her and many after her....and so the evil cycle continues....) was wrong! VERY, VERY, WRONG! But we are just trying to investigate the pychology behind what makes a human kill other humans, NOT justifying it!! I think you knew that too. A lot of your points were good strong points which supported very well what you were trying to get across, so why go and say something so obviously silly like that??? It's pretty clear NO ONE is endorsing murder and inparticular the murders Aileen committed!!!

 

I know that. And you know that. And maybe even a few more silent people reading this thread know that. But it is very convenient for him to make it sound like we are justifying murder. When all we are trying to do is understand what makes a person kill.

Peace,

PD

 

Quest_Techie, one last point, you seem to think that aside from all the other shit Aileen was supjected to in her shitty life that multipule violent rape is a 'weak' excuse for what she turned to doing. Well, now here is me telling you secrets about me (which I am happy to to get a message across) but doesn't exsactly fill me joy to talk about, but I was violently raped when I was 17yrs old. It happened to me just once. That, if you'll pardon the lang, fucked my head up royally!!! I am NOT condoning what Aileen did, but lordy, I got to tell you if I went though, what I did when I was 17, over and over and over again I CAN hand on heart say that I am SURE I WOULD have such a strong and passionate hate for probably ALL men. And could you really blame me or condem me for that????? (as it happens I of course DON'T hate men, I have been lucky enough to have not had to be subjected to 'it' time and time again. And I have had the benefit of all the right support, which Aileen didn't, family, friends, counselling....but it STILL effects me now. So just think about what you're saying, rape is the most degrading, fucking scary, deminishing, emotional/spiritual strength shattering, self worth robbing, EVIL crimes that can be commited....) So, although I still don't condone what Aileen did, I do not think it is a 'weak' excuse!!!!!!

Ps. I don't think it was Aileen that was the monster. No. It's rapist scum who are the monsters.

 

The thing is, not only do we not know what "causes" serial killers to do what the do, there are myriad reasons, also, most "problem children" are not indentified early enough. Being a psychopath,a as a label, is something that is very difficult for a psychologist to put on a child. Yet, we know these people, whether born or made, are more likely to do things without regard to others. "Early Intervention" is too hit or miss. I don't know if we will ever be able to "prevent" people like Aileen, or any other killer from becoming what they were.

Oddly enough, even though girls are raped and sexually assaulted in childhood much more than boys, (so thus have more reason to be angry) boys are more likely to grow up to be killers. There is almost a filter which prevents most, (but of course not all) womyn from killing others. Most womyn who kill DO come from horrible abuse backgrounds, while male killers are a mixed bag, some were abused, some had normal childhoods. We really don't know what makes people cross the line and kill an other human.

 

You're asking if she's a monster, that's the title isn't it? well someone who kills for a reason other than defense of self or others is a monster period.

You try to dress it up, say she wasn't a monster for xy and z reasons, tough shit, if I killed one of your family members I'd be a fucking monster, there is not a damned thing you can do to dress it up.

She chose CHOSE to kill these people, psycologival evaluations were done of her when she waived her appeals, she wasn't crazy so what excuse does she have (and that's what you are giving her excuses)



NONE! not a single one, yeah she had a tough life, I know at least one person who has had a worse childhood than this creature did, and she hasn't started killing people yet, she got a 4.0 in high school, so really what causes me to believe any of these excuses are valid

I brought up the dog Brutually mauling the two year old example before, what about that setting that directly against wournous, you have a rotweiler, it was abuse horribly by it's owners, one day it gets out and mauls seven people


is that rotweiler a monster?

it didn't even have intent, dogs don't have an ego, superego or id, they don't have a subconcious, hell hard core christians would argue they don't even have a soul

but it killed seven people, it lashed out against something

but she killed

KILLED, Ended Made it so that seven families had an absence, a hole.


Blame it on society as much as you fucking want, but she still had her choices, she still made them, of course I'm wasting my time because all your minds are already made up.

 

You just keep on repeating the same tired old crap over and over again. Instead of listening to a single word (a lot of it rather compelling) that anybody has said on this thread. If you honestly believe that a person is not influenced by his/her environment, and that Aileen was a poster child for perfect mental health (you keep talking about how she was not mentally ill AT ALL, because that serves your prejudiced purpose oh so well, huh?), then why even bother to read the entire thread? Just say: Aileen was an evil monster, and the world is much better off without her. Period. Instead of trying to justify the bitterness you carry in your own heart.

Yes, I asked if Aileen was a monster (in this thread's title). Because I was hoping to find a few people to look at both sides of this story. Somebody that does not have so much disgust (as you seem to have. Do you honestly believe women "choose" to be degraded?) for street people and prostitutes, and might actually see them as human beings. And be willing to have a little bit of understanding and compassion for a person as obviously wretched and disturbed as Aileen was. I mean, come on now. What's up with the silly dog comparison? But she is not even human to somebody like you. Just some evil creature or something, huh? Since you claim to know a thing or two about psychology, that's really a bit rich.

Besides, Aileen was put to death by the state of Florida. You do understand that? So I fail to see how you think her fate was much better than that of some crazed dog being put down for attacking people. So she's a monster to somebody like you. Cool. You're not alone in your harsh judgement. Most people would agree with you. But there are a few of us that can feel a little sympathy for her, and wish that there could be more services and help for disturbed people in this world before they become such a threat to us all. Instead of just burying our heads in the sand, and making the mistake of thinking this kind of thing can never happen again. Aileen Wuornos was not America's first female serial killer (as the media often claimed). There were others before her. And sadly, given the apathetic approach to helping the mentally ill and desperately poor in our country, she will not be the last. Thank God for state sanctioned lethal injections, right? *your sarcasm is contagious*

Peace,

PD

 

Actually, I recall reading something a few years ago about an American psychiatrist that was doing a study on children and young people (10-16 years old) that were already exhibiting sociopathic tendencies (torturing and killing animals, forever stealing things from parents and peers, habitual violent outbursts, and not ever feeling any remorse, etc). I think the idea was to offer therapy and even meds to some of the most disturbed ones, and then wait and see if their behaviors and thoughts became more stable over time. And if they could somehow be conditioned to know the difference between right and wrong, and actually learn to feel remorse for their actions. Not exactly a conventional approach. Especially given most experts believe a sociopath cannot be "cured." Maybe not. But isn't treating the "symptoms" with therapy and meds (before the person becomes an adult, and seriously harms anybody) better than the alternative? Many lives could be saved. And the world might become a much safer place for us all.

Peace,

PD

 

It is a good idea to try. And I think this program will at least help a few. I do think starting at 10 is way too old, but I don't know if these children can be identified much younger than this. Many times parents who may encourage these behaviors do everything they can to ESCAPE detection, so that harms early intervention even more. Also, some parents just don't know that if 7 year old Johnny is torturing squirrels, this is a harbringer of very bad things to come.

 

Aileen killed people in cold blood. She's a monster in my book.

You could ramble on and on for all eternity that the reasons that caused her to murder people were or were not her fault...but that doesnt lessen or negate the fact that several people were brutally killed.


I dont care if you were abused by your parents or your animal-killing tendancies ignored, that doesnt give you the right to kill people.

She was found sane and competant. The murders were premeditated as she set up her victims for the kill.

How about people quit arguing over whether or not Aileen was "bad" and focus on the fact that she murdered people that had nothing to do with her upbringing or life at all until she solicited them into the hotel rooms.

Hotdamn, a hooker murders a john and people liken her to the victim of gang-rape who kills her attackers. So not the same and dont even try to compare them.