Thought Control

Okay zombiewolf, nice list... a lot of people with family connections to Hollywood, model-quality looks, or innate musical talent... but the list of people who dropped out of school and ended up with nothing is infinitely longer. Of course, nobody knows about those people, because, as I said, they ended up with nothing.

I'd also like to remind you that 40 years ago most businesses didn't laugh at you if you went in looking for a job with no education. In the 70s, you could also become a teacher two years after you left high school. Nowadays, you need at least a B.A. and a year of teacher's college. Pretty soon, you will also need an M.A.

Nowadays, you need a degree. It is essential. You are encouraging kids to drop out of school because you personally think it's worthless (maybe because you're bitter??), but I don't understand what the urgency is. It's not worthless at all. Even if you don't agree with what they're teaching you, do it just in case you're not going to be a famous musician/movie star. I'm willing to bet that all of those people would still be movie stars if they had finished school...

If you are a high school dropout/elementary school dropout and not a famous movie star, then please tell us all about your amazing life and all that it has brought you, zombiewolf... what do you do?

Most of the dropouts I know are losers, plain and simple. They work in factories and grocery stores, and they try to convince themselves they're satisfied. They also wish they had gone to school, but they're afraid to go back. Maybe they had a band in high school, but it didn't go anywhere.

And seriously.... Shakespeare??? You're comparing someone in 15th century British society to 21st century America??? And I see you threw in some 19th century people as well. And Princess Diana? Okay, if you're royalty, you probably don't need to go to school. Why not just say Jesus? He didn't have a high school education either! What about the guy who started using a rock as a hammer? Or the guy who invented the spear?

Okay, it's not impossible to succeed without an education. But that's not the point. If you're that talented, then you should be able to finish school and succeed as well. Any idiot should be able to figure it out, but when you're a kid, you usually don't know any better. Discouraging someone with talent is never a good idea, but encouraging someone to drop out of school is really stupid.

I hope that you don't have kids.

 

Do you know where you are? Alternative lifestyles are promoted here, get used to it.

Besides, since you tryin' to make this personal, I aint gonna speak on it no mo'

ZW

 

Umm...you are aware that gypsies are an ethnic race? Not all gypsies are jobless, caravan dwellers

 

i knew it its that fucking gypsy...jesus christ i have to put up with you in school and on the hip forums now, ugh whats the world coming to


ehh im right in assuming that this is sam? yeah?...gypsy

 

BlueJayWay:

Thanks for not saying anything about the issue at hand at all, and for being anal about the political correctness of a small insignificant detail included in my comment. Obviously, nobody could have possibly understood what I meant by what I said and I truly must concede that you possess an enlightened and all-too-worldly manner.

Though I must include a suggestion that in the future, you might wish to consider taking your cultural sensitivities and sticking them way up your ass.

 

hahaha! aw man you really are an uptight guy aren't you? and that comment really is a poor excuse for your ignorance...so might I suggest grabbing your head and pulling it out of your ass?


As for the subject at hand, I think we're capable of thinking for ourselves, regardless of where we are or what institution we're in.

 

The thing is even formal education isn't enought. You've got to go further ahead to really enjoy life! Enjoyment = Motivation = Efforts = Positive Results

 

Laws too, they don't want you doing psychedelics to see the truth.

 

^^^Apparently, the truth is 'My shoes can talk!'.

 

Also, BlueJayWay, you're the one who's ignorant if you think being that PC is anything except really really annoying.

 

If you hallucinate your brain can't handle that much new information.

 

Really? but the plant does all the work.
Our zucchini plant provides an over abundance of edible zucchini. 3 of us cannot eat them all! You can leave them in to grow more plants...almost exponentially it would seem!
Spinach foliage renews it self. Growing a small crop will give you fresh daily spinach.
Throw some potatoes down, hey presto potato.

Growing your own food requires LESS energy overall than sustaining habitual supermarket visitation.

 

The term 'Innate Talent' Is anecdotal.
Given that Charlie Parker practiced his saxophone, you cannot reduce his ability to some intrinsic automatic response.
His art was the result of applied devotion (time + energy)

You have the same things in your life, and the subject is your choice.

Topher D.'s Idea of Lifestyle Is a realistic pathway to the survival of the Human race.

We will all be living in a similar manner to Topher D. description because the alternative (which is to maintain our current standards of life) is an impossibility of Nature.
Logical observations of the world show that current values of human civilization, namely Materialism and Capitalism, are becoming the catalyst of our own annihilation.
Infrastructural consumerism is made possible through a forcing of synthetic disequilibrium which is ruthlessly and systematically imposed upon nature, and therefore cannot be sustained.

We won't be able to buy safety pins from Walmart at 3:AM for much longer...

 

What purpose is a Test or an Exam?

What good is it that Fred gets 72 and Pete gets 64

In the long run It will help neither person. Why are we pitted against one another in this ridiculous contest of so called 'academic performance'.
True academic performance is the contribution to knowledge itself. We project and expand upon human experience through our creativity. Truth is made a reality through it's shared understanding.

It's about sharing!

Yet here we are, still imbued with such bureaucratic vanity, where our viability as a feeling, breathing, learning human being is reduced to a piece of paper.

Art such as books and film, created for us to be ENJOYED by artists, is taken and dissected, prodded and analyzed.
Mathematics (the simplest language of humankind) is abused like some kind of sport. 'Do 'exercises' 1 through to 50 by next Wednesday or else'

Biology, Chemistry and Physics are segregated as though they are different subjects...
If you look closely into one, you will see the other two.

Our society is so self absorbed that the most important thing going is NOT the beauty of the cosmos or watching the sunset or swimming in a river, but something else.
It's a kind of sick...adulterated tradition, perverted by it's own values of economic sensibility.
Nowadays we are spending money on money. The old trite ethics are coming to the foreground and I'm hoping to witness the fallout.

 

enk,

Are you really 21? Have you ever survived on only the things that you yourself have grown? Do you have a greenhouse? Have you ever worked on a farm??? Maybe you work on one of those magic farms where everyone lives long and fruitful lives eating nothing but presto potatoes and invincible spinach.

Also, you can't say that practicing always makes someone into a great musician. Some people will get it right away and be encouraged by their quick progress... I've met people who can hear an extended guitar solo once and reproduce it perfectly within an hour. Likewise, there are people who have no trouble remembering all the terminology that makes for a great scientist, people who are physically agile and strong, and people who are natural wordsmiths. People like this usually make great students, but they are also the least in need of education... they basically teach themselves. But the environment... as well as the encouragement... helps a lot. In fact, a lot of the time I find myself in awe of these people and their abilities.

On the other hand, most people will practice and practice until they're pretty good, but they will never become a professional. These people are often the majority. And some people just won't be able to do it at all. These people are a minority, and are in need of the most encouragement. But don't think for a second that no one will be able to tell where you belong... if it is there to begin with, intelligence and excellence will always manifest naturally in someone's progress, whether it's refined or not... and while some asshole teacher might feel threatened by that, most will recognize it and with a little luck, be able to steer it in the right direction.

The point of getting good grades isn't to 'pit people against each other', however I must admit that in many cases it's the only way to motivate some people to learn (though its effectiveness can be overruled by the kind of defeatist, dismissive attitudes evident in this thread)... most teachers I know keep students' grades secret, and the competition happens by itself. It's a social thing, not a direct product of the system. A grade is intended as a measure of progress, nothing more. If you have a problem with a specific teacher, then that's an individual matter, not cause to tear the whole system down.

I'm no conservative ready to jump to the defense of our 'noble institutions', but on the other hand this topic strikes me as something started by some frustrated teenagers dying to rebel, and then latched onto by self-proclaimed free-thinkers, some of whom are very likely bitter over their own experiences in the education system.

If you ask me, and I know you're going to think this is harsh, but the wrong students have waaayyy too much power in the education system nowadays, and the teachers are basically powerless. They've been reduced to scapegoats and deliverers of information... teachers are the face of the institution, and they get blamed for everything that goes wrong. Parents blame you if their child isn't learning, as if your entire class should revolve around their precious little angel. They blame you if their child hit some other kid in the eye and you said or did something that hurt his or her feelings. And the fact that any discipline is almost completely out of the question makes it extremely difficult to maintain a semblance of order. And yes, people resent you... because it's somehow your job to make sense of their children's lives when their parents can't or won't do it.

This is a generalization, of course, but it seems to be that a lot of young people nowadays don't want to be challenged-- they want to be accommodated... and when that doesn't happen, they get upset or bored. Which is not to say that they are entirely wrong, or that free expression shouldn't be encouraged... just that a lot of it is misplaced frustration over the natural obstacles of growing up. If we accommodate students too much, they will not grow up, and continue to expect everything to come to them naturally, often harbouring unrealistic fantasies about wandering off into the woods and everything magically being wonderful. I'm sure life would be interesting, but it wouldn't necessarily be better... and it could be extremely short as well.

Being a teacher, dealing with young people, interacting with them and being a part of their lives, you inevitably develop a good sense of character. You realize that a lot of students, in their naturally competitive and self-centered way of being wish they could be as recognized as their over-achieving peers. But instead of admitting that perhaps they might not be focussing or putting forth the effort they could be, they want to see your evaluations of their progress as an unfair judgment.

And please, don't think for a moment that children, especially Western children, don't place themselves at the exact center of the universe in their minds. This is simple psychology-- children are being taught that they are special, wonderful little angels... if not by their parents, then by the media... and a lot of them have a hard time getting over that.

Added to this is the fact that one's entire school career as a young person is an unending battle with things like social status and identity... and every single one of them has a burning need to feel special, to be accepted, to have people love them and think they're cool. Don't think for a moment that children, especially Western children, don't place themselves at the exact center of the universe in their minds... everyone wants to know that someone out there believes in them... if not for who they are, then for who they could be. Sadly, only a few of them can be truly recognized as such... because cruel as it is, that's life.

After a few years, your average teacher can walk into a classroom and already know which students have drive, focus, creativity, goals, critical thought, good socialization, confidence, etc. It becomes very easy to pick out the ones who will do well. Every expression, every gesture, every posture... they are all being read by your teacher, and they are all indicators of who you are and how well you will probably do.

Like it or not, capitalist society accommodates the strong-- those who have the most to offer to society are most likely to get the most out of it. If you want to give up on that, don't expect any sympathy. If you want to change that from within, then be prepared to be tested, and don't back down from a challenge. If you want to threaten that society from the outside, be prepared to meet heavy opposition. Obviously, don't give up on your dreams... but know how to fulfill them, don't just rely on your own urges... be patient and take the time to figure out what you really want and how you're going to get it. Cliched as it is, it's so easy to be critical, but so hard to really change things... and giving up doesn't change anything.

If you think you have all the answers, prove it...

 

Teachers are getting the brunt of responsibility, negativity, and blame, but it's because they're the pawns.

Students are putting to use all the materialistic bullshit learned in school, and just scrambling for the top, wether it involves playing fair or using dirty tricks, which sometimes get found out, or the kids exagerate to come out the winner in a battle of trust.

 

I have found through experience that the significance of the education institution has only shown itself to me after I removed myself from it.

I went to the forest and try to live there as a hermit. I only lasted a single sleepless night.
I realized that the world that I was trying to escape had already figured my problems out and was trying It's best to help me.
Rather than complete Isolation I would rather be a contributor. Rather than abandon the world and it's problems I figured I might be able to fix them, for myself and others.

I have returned to school and manage by through the development of interest. The motivation required can be self administered, to do this I make my interest correlate with the subject matter.

From observation comes understanding, for this to be expressed it must be explainable through the terms of language.
Physics works upon models that were conceived as tools to be used collectively. Through it's presence in a community it has evolved
It is a language and because of that we can make statements, we can string together sentences to form a narrative and therefore tell stories

For instance; Molecular biology is told through the language chemistry.
Chemistry is told through Physics
and physics is told through maths, which has been described as the handmaiden of logic.

The sciences are as much to do with creativity as a Life drawing class, this goes relatively unspoken.

Hmm this is a good example...though I still think that the test is a projection of insecurity. If someone is genuinely interested in something they are only distracted by tests

Yep I am 21, and yes I visit the supermarket =X

 

Education isn't a bad thing, it's just a set path on how to succeed in our current societal jungle. The top predators of this jungle use it as a subtle indoctrination/recruitment tool, while the players below use it to manifest their tiny dreams.

The only truths in life are health, food, shelter, happiness, and love. Anything else is an attempt to get people to believe in your system for attaining these things.