United States Federal Government Shut-Down

Discussion in 'Latest Hip News Stories' started by Aerianne, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Sig

    Sig Senior Member

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    Yes, the minority is the minority. In this country, however, the majority does not rule simply because it is the majority; never has and never will. We are not ruled by the mob.

    I think that minority should use every tool available to them (to include inducing a shut down or even allowing us to hit our debt limit) to push legislation they think is important, or to block legislation they think is bad, regardless of whether or not I agree with their final aims. If they didn't use every tool then they wouldn't be doing their job.

    Again with the hostage talk. You wouldn't be saying the same thing if it was your party or position in the minority. That is the same type of rhetoric you claim to despise yet, like Obama, engage it in anyway. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
     
  2. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    That is bullshit, sorry. Your understanding of the political system is awful. You keep insulting me for no reason. I am not a hypocrite. If you want to convince people of your views, stop the hate.
     
  3. Sig

    Sig Senior Member

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    It isn't bullshit, it is exactly the system we have in place and the men who built this system are on record saying that the mob should never rule here. Can't handle that? Fine, but simply being the majority doesn't cut it in out political system.

    You are the definition of hypocrite. Hate? I don't hate you. I think someone doesn't like having his views questioned/challenged, so that someone adopts the "stop making fun" defense. Sad.
     
  4. sunfighter

    sunfighter Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    If you don't hate me, why do you keep insulting me for no reason? I'm tired of your bullshit. Goodbye.
     
  5. Karen_J

    Karen_J Visitor

    You'll never encounter much of the standard military mindset here, thank god!

    I'll be drinking to that, in about one hour. :cheers2:
     
  6. Sig

    Sig Senior Member

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    Could you please point out what insults I have sent your way? Do you consider "hypocrite" an insult? Is questioning or challenging your position what you find insulting?
     
  7. Sig

    Sig Senior Member

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    heh, I know. A shame.
     
  8. deleted

    deleted Visitor

  9. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Keep celebrating for now. This bill will wind up like the 18th amendment in due time.
     
  10. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    We are not talking about common citizens, we are talking about the Legislative Branch of the federal government.

    In either one of the Houses a Bill must be sponsored by a Senator or Representative. It is then assigned a number and sent to a committee for consideration. The committee may send it on, refer it to a sub committee, or reject it. If sent to a sub committee it may be changed or it may die there. If approved by the sub committee, it is then sent back to the committee which may hold public meetings, reviewed further, or voted on. If approved by a majority vote it is reported. The report is then published.
    Now the bill is placed on the calender for floor review and it is debated.

    After the debate is finished a voice vote or roll call vote is taken. A majority is needed to pass the bill.

    Then the bill is sent to the other House for the same treatment.

    So in the course of constitutional governmental actions..the majority rules when passing laws.

    Boehner, as Speaker of the House, refused to call a vote to fund a clean government funding bill because he knew it would pass the House and then be approved by the Senate and signed by the President. So he demanded that Obama and the Senate make concessions to laws that were already passed by both houses and approved by the Supreme Court or he would not call for a vote and thus not fund the government.

    ....Thereby trying to avoid the legal process of introducing a bill that would address his concerns and instead threaten to hold up the legal, and constitutionally required action of paying the legal bills of the United States and instead tryed to coerce the President and Senate by holding the economy of the U.S. and the world for ransom; even though the votes were present in the House to approve a clean funding bill.

    As Sig stated, it was an attempt by the Tea Party arm of the Republican party to override the majority votes required in the House by constitutional law and have rule by the minority and completely disregard the Constitution of the United States.


    Didn't work, as the President and the Senate refused to negotiate changes to approved laws under unconstitutional pressures.​
     
  11. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Good explanation, Meagain. Don't know why anyone would think the minority rules. I would add that these days the rich rule, even though they are the minority in numbers, but the majority in influencing the legislators with their "free speech", which should make some of the suck-asses to the rich happy.
     
  12. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    Eat the rich. Ahem, barry sign up yet?
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The President of the United States is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Services. As such he is eligible for the same benefits as any member of the military. While in office he and his family are both covered under the military plan which dates back to the 1700's.

    After leaving office he may continue with the military plan, as any other veteran of the armed services can do, he may choose from a privatized plan available to any government employee and pay the same rates as they do, or he may choose to enroll in any other private insurance plan of his choosing at his cost.

    Likewise you may get your insurance through the military, if you are currently serving or a veteran, you may get it through your employer as a "free" benefit or at a rate set by them, you may get it as a dependent from your parents, you may buy your own privatized plan at the best rate you can get, or you can enroll in the Affordable Heath Care system. Or don't buy insurance and just pay the penalty so as not to hurt those that pay their own way.

    No one forces you to use the Affordable Care Act.

    As civilians members of Congress do not get military insurance unless they are currently in the military or veterans. Their families get no benefits. As members of Congress their employer, the federal government, contributes to their healthcare plan. They do not need to use the Affordable Care Act as their employer provides a health benefit to them, same as anyone else who is provided health care by their employer.
     
  14. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    If the above statement exonerates hizoner from ACA , so be it. However, would you call him using this loophole a vote of confidence? Do the oby's eat their own cooking? NO. And you just admitted it.
     
  15. eggsprog

    eggsprog anti gang marriage HipForums Supporter

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    How is it a loophole if he is following the same rules as everyone else in America?
     
  16. Sig

    Sig Senior Member

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    And that concept (majority doesn't rule) is even built into the legislative process, Meagain. Simply having a simple majority doesn't always cut it in the legislative process.

    My over all point in regards to the minority vs majority comment made by sunfighter (and perhaps I should have been more clear) was that something having majority support doesn't mean that that something is right and shouldn't be fought by those who oppose it, with every tool at their disposal. If it is important enough to them to force a government shutdown, so be it. If it is important enough to them cause the United States to default, so be it. Simply saying "we have the majority" and expecting that to be reason enough for people to roll over is dangerous.

    You claim what happened was somehow unconstitutional? How do you come to that conclusion? What amendments were violated? What laws were broken? Be careful here, wording is everything....
     
  17. Sig

    Sig Senior Member

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    No one claimed the minority rules. All that was said was that having majority support doesn't always cut it, and that "we are the majority" is not reason enough for the minority to simply roll over and take whatever is coming. Down that path lies tyranny.
     
  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Loop hole:
    There is no omission or ambiguity in the veterans' and active service health care law concerning military personal. Some civilians are also covered under this law such as the World War II civilian members of the United States Merchant Marine Service, who incidentally suffered the highest percentage of attrition of any service during that war.

    The President is billed for all food supplied to his family and personal guests.
    The food comes from Secret Service-approved commercial suppliers, farmers markets and the grocery store. Wine is always from Virginia, Idaho and California. The presidential family pays its own dry cleaning bills.

    The White House is operated by a 90 member permanent staff that serve both the Presidential family, the up to 30,000 weekly guests, and supply the necessary maintenance on the house and grounds. The staff, or duties of the staff, do not change due to the political party of the President or changes due to the election of a President.
     
  19. eggsprog

    eggsprog anti gang marriage HipForums Supporter

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    I think I would argue the opposite, that following the wishes of the majority of people will prevent tyranny, where following the wishes of a minority sets you down the path of tyranny.
     
  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    A simple majority in the House is 218 votes. 218 times 2 is 436. As there are 435 members of the House, a simple majority is still a majority. So whether a bill passes by a simple majority or a greater majority, it still needs a majority vote to pass.

    I would only add that I would not agree with the any tool at their disposal part. Would you include violence or unconstitutional acts?

    Admittedly I am not a Constitutional scholar, but I don't think anyone here is. So with that in mind....

    And then we have....
    The Republicans were refusing to pay for lawful debts as due unless they got their way, they were questioning the need to meet the bills of the United States until their demands were met. They felt no harm would be incurred by waiting; in my, and others' opinion, that is a clear violation of the 14th Amendment. Some Constitutional scholars even claimed that this left the President free to raise the debt ceiling himself, without Congressional approval, as the bills can not be questioned, and must be paid when due.
     

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