Union or Confederate?

RE: yeah, we're all not racist....and the civil war was not about slavery, contrary to popular belief....it was about the debate over state's rights....

The states' rights to let people own black people, you mean....

Come on. You can't dodge this. The South wanted its genteel sippin mint juleps on the pawch of the big house on tha plantation crap while an entire nation of unpaid, owned people did the work.

 

Pittsburgh has shitloads of rednecks

 

That's what I was thinkin...

 

PA has tons of rednecks, sure.

Met one of the biggest ones online who was from Punxsy.

 

NO. The civil war was about more states rights issues than just slavery. Yes, it was one of the concerns, but it was not the focus of the tension until the northern states were losing public interest, and needing soldiers decided to pull at the heart strings of everyday people. Thus the public began to focus more on the slavery issue and media portrayed it as the main issue. And as everyone knows, what the media says and believes is the main historical documentation that most people look to.

HOWEVER, the federal government, like today, was attacking the states rights to make decisions for themselves, like placing embargos on things that could be bought or traded from other countries, as well as placing tarriffs on products that were needed much more in the southern states than in the northern states. The states wanted their own say in what products and countries were embargoed, as well as what tarriffs were placed because their industry was being affected. The federal government wouldn't hear of this, and because industry, especially farming, was what drove the south, they fought for their rights and livelihood against a government that didn't care about economy over political bullshit. Slavery was another states rights issue, but it was more about how the states were represented in the House and was not a moral issue. That major scuttle was settled with the Missouri Compromise, also known as the 3/4 compromise. And if I remember correctly, that was made sometime in the 1820s, when Missouri was entered into the union.

As far as Lincoln, no one is quite for sure if he was an abolitionist or pro-slavery. We can't look to any political quotes or bills that he signed or favoured for this information. What everyone likes to look to, The Emancipation Proclamation, was nothing more than a way for Lincoln to get the abolitionists off his back. The document, if read correctly, basically frees the slaves in the succeeded states. Now, because those states suceeded and were no longer following the rule of the President of the United States of America, the proclamation was voided. However, most people didn't read the fine print and considered Lincoln to be some sort of great humanitarian president. I'm not saying he wasn't, but there is really no evidence to support that theory...

 

RE: The federal government wouldn't hear of this, and because industry, especially farming, was what drove the south, they fought for their rights and livelihood against a government that didn't care about economy over political bullshit.

Well the issue was this. White farmers in the South didn't want to have to pay the black people they were whipping the crap out of while forcing them to pick cotton in the blazing sun. You can represent it how you want, the South sure as hell tries to.

Sorry, I lived in the South, found it very charming. But I'll have to admit to you, 90% of the people who fly the Confederate flag down there are not making a statement about "State's Rights" - they're flying a known symbol of racism.

 

Yes, they may will be, but that does not excuse them or anyone else from being ignorant of the real roots of the civil war, which is still a hot issue today. Where does the federal government end and the states begin? Everyday it seems the federal government tries to take more rights away from states. If it doesn't stop, if we don't stand up like the south did, we will soon be living under pretty much a totalitarian regime!

 

And, IronGoth, I don't think you're reading this right. Not even the south really understands the issues anymore. The civil war was started in the political system, not in the farm lands. It was over the states rights to choose sides on issues, including but not limited to slavery.

 

ok yay good topic... hippyfreak you are one of my favorites now...you were right about most of waht you said except for about lincoln...ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT LINCOLN WAS TEH "GREAT EMANCIPATOR" SHOULD READ THE LINCOLN-DOUGLAS DEBATES....if you do not believe my source then go read the original in the library in DC.......Lincoln like most people in his day did not believe that blacks were equal to whites...he and the government even bought land in liberia and were going to ship the blacks back to africa and colonize them there but the plans fell through.......Lincoln's emancipation was as i believe hippyfreak said, just a political move....england had already abolished slavery and was getting into human rights and at that time the south was getting some support from france and england but when lincoln made the proclamtion england and france could not get any more involved with the south because it would make them look bad.....
Also like hippiefreak said...most people in the south dont even understand what the war was about anymore, reason being - history is written by the conquerors not the conquered.
A lot of slaves were paid, of course not as much as a white person woudl be but that didnt happen til the 60's....a very small percentage of slaves were beaten and you have to think about southern society back then..it was common place for wives and children to be beaten in the south regularly up into the mid 20th century, some still are today in the extremely rural areas.......
slavery is wrong but what flag flew over slave ships? english and american falgs, not a confederate flag. You also have to remember that people of all races ahve been put into slavery white black asian middle eastern south american....why dont yall get on the back of the miners out west specifically california who forced asians into slave labor.......or hwo about focus on how there is still slavery in some middle eastern countries.....
I am from the south....I love the south.....it's my home.....we are constantly put down in the media in public education every where you go....But you will not find a prouder group of people...white and black southerners alike.....Ever heard of The DIRTY SOUTH? Hey I didnt make that up, I dont think the south is very dirty, but apprently in rap lingo the dirty south is a good thing....we may talk slow, may not move around as fast and maybe seem a bit too laid back....but just cause things are a bit slow down here doesnt mean our minds are slow.....
I do not have much good to say about Lincoln, but I can say this......Had he not been shot by a foolish foolsih man, the south would have been treated a lot better then it was in the years of reconstruction and possibly not frowned upon as much today....

 

That by the way will be my last post on this topic because these things tend to get too dramatic, but if anyone would like to speak to me one on one about this I would be happy to oblige you with a conversation where we can both share our thoughts and facts maybe learn something from each other.

 

maybe becuase the FIRST official confederate flag came about in 1861 and the the slave trade had been banned for 40+ years by then?

Remember...the American flag was the SOUTHERN FLAG TOO!

Southerners can not get around it. Slavery is involved in every part of southern culture/economy/politics. You can talk about tariffs on your farming, but it was slavery that made the south. You can talk about states rights, but it was the rights involving slavery and economic tariffs(which involved slavery).

We can romanticize the south, but we cant get past the ugly part of it.

 

Maybe we can meet under the blue moon of Kentucky and do some combat.

"Blue moon of Kentucky
Keep on shining.
Shine on the one that's gone and left me blue."

 

I could definently believe that
but this:

hell no

 

I do realise that slavery was a very big part of the southern society and economy. However, to blame the whole of the civil war on it is ridiculous. Most southerners fought because they were told to stand up for themselves, not told the reasoning. They were fighting a battle on their lands that was created in the minds of Congressmen in Washington D.C. over the ability of states to make their own decisions.

Look up more than just your high school history books! If you look up the manuscripts of conversations in congress even 5-10 years before the start of the war, the southern representatives were heading a large debate with the rest of congress over what states were allowed to decide! I don't mean to sound condescending, but if you look more closely at history texts books, you will see that more often than not history is sugar-coated to make things look not so bad and to make the enemies look not so evil (including the United States). It is very true that history is written by the conquerors. Why else would we look at the Huns as illiterate war-mongers instead of the people that gave the west access to literate thought and art? Because they were defeated. The knowledge I have of the civil war was not something taught to me in my southern high-school history class. I learned like the rest of you that slavery was the main issue. I didn't learn until COLLEGE in my history classes (I was a history major) that the main issue was states rights.

As I have learned when it comes to knowledge of historical happenings: QUESTION EVERYTHING!

 

Gotta say, Hippiefreak that I am enjoying this thread...I had always thought that the Civil War was all about slavery...now I know a little bit more about the basis of the whole thing...thanks! I always loved history; I should have taken more history classes in college (I was an English major), but there you have it...I'll have to look up more Civil War history on the internet to get more of the real scoop.

 

Virgil Caine is the name and I served on the Denver train
Stoneman's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again
In the winter of '65 we was hungry, just barely alive
By May 10, Richmond had fell, it was a time I remember,
Oh so well

The night they drove ole Dixie down, all the bells were ringing
The night they drove ole Dixie down, all the people were singing
Na, na na na na na na, na na na na na na, na na na na na na

Back with my wife in Tennessee one day she called for me
Virgil quick come see there goes the "Robert E. Lee"
I don't mind chopping wood and I don't care
If the money's no good
Take what you need and leave the rest
They should never have taken the very best

Like my father before me, I'm a peaceful man
Like my brother before me, I took a rebel stand
Just 18, proud and gray, but a Yankee laid him in his grave
Swear by the blood running through (on) my feet
You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in defeat

 

how can you separate states rights from slavery?

can you separate slavey from the south? Nope.

 

it was still more about slavery than hippiefreak is letting on I think

one side is all blue and one is all gray
the real deal was probably more grayish-blue

 

No, there was debate over slavery, but it was not about the south's ability to own/hold slaves. They'd already decided that in the 1820s with the 2/3 compromise. What was being discussed was based more on tariffs and embargos than anything else.

I will totally rag on the slavery issue. Most slaves were treated horrible, yes. But saying that the civil war was all about slavery is like saying World War II was all about the holocaust. It became a heated issue in the LATER part of the war, not in the beginning.

 

just wondering

when exactly did it be considered a world war?