The jews hadn't tried repeatedly to destroy Germany. Germany wasn't surrounded by jewish states which explicitly called for its destruction. Your comparison is completely idiotic. Furthermore, you don't destroy Palestine by tearing down your settlements and leaving Gaza.
Coopdog: Atleast we [all] are finding out how some people percieve Israel. I think you have to take a pinch of this and a touch of that. I have to say 'palaeopeasant' made more sense to me, maybe that is my prejudice coming out. Imho: 'United States support Israel against the Palestinians?' : I don't think that is true. I think they want them to both get along, but the 'Palestinians' are a touch more hostile [at the moment]. So they seemingly are more in favour of Israel. Maybe one Admin gets on better with another and none of them all get on at the same time, hence the stale mate. On 13 September 1993, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and the Government of Israel signed the "Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements" at the White House in Washington D.C. The Declaration was preceded by the exchange of letters of mutual recognition between the Government of Israel and the PLO on 9 September 1993. The two sides agreed on a framework for the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations within the Middle East Peace Process with the aim of, among other things, " to establish a Palestinian Interim Self-Government Authority, the elected council (the "Council"), for the Palestinian people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, for a transitional period not exceeding five years, leading to a permanent settlement based on Security Council resolutions 242 (1967) and 338 (1973)". http://www.palestine-un.org/chron/frindex.html I don't think this would occur if it was as simplistic as 'United States support Israel against the Palestinian'. I don't think you will ever get a answer, because in my humble opinion the question is not valid. Maybe i'm wrong. :dupe:
Thank you MBworkrelated. Maybe I did not phrase it correctly, but I still would like to know why we are there in the first place. Maybe I should have said we support Israel against EVERYBODY else. I think that would be closer to the truth of the matter.
israel is an entity created by someone other than the people who were already living there. in the beginning the jews turning up were doing something extraordinary - paying for the land, nowadays they drive people off their land by the barrel of a gun, bulldozer or by spraying their crops with herbicides (the arabs of the south who have had no real quarrel with the israelis are now complaining of this). do you know what? karma always catches up with you. then again me being a "lieing piece of scum" what the hell do i know ? it is only logical based on what the israelis have done and are still doing that the situation is similar to the situation to the jews of europe pre ww2 ie "the final solution". no doubt some people have sat down together and discussed how they were going to kill or get rid of the owners of palestine. this is all being done with the permission of god of course and the good of a healthy real estate market, just think what profit you can turn if you sell something that you don't own for a mint?! in this way palestine is a goldmine, maybe i should buy into the loan business there?
Again, how does tearing down settlements and handing over Gaza fit with this theory? It doesn't, you are making it very obvious that you just ignore facts which don't fit your theory.
I never cease to wonder at the mentality of the Israel-haters. How could anyone rationally compare Israel to Nazi Germany? Israel has made no attempt to exterminate the "Palestinian" people. Israel has acted entirely in self-defense. Anyone claiming otherwise is ignoring the plethora of murderous TERROR attacks against Jews. Against ANY Jew. Blow up a teenage girl on the bus and you're an Islamic hero to the "Palestinians". Who are the Nazis here? And keep in mind, if you want REAL Nazis, look to the Arabs. THEY were the ones aiding and abetting Hitler with his final solution. Check out Hajj Amin, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, expressing the hope that Hitler finishes the job so "we don't have to do it here". And apparently the ambient mentality today is that that "job" is still being finished by the "Palestinians". How vile. None of the criticisms levelled at the Israeli state are valid due to their hyperbole. You could make these criticisms of most nations. Care to discuss the behavior of the French government since WW2? Despicable! And by a nation created by people who didn't live there (the Franks)! And the crap the Franks did to the indigenous Gauls makes Saddam seem like a moderate. But let's get back to the region at hand... Arabs invaded and conquered Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq. None of these countries were inhabited by Arabs to any significant extent. These SETTLERS arrived, forcing their religion on people, removing populations, setting up an intensely patriarchal social system which created extensive misery. European attempts to liberate the coastal areas from the imperialist Arabs having failed, sufficient time passed that the imperialist cult (Islam) of the Arabs had become well implanted, just as had Christianity in France, due to centuries of brutal suppression of alternate faiths by the Franks and their Papal allies. Syria is Aram. Lebanon is Phoenicia. Iraq is an assortment of Mesopotamian peoples. Arabs are from ARABIA. It is a grand tragedy of human history that they did not STAY there. Well, Armenia is still an independent nation, despite the efforts of Turks and others to erase it. Many nations have been submerged and never re-emerged. I see no reason not to celebrate that some have managed to achieve independence of a sort in the modern world, so HURRAY for the Jews who pulled it off. Too bad everyone can't. Of course, "Palestine" includes Jordan, so the majority of "Palestinian" land has been in Arab hands since 1947. The "Palestinians´" Arab brothers respond to their plight (created by an Arab-instigated war) by keeping them in concentration ("refugee") camps and using them to further their Arab nationalist and Islamicist agendas. By contrast, the Sefardic Jews (the majority of Israeli Jews) who arrived as refugees from the "Arab" nations who had disenfranchised them and were in the process of mounting bloody pogroms, were absorbed by the nation and given the chance to establish decent lives. So whose fault is the current situation of the "Palestinians"? The Israeli government, like any other, is full of demogogues and opportunists. Sharon at times in his life behaved as a thug. The Likud Party in the past has had episodes of schizophrenic behavior which left me shaking my head in disbelief. By comparison, Hafez al-Assad massacred 30,000 people in towns in Syria where there was political opposition to his dictatorship. Saddam Hussein...well, his antics are well-known. The PLO took to murdering Europeans, Americans, nearly anyone whom they could grab and use to get a headline. But the Israelis are the devils? The next time Israel bombs a building and kills a handful of "Palestinians", most of whom are proven to have been directly involved in the terrorist murder of some Jewish civilian(s), think about the dead Jews before you jump to a kneejerk reaction against Israel because it has become somehow perversely, morbidly and macabrely hip to do so. And if you want to make the argument a religious one, go have a few discussions with: a) a rabid Talibanesque Islamicist, b) a rabid Fundamentalist Christian, and c) a religious Jew. Then come tell me how terrible is this "Chosen People" schtick.
friend i have been to palestine/ israel, i have seen with my own eyes, listened with my own ears. the beauty of first hand experience with an impartiality is better than any book or television programme on the subject. you don't have to travel too far in the media to realise this. you see when in first turned up i had a understanding of the whole subject based on on the media which at the time was heavily biased towards israel, by the time i left i had a first hand realtime, on the ground understanding of what was going on. after a couple of years i started putting these experiences in context as i learned more and more seemingly unrelated subjects. i'm not saying i saw every situation in places like the west bank (gunfire all day long and flares being fired off into the night sky massive housing estates like fortresses placed on hills with the entire hill top chopped off and rendered ugly - actually the israelis have done a great deal to make the west bank immensely ugly with these "settlements") etc etc whatever you do you do to yourself, the israelis will understand this whether its from the bible or from commonsense though theres precious little of either in palestine.
I just want to say that it's quite possible to be pro-palistine (pro-palestinian independance and freedom), without being anti-israel. It's also possible to be anti-Israeli-Government without being anti-Israeli-People (Translation: you can be against what the Israeli Government is doing without being an anti-semite!). Actually, the Israelis as a whole are an intelligent, reasonable people, so why they allow their government to act with such terror is quite nearly beyond me. Also, the Apartheid conditions forced upon the palestinians is being funded by our tax money, whereas we aren't funding the Islamic militants. Both practice terrorism is some form, yet we have decided that one is more acceptable than the other. Finally, it's important to note that neither side is fully innocent (both practice some form of terror upon the other, which is perhaps why the whole deal is so complicated) and both have and continue to have victims a-plenty.
We are there along with any nation that is influential in the region. Simple really. Phoenix, please. I thank you for your courtesy. That is not really saying anything different that you already have said. Imho that logic is wrong and simplistic, sorry.
No need to apologize, you are right. I obviously don't understand the situation over there. THAT is why I asked, so that I may gain some understanding.
I'm am sorry, i was a little rude and arrogant. I'm not claiming to be a expert. All this information is a good way to find out more [i found out a lot]. I [imho] just think the question is the wrong one. Imho the question should be ''why the hell is it not sorted out by now''. Like i said
I think you guys are looking way too deep into this. There's a part of the world that hates us and yet we have an ally right on their front porch--"The enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine."
righhht.... so thats why israel has been caught red handed stealing secrets from the american security services in the past. i'd be careful of allies that do this. the non religious israeli is more often than not- not a warmonger on the otherhand in general the religous zealots of the country want to destroy anything that doesn't conform to their religion or view of the world. i can only thank my lucky stars that the american tax payer is paying for this holy war on islam.
>>>I just want to say that it's quite possible to be pro-palistine >>>(pro-palestinian independance and freedom), without being anti-israel. If, however, you define "pro-Palestinian independence and freedom" as entailing the elimination of the state of Israel, then your stance is by definition anti-Jewish. You're quite correct that the Israeli govt should be open to criticism the same as any other govt. >>>Actually, the Israelis as a whole are an intelligent, reasonable people, >>>so why they allow their government to act with such terror is quite >>>nearly beyond me. The Americans as a whole being allegedly freedom-loving enlightened sons of liberty, why they allow idiots to sit in the White House is beyond me. We could ask this question of the population of many countries... WHY do you tolerate this crap? I have to insist that it is hypocritical for many in the West who are sensitive (rightly so) to every injustice in the West—whether a slight to women or a minority, worker abuse, environmental carelessness, whatever—to sit silent about the abuses of the many fascist regimes in the Middle East. >>>Also, the Apartheid conditions forced upon the palestinians is being >>>funded by our tax money, whereas we aren't funding the Islamic militants. US tax money funds the Palestinians. The apartheid conditions arose due to Arab intransigence. Israel took care if its refugees following mass exodus from Arab nations by Sefardics to avoid pogroms. See my last post. >>>Finally, it's important to note that neither side is fully innocent (both >>>practice some form of terror upon the other, which is perhaps why the >>>whole deal is so complicated) and both have and continue to have >>>victims a-plenty. I'm still looking for innocence among the world's nations. I'm also still looking for an honest man. Wish me luck with this. We can criticize extensively the Israeli govt as long as we recognize that there is a Jewish people, a Jewish nation, with rights to their land, which in their case has been identified with them for at least 5 millennia, and that the world has to insist that the ARABS face the fact that they were not chosen by Allah to rule every inch they've ever set foot on and they will have to recognize that the Jewish nation exists. If it exists in a place Arabs don't like because their religion usurped Jewish holy places as Mohammed intentionally concocted it to convert and replace Judaism...then that it to f'ing bad, no proclamation by Mullahs or Sheikhs nullifies the reality of Israel. The Arab rulers think they have the right to draw boundaries as they choose, to impose religious rules and restrictions of liberty as they deem proper. Not unlike the Euro imperialists. The Arab Empire is analogous to the Spanish Empire, the latter in fact influenced to some extent by the former. Similarly, there was a forcible imposition of religion along with language and culture, so that people with no Spanish ancestry today are often referred to as "Hispanics" or "Latinos"... They are not Spaniards or Romans any more than most Algerians, Moroccans, Lebanese or Syrians are really "Arabs". The view accepted by many of the Arab world as analogous to Native America or Africa in being made "3rd world", parasitized by Euroimperialism, is not valid. The Arab world is simply an area of the imperialist world which has been for a few centuries in decline relative to the rise of Western Europe. They are a competing empire. They are no more "3rd world" socially and politically than were the Byzantines or the Romans. The Arab media and governments love to put forth the Palestinian poster child for the oppressed Arabs, insulted and exploited by the evil West. By infidels. Perhaps to achieve a more unbiased view, we should peruse images of the incredible wealth enjoyed by the majority of the Arabs of the Gulf states, and the contrast between the life of the wealthy and the poor in nations like Jordan, Egypt, Iraq... While many fluffy neo-"leftists" in the West get a fuzzy feeling when ignoring the reality in favor of the Arab propaganda, they in so doing serve the interests of imperialism. Arab societies, as those of the West, require extensive REVOLUTIONARY change. That change has progressed to SOME extent in the West, with the various revolutions and movements which have given us some degree of freedom, far beyond what has evolved in the Arab/Muslim world. Arab, Iranian and other Muslim leftists, moderates, and such that recognize the need for social change, are whom we should be supporting, not Hamas nutcases, Jew-hating liars and jihadists. Many complain that the USA supports Israel, but why aren't you complaining that the Reagan Administration refused to support the Iranian Mujahedin against the Ayatollah, our common enemy, because the Mujahedin contained so many "leftists" (in other words, people who if they moved to the USA would vote Democratic). Here was an opportunity to support progressive forces in Iran and the USA utterly ignored it, instead doing dirty deals for missiles to support USA-backed Contra terrorists in Nicaragua. This is but ONE bit of Mideast history in which you can clearly see that ISRAEL is not the demon. Why ignore this? Anything is up for reasonable discussion as long as you are not denying the right of Israel to exist. That's the bottom line.
Every ally steals from everyone... that's just how it works. British, Russian...everyone is out for everyones secrets.
you should really read the book the thirteenth tribe by arthur koestler and holocaust industry by norman finkelstein. sorry, but a bunch of eastern europeans who converted to judaism in the 9th century ad are not the same israelites of the old testament. orthodox jews tend to be ashkenazian(eastern european). sephradic jews on the other hand are semitic as are arabs. maybe i should convert to buddhism and go whine to some asian country and demand that they give me my own home land because i converted to a religion. tradtionally in judaism said adherents are not supposed to return to their holy land until the messiah comes to earth. jews unlike christians do not believe the messiah has even been here on earth. i have various reasons why we shouldn't support these people. recently their prime minister was at a press conference and inadvertantley admitted to his country having nukes. http://www.crosswalk.com/1457109/ ooops. guess what this means kids? this means we've been illegally giving funds to israel for quite some time. because under our own laws we are not supposed to give any financial aid to any country that posseses or is attempting to aquire weapons of mass destruction. also there's the recent AIPAC scandal, if they really are our allies then why would they spy on us like that? Let's also not forget about The USS Liberty. i'm tired of their racist "we're god's chosen and the goyim are not so fuck you" attitude. but yeah, dancer annie is right. Washington DC is in bed with the Zionist state of Israel. besides keep in mind that Adolf Hitler was a supporter of a seperate jewish state as well. talk about talking ouit of both sides of your mouth. the ADL and The Simon Weisenthal Center and Southern Pverty Law Center and all these other Zionist lobbying groups talk about how terrible the nazis were and how they hate racism and push for hate crime laws as well as gun control laws. yet they support the campaign of ethnic cleansing of arabs and persians as well as gun control here in the good old US of A. both ideas i'm sure Hitler would have loved. until we get to pick our candidates and make sure their loyalties lie predominately with our country and not some foreign countries then our political system is destined to be one great deathblow to a country that was once the jewel of the western world . actually we've supported this idea since 1948, the UN and Harry Truman pushed for it as a matter of fact. the idea of Zionism goes back much further than that though. http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Bjerknes_25July2006.html theodore herzl is who is credited with bringing about the movement for an all jewish homeland. not very many people want to admit it but Israel bullies it's neighbors around and picks fights. if you are one to believe what the pro israel media and hollywood tells you only arabs and persians are terrorists. but answer one question, how often do you hear hollywood or the news media mention Mossad? Mossad is known for it's long history of high jackings and other violent acts. it's believed by some that they may have had something to do with the bombing of that airplane in lockerby, scotland back in the 1980s. Israel and it's proponents need to be put in the spotlight and exposed for what they are. violent criminals who have been nothing but a liability to us here in the west ever since their country was formed in 1948. that's my input. http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2448/2622/1600/bushflagS.jpg
i'm not debating the morality of stealing secrets i'm debating the trustworthiness of allies that do this. ignore this and as a country you leave yourself wide open. paleopeasant nice to see you back, i trust you've had a good sleep since your last posts.
wow, I am just amazed how people know little about history. I teach history in CUNY, NY. And after reading these posts I am in shock. So I am not going to give the whole story here. but foundation wise, the US development relation with Israel, as a part of Cold War strategy. Yes the US supported the establishment of Israel in 1947. But it wasn't until Nixon that the US development relation with Israel. Also Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, and the US real friend in the region. for more information I recommend to read this article http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/roots_of_US-Israel.html
i don't really think anyone with even half a brain would believe that. if only i relied on the jewishvirtuallibrary.org to teach me history, all my problems about how to see the world would be solved. i doubt if a people who have set up large concentration camps / ghettoes for the purpose of containment and extermination can really be relied to give any factual account of history. sometimes you have to read between the lines with historical references.
