Vatican convenes summit to fight the "threat" of alternative faiths!

Ellis, the article you posted stunned me.

I searched a little deeper and came up with more of the actual article, which shows how concerned the Vatican really is about Catholics/Christians who are becoming more and more disillusioned about their faith, thereby, turning to alternative religions for more answers to "the meaning of life" and how we are all connected.....questions I think we all have about our own existence.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=531952

Sounds like a modern day "inquisition" I hope it never comes to this again. Maybe it won't in our lifetime, but it sounds almost like the Vatican is trying to lay the groundwork for something in the future. God help us all....

 

Wow, that article is damn near scary! What's worse, is they don't even see the obvious hypocrisy in their own words. Are they that arrogant? Do they think anyone is that stupid? Do they actually believe they are following Christ?!?!?! Just the presence of king capitalism in the vatican means they're serving another master.

The crazy part is, I keep wondering how they expect me to believe that the Pope still enunciates coherent sentences!?!?! I haven't seen him awake and alert for a couple of years now. I guess he only speaks when there are no cameras around!

 

These were pointed out to me as "proof" from the Church of Rome, that the Church of Rome is not the Whore of Babylon in Revelations. Still yet even scarier, the way this institution's thinking policy operates.

http://www.catholic.com/library/hunting_the_whore_of_babylon.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp

 

You know I never read Hunt's book which drew parrallels between the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the whore of babylon. I just came to those conclusions on my own, which began after I read about being draped in Scarlet and Purple which are used throughout the religion. I'll have to look into the book!

 

I came to my conclusion in the same way. I have been cracking the code of revelations for years. Only lately have I been making headway (when I learned to read the bible un-literally).

I have been debating about the whore of babylon thing with a catholic on another forum. He keeps giving me links to his rebuttals, but they are all written by the Church, and none points to any scripture, and they go round and round. I almost laugh. How can I take a valid defense from the defendant themself, so obviously practiced in preventative damage control!

 

What exactly does it mean to read the bible unliterally? There are things that are in the bible that are figurative (Jesus said I am the door, the vine ...) Ok so jesus is not exactly a big rectangular piece of wood that we open to get in or out of a place, and he is not a long piece of plant matter that likes to climb fences. Is this what you are talking about or are you speaking of something deeper. Sometimes I read the old testament and the prophets and Literaly I can hear them speaking of nations and peoples of the anchient time but it strikes me in a more personal way. The words speak directly to me about spiritual realities that exist now. The scripture speaks of things such as "Jacob my servant" and though I know he had a servant named Jacob I feel he is speaking of me. Yes sometimes the scriptures become very personal to me in a way that is hard to describe. All the things that are spoken of anchient people and times speak of me and these times. But they change One section of scripture will seem like bad news at one time and good news at another.

I wonder if you read the scriptures the same way? Do you ever feel like the bible was written to you spicifically?

Isa 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou [that] didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou [that] didst not travail with child: for more [are] the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

Isa 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

Isa 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Isa 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Isa 54:9 For this [is as] the waters of Noah unto me: for [as] I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, [and] not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

Isa 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

Isa 54:13 And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; and great [shall be] the peace of thy children.

Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, [but] not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue [that] shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This [is] the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness [is] of me, saith the LORD.

 

Unliterally = NOT literally. LOL

Much of the bible (including creation in genesis and revalation in my opinion) are just parables. Enbedded in them is information, but they are not meant to be taken literally. ie: A seven headed monster is not going to come and eat us up.

 

Every time I read these anti Catholic threads I get two main feelings. My first one is of course, anger, anger about the ignorance and stupidity. But then it sort of turns into a comedic situation for me, when people start spouting off all of this misinformation about the Catholic Church. It's pathetic.

"THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WANTS TO ERADICATE NEW AGE!"--no they do not, they just want to keep people grounded in the church and develop new methods to teach about church doctrine and Christ better. Chill the fuck out.


"THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HELPED THE NAZIS and IGNORED THE JEWS BLAH BLAH BLAH"---well no, they did not do any such thing. The Church is on record of speaking out against Hitler multiple times, and gave refuge to Jews accross Europe.

Of course I cannot address everything that has been incorrectly stated here, just thought I'd mention that people need to start researching things before they speak of them as fact.

 

Then you don't see the resemblance betwee one world religion that will be imposed during the reign of the antichrist, and the pushing of interfaithism of the Catholic church?

Hmm, I don't see how I can be misinformed when I attended a Catholic church and it's school for years. I've read all of the stories about limbo, and hail marys and other things inbedded in the catholic religion that hardly pertain to the bible. For example, I am amused how the idea of limbo was actually taught to me in grade school when Emperor Constantine admitted that this spiritual waiting place between Heaven and Hell was created to get more money out of church members.

I am amused how God requires ten percent tithings and the Catholic church demands twenty percent from it's members. God's word commands the ten percent, and anything else given is to be of ones own personal offering. It's sad when the church has to pass around a collection plate twice.

I also find it amusing that the pope gets to pick and choose those for , "sainthood". Obviously, a "saint", is a human. God's first commandment says, "Thou shall have no other God's". Praying to saints is a waste of breath. You cannot come to God through ANY other way but through the name of of Jesus. Not saint David, or saint so and so. As I have said before, same with Mary. Does a saint have the power of forgiveness? Did Mary die on the cross. No, Jesus did, so when you pray, so why would you pray to anyone else?

As far as confession, Jesus did not say talk to an old guy in a robe about your sin. He said confess them to the father, that you may be forgiven. Forgiveness comes through prayer and sorrow, and determination not to continue the sin, not tossing out a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers. Has the catholic church not read the verse on vain repetition? Our Father is actually a guideline for prayer. Thanking God, praising him, blessing the food, asking for forgiveness for our sins against him and others, asking that his will be done in our lives, and asking for strength against temptation. He didn't say for us to repeat the same words over and over.

The Catholic church believes that Jesus is coming back. That is great, he is, but do they teach their members what to expect? What to look for? No... It wasn't until I began to attend a Christian school that I even knew what the mark of the beast was. Infact, the church didn't even recommend that we bring our Bibles, or read them during chatecism. That is interesting. We weren't going over verses and explaining their meaning, we were just going over these man made rules in the Catholic faith. A church of God should ALWAYS want you to bring your bible and read along.

Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be baptized and you shall be filled with the holy spirit". hmmm, when I was an infant, what concept did I have of repentance? NONE! My parents can't repent for me, I am the only one who can repent. What examples do we have of babies repenting and being baptized in the Bible? There are none, because every single example of someone being baptized in the bible shows that they were submerged completely in water after repentance, in the name of Jesus. I mean sure, it's convenient to sprinkle a bit of water on a baby's head, but since when does convenience get you to the kingdom of Heaven?

Several verses cover the infilling of the holy spirit (spirit of God) and how it happens. God said that his people would speak with new tongues. The Catholic church claims that Peter is the rock, well, why is it that they have strayed so far from Peter's own writings on baptism and the holy spirit?

Knowing what I know now, I can see the holes that were taught to me in my youth at the Catholic church.

 

No, that type of anti Catholic trash has been used since the Reformation.

I think it's funny you don't even know what that waiting place is called: Purgatory? Yeah, it's in the bible, there are over a dozen passages that hint or imply a place such as it, it all comes down to interpretation. Purgatory is NOT a bad place, it's a soul-cleansing place. No one can die sinless, and it only makes sense that those sins need to be cleansed in order to enter heaven pure.

That is bullshit, and I dare you to prove it. I was taught in Catholic school/CCD/Church that you give what you can and feel you can give, I have NEVER heard the Vatican proclaim 20%--but we shall see if you can back that up. Oh, and that collection bin going around a second time is mainly for charity work, but nice try.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Do you even know what the standards are to become a saint?! The Pope does not just give out the title "Saint" to anyone, that is your first mistake. Secondly, we pray to saints and we ask them to pray for us. They are not gods, you are correct, but we have never claimed them to be at all. And if you have ever asked your mother or father to pray for you, or you have told someone you will pray for them, you are a hypocrite.

It is not a waste of breath at all. If I told you I would pray for you, would that be a waste of breath? Your thinking is so linear. We do not worship Mary or the saints. We ask them to pray for us--The Apostoles did, the Early Church fathers did as well, and I will take their word over yours ANY day.

I was expecting you to be bible literate, but apparently I was wrong. I believe Christ told the 12, "Forgive others in my name"? And aren't you the one that is supposed to take the bible, "Literally?"

You actually have the audacity to sit there and critisize our saying of the Lord's Prayer, or a Hail Mary? Do you have anything better to bitch about?

Yes, I was. We read revelation along with the gospels numerous times in my Catholic School.

Well now that I know what I am dealing with (you beleiving Catholics are not Christians) I don't have to take your intellect or responses too seriously.

Please shut up. You are possibly the biggest bullshitter on here. OUR GRADES IN RELIGION CLASS WERE MARKED DOWN IF WE DID NOT BRING OUR BIBLES. LOL...oh my god, since you maybe attended a crappy Catholic school--heck, ALL OF THEM MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT!?

First let me ask you if you are going to gripe at the Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant sects that baptize their infants?

Secondly, again, your bible is different than mine. Mine reads:
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)." For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).

 

Funny, it's being taught right now

I've known people who are sent little collection evelopes from their former church (which is amusing in itself that a church you don't even attend anymore would ask you for your money) for twenty percent of their income.

Your asking people in Heaven who cannot hear you to pray for you when you can ask God himself? "And all of the saints, hear our prayers". "What the standards are to become a saint". Can you show me the rules and specific on "How to become a Saint", in the Bible. Because according to Jesus's teachings, I don't see these rules. I know that vatican has these rules because they are MAN made.

You hear physically, you can interceed for me. Do you honestly think that they can hear your prayers? I don't think I have read any passage that says that those who have passed can pass your message on to God, when you can have direct contact with himself yourself. Praying for someone is different, and there is such that as intercession, but someone who is alive is praying for you. Not to mention that fact that, you don't know who is going to Heaven and who is not. Man makes saints by HIS standards. God does not have a formula for a saint in his word.



Yes, and until the age of ten I had no clue what the mark of the beast was because it was never explained in my catholic school

Where is hail mary in the bible? I don't remember Jesus preaching this at all, do you? I don't know about you, but I follow the teachings that Jesus gave me in his word. I don't follow things that man makes up.

Maybe that is because according to another member on here, we are taught differently. My catholic school and church never went over revelation. All they say is, "We know Christ is coming back". There was no preparation. No warnings. Even after shortly attending the catholic church after grade school, having to learn about revelation from a Christian school, there was no talk of the end times. No mention of any of it. Never, at any Catholic church I have attended, was there ever a message on Revelation.

I was never told to bring my bible to school. All we needed to bring was the catholic book of so called truth. The bible was never read out of, only their special little books. No I cannot speak for the churches in your country, but I have attended several catholic churches in the states in my lifetime that were all based on their own teachings and traditions.

And again I will ask you to show me where there is any evidence of a child being baptized in the bible? Most places won't even baptize young children because they don't understand the concept of repenting for sin. Baptism is for the remission of sins. If children do not understand that the whole point of baptism is to be washed clean of sin, then there is no point in baptising them until they can comprehend that. Baptisim without forgiveness of sin, without YOU yourself, being sorry of your sin, and repenting it to Christ, is just getting wet. I've attended a Lutheran high school and I don't remember anything being mentioned on baptism of children there. But even so, both the Lutheran and the Christian religions pointed out things that the Catholic churches and schools I have attended, NEVER made mention of. I'm not sure how a church can claim to be a church of Christ, and not teach baptism based on John the Baptist.

Yes, and look up and verse 4... "All of them were filled with the holy spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them". When you have the holy ghost, you speak in tongues. Isaiah 28:11 "Very well, with foreign lips and strange tongues".... That is how you know you have the holy spirit. The catholic church seems to think that just by saying you believe in God, then you are filled with his spirit, which, by reading the verses above, we say that is not the case. I have never seen one single catholic church here make mention of tongues. My family, and other catholics I know, look at me strange when I mention this because they do not teach it here. Once again, I hear that it is different in other parts of the country, but I have yet to see a catholic church here that emphasizes Jesus's words in when he said in John 3:5, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom unless he is born of the water and the spirit". Yes, the promise is to everyone. It's God's will for people to repent, be baptized, and be filled with his spirit. If it wasn't, then it would not have been spoke of in his Word. But notice the, "and", conjoining the two. "Repent and be baptized AND you shall recieve the gift of the holy spirit. So, Jesus having said this,and gave it to us as a command in John, then why does the catholic church not teach this message. My grandmother was raised Catholic, been in the church seventy plus years. She didn't know what the infilling of the holy spirit was.

 

It's uneducated, false, and bigoted. I think the funny part is real people with actual brains buy into that nonsense.

An individual church might ask for extra money/2nd collection for funding the church building, expanding it, building rec centers/schools, for mission work here or abroad, charity or somthing along those lines. The Vatican has NEVER instructed members to give 20% of their income, and you have yet to prove they do. You have also yet to name a specific church that instructs that, which shows how much you really are bullshitting the rest of us on here.

How do you know they can't hear us? They are alive in heaven are they not?

SO WHAT?! Just becasue it is not in the bible? Christ never said the bible was the ultimate authority, NEVER. Christianity and it's traditions exsisted long before the bible was officially cannonized at the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD. The bible doesn't tell you how to train a dog either Epiphany, are you not going to train your dog becasue it's not specifically in the bible? Once again, traditions have been passed down by not only the bible, but the early church fathers as well, and as I said before I will take the teachings of the early church fathers over your backward interpretation of the bible anyday.

I don't think I have read any passage that says that those who have passed can pass your message on to God, when you can have direct contact with himself yourself. Praying for someone is different, and there is such that as intercession, but someone who is alive is praying for you. Not to mention that fact that, you don't know who is going to Heaven and who is not. Man makes saints by HIS standards. God does not have a formula for a saint in his word.[/quote]
Revelation 5:8 clearly says they can. Perhaps you should go back and re-read your bible.

Uhhh....maybe becasue the Mark of the Beast is not quite apporpriate for a 10 year old? A 10 year old is a baby to me. I was not taught that until much later, I was in middle school actually.

Again, so what? The early church fathers and the apostoles (who were the closest to Christ himself) clearly understood the grace the Virgin Mary possesses, and I can cite dozens of quotes to prove my points if you wish with all I have said.

More bullshit. I can think of several recent homolies/sermons our priests have said about revelation and how we should be prepared for Christ's coming: Live your life as a Christian daily, becasue we will never know the time or hour Christ is coming back for us. You brand your supposed "bad" teachings at your supposed, "Catholic Church" and the fact you actually beleive it is taught like that internationally, is very simple minded.

For one thing, I am an American citizen. I immigrated here with my family over 10 years ago. So yes, I went to Catholic school in the U.S., and have attended church almost my entire life here, so I don't buy your tall tales of the evil Catholic Churches in your state you have supposedly attended.

DID YOU EVEN READ THE VERSE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)." For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).

NEWS FLASH EPIPHANY--Baptism is NOT limited to Adults 18+.

So let me get this straight, you were supposedly Catholic, attended Catholic school, then a Lutheran school? I am not buying any of what you are saying becasue NONE of it makes sense. You have yet to prove even one of your ridiculous assertions about the Catholic Church, with substantial proof, for one thing. Secondly, I am still waiting for you to show me which Catholic churches have asked their members for 20% of their incomes, and thirdly, while your at it, give me the names of the Catholic churches you attended, I swear I will call them up and ask if you EVER attended their schools or if students are told there not to bring their bibles. Go on, put your money where your mouth is, it's now time to test your little stories.

So basically if I don't speak in tounges, I do not possess the holy spirit? Bah. I think most of the time people either are full of themselves or, "get caught up in the moment". No, the Catholic Church does not teach just by SAYING you have faith in God means you have it, that's a Protestant idea, not a Catholic one.

 

If you knew anything about Revelation, you know that the False Prophet will be a religious leader. I'm not really sure how people don't see that if the catholic church predicts a black/dark pope, you don't think that would relate to the false prophet. Hmmm false prophet, evil leader... I also find it amusing that in order to point things out to me, you have to resort to name calling and cut downs. That isn't very Godly-like, is it?

So, God gave us the Bible for fun then? And Jesus Christ himself said, when the church elders protested the way his disciples behaved, "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding onto the the traditions of men. You have a find way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions." (Mark 7:8) Exactly, traditions have been passed on by MEN. If a church leader's methods don't coincide with the bible, then there is not point in following them because they are merely TRADITIONS. And we are talking about God's instructions for our life, hence, why he gave us the Bible. Backwards interpretation? Seems clear as day to me. That's your perogative to take teachings of man, but I prefer to stick to Jesus's teachings and those he has placed as teachers who actually follow his word. Not those who make up traditions for their own benefit, or just, "something nice that we do".

Uh, then I take it that your not aware when Peter says, "Pray for me saints", in his letter to the Corinthians, he is speaking to the followers of Christ. Who are the followers of Christ? his believers! He isn't merely talking to these people that you see in pictures or hear catholic churches named after. God's people, the chosen ones, believers, saints, the elect, those are ALL God's followers. Not just those who did these good things and were named saints by a man in a robe.

So, if you have a child, and the antichrist was reigning today, how would you explain to your child why you and your family don't accept the mark of the beast, so, your child has no food, because those who don't accept the mark, will not be able to sell or purchase. Would you not explain this to your children? My family didn't even know all these teachings and they were all raised in the catholic church.

Yeah... She was blessed by God and bore the son. That doesn't make her equal with God, that makes her a woman who is blessed. I hate to tell you this, but, she has no power. She is merely a blessed woman. The apostles said hail mary when? The apostles were close to Mary because she was his mother. Anyone who is a follower of Christ is blessed. ould yWou like me to ask my church memeber to go run a message up to God for me? Should I pray, "holy so and so"? Peter was blessed by Jesus by being the rock he built his church on. Do we say, "holy peter, apostle of Jesus?" No, we don't. We know that he was a disciple, and that he was blessed, but he doesn't hold any special power.

Actually believe? I think I have said it twice now that I was raised catholic. My entire family is catholic. Every catholic church I have ever attended has been the same way. The last time I heard anything said about Christ's coming back at the catholic church...."We believe that Christ is coming back to judge the living and the dead"... that was it. No sermon, no message, just a simple. "We believe". The main focus was always on their teachings.

Did I ever say that? No, I did NOT. I said that until one can COMPREHEND the idea of repentance, then baptizing them means nothing. How can you baptize someone who hasn't repented? What, are you now saying that parents are repenting for their children? Because I hate to tell you that the bible says that everyone must repent for themselves. I was baptized when I was baby. Do you think I was lying there in my little baptism dress thinking, "Oh God, I repent for my sin?" No, I wasn't, because I want a baby! I know of some seven year old children who are baptized and filled with the holy ghost. They understood the concept, if they didn't, God wouldn't have filled with them. You keep missing the point. Did you ask for forgiveness when you were baptized as an infant? No, you didn't. Yes, you can be baptized under the age of 18, no, baptism means nothing if you are not asking for forgiveness.

LOL, yeah, I'm going to give a complete stranger online the names, adresses and phone numbers of all of the schools I attended? Are you nuts? I attended a catholic church from birth, until high school. I attended a catholic school from grade one through the first half of fith grade. I attended a christian school from the middle of fifth grade, through eighth grade. (Which was the first time that the message of forgiveness before baptism was ever preached) I attended a lutheran school junior and senior year. I will have my family give me the specifics of the sermons preached in church from now on, and you can tell me if you don't see anything wrong with them. I'm sorry, but why would I lie about schools I have attended?

Well, if God says that he will give his believers his own spirit, and they will know with strange lips and foreign tongues, which the book of Acts clearly shows the infilling of the holy ghost BY speaking in tongues, then no, you are not filled with the holy ghost. I'm sorry, but Acts shows us that is how we know we have the holy ghost, by speaking in the language God gives us. If you don't believe that, and discredit the bookf of Acts, then how you do call yourself a follower? I was taught in my catholic school that all I had to do was believe in God, be a good girl, and obey the church, and that meant I was alright with God. Infact, never, in the five years I spent at the catholic school, was I ever taught the word, "saved". Just to follow the teachings that they provided in their own little books and that I would be okay. No, the bible shows that those who are filled with the holy spirit, speak with a new tongue. I'm not really sure who is teaching you that you have the holy spirit, when Acts shows you how you know that you posess it. Because anyone that is showing you something that goes against what the bible says, is false. I have never been to one single catholic church that said anything other than believing in God, obeying the commandments, and complying to all of these nifty man made sacraments, then you are going to Heaven. Most of the members of my church came from a catholic background.s as well. They had never heard of asking for forgiveness before being baptized, being filled with the holy ghost, or anything else that has been preached at the catholic churches they have attended and neither have I. They never knew that there was much more than a rosary, sprinkling of water, some bread and wine. I just talked to someone who was raised in the catholic church their entire life what baptism means in her faith. She said, "We do it so that if the baby dies, that they will go to Heaven". Well of course babies go to Heaven if they die. They don't have the option of deciding to follow Christ or not because their babies! that was that. There was NO message of repenting for sin, at all, just some way of preventing a baby from hell. So, I suppose your going to tell me that the sixty-seventy years she has spent in the catholic church is a lie? or did you expect me to give you her phone number so you could ask her this?

 

The Catholic Church membership has taken a hit lately, and Vatican leaders are concerned. But they won't be able to stop the inevitable: world religions are going to have to become more pragmatic, more practical, more accessible. The Name-Of-The-Rose days are over; the emphasis now is on seeking and questioning, not inheriting and repeating.

 

Epiphany--I am going out of town for about 2 days, but I will get back to you with a reply, but it's 1:14 AM my time and I am very sleepy.

Sassure: Interesting point. I do agree that the Church has some challenges in front of it by keeping it's members, but statistics show there are over 1 Billion Catholics internationally, so I think they are doing some things right but need some drastic reforms. Point taken.

 

Yes, the Catholic Church is still a powerful force, and there are a lot of believers and supporters. How the church handles the current crises will determine whether it shrinks or grows as the 21st century unfolds.

Born and raised Irish-Catholic, I know only too well the way an organized religion can dominate one's daily life, as it does even today in so many places such as Ireland, Mexico, Central America, and South America.

What's happening now may be just a bump in the road, or it may be the beginning of a profound change. Either way, the change will be gradual, and not quite as painful as some would imagine......

 

i think that the roman catholic church should be more concerned about the number of men entering the priesthood... currently in the usa, something less than 600 per year entered seminary (compared to like almost 6000/year during the mid-1960s)...
allowing married clergy & the ordination of women within the roman catholic church could do much the relieve the drain of qualified applicants from the pool, eh?
~
& back in the 60s, the pope & the vatican II council seemed far more open to "other voices" than the current pontiff...
(although ecumenical dialogs are still continuing between the church of rome & other christian groups, such as lutherans & anglicans & eastern orthodox bodies...)
~
shalom

 

On the intercession thing:

Revelation 5:8 - And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Okay. Saints have prayers. Okay. Is that an ordained "saint" or does it mean the saints as in "all the elect."? Even then, where do you draw the idea that these are intercessory prayers? The passage doesn't say one way or the other.

Also note Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

And Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

It is pretty indicative that the dead do not know what transpires here. The cannot hear us. Even if they could though, they would not be omniscient (so they wouldn't know what every person was praying) nor would they be omnipresent (so they couldn't hear every prayer). The only option would be for them to be in a special room or something or have some sort of mechanism in order for them to hear every prayer that was prayed to them in order for them to interceed. There is no scriptural basis for this IMHO, and postulating that one exists without having the scriptural support is really just making up things in order to support the presupposition that the saints can hear us. In a sense, it is simply begging the question.

So you are left with asking someone who might not hear you to pray for you (either because they cannot hear every prayer or because they cannot hear the living at all). Why not just pray to the one who intercedes for all of us (Jesus Christ). He IS omnicient and omnipresent and, as such, can hear every prayer. Why bother asking a saint for intercession when Christ is available? Also, if we, at the foot of the cross, are all ontologically equal and all loved equally by God, why would God hold the prayers of you and I in less regard than the prayers of Mary, Peter, John, etc.?

 

I find it interesting that the Catholic church has revised their 400 year old written catechism to include Muslims in the plan of salvation. The thing about the Muslim faith is that they don't believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The begining of salvation is belief in Jesus. Jesus said, ""If you don't believe I am he, ye shall die in your sins".

 

Interesting idea, can you prove it?