The Psychedelic Revolution

Apparently they account for more than you know, if you truly believe nature being the most conducive environment to spirituality and life is "self-evident".
With that statement, you are taking your individual perspective for granted and trying to set it up as objective, and it's honestly kind of sad. The understanding that different people thrive in different environments is extremely basic, there is nothing greater or lesser than one compared to the other. If anything, I'd say man's place in the city is his natural environment now. How long do you think the average person would last alone in the forest?

What are you talking about "were supposed to be able to accomplish"? What does that even mean? It presupposes that there was some meaning or some plan.
What does "spiritual" even mean?
Evolution is not about physical conditioning, it's about survival. And guess what, cannons have a hell of a lot to do with survival. So does killing each other.
You see, the thing is, if you truly understood nature, you'd realize that brutally killing each other is what nature really is at it's most basic, and our constant struggle to move forward into huge cities that we build for ourselves and our need to pollute the planet is nature's doing in the first place.
That's our true nature, did you think it was something like trees and wind?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/23/grigory-perelman-rejects-1m-dollars

It's true that words like good, bad, right, wrong, spirituality, bla, bla, and bla are insignificant. I just think there are huge pockets of stagnancy in life's potential.

There isn't anything to see here, let evolution take it's course.

 

Sounds somewhat like a communist thought to me. It doesn't work like that though Unfortunately if the world was perfect and everyone was at peace or in the same mindframe, it would change. Because I don't know about you, but me and my friends like to mix things up sometimes just to see what happens. Chaos is beautiful sometimes (not the violent parts). I like to purposely get my wife mad sometimes just to see how she reacts

 

how long can the average person last in the forest!? ... how long can the average city last on the planet? the 1950's fantasy was great while it lasted... with its safe suburban homes, 2 cars in the garage, full tanks of gas, fridge full of food. it was never sustainable ...its time was always borrowed from the future. its not natural, its the opposite. its been built to be the opposite because man fears nature. people are even afraid of the dirt these days!


idk, i just think its real silly to neglect the garden because theres food at the market. the market has a price, and its going to continue to rise until people realize what sustainability really means.

 

It is natural. It is what we as a species have naturally done. How can this not be natural when we are a natural creature who creates all of this for itself? What do you think "nature" refers to? Pretty bird songs and swaying grass? That isn't nature, it's only a part of it.
People aren't "afraid" of nature, it just isn't their natural environment anymore.
We live in a social structure now, where everyone has different roles and everyone must perform those roles together to make the whole thing work. At the end of the day, the fact is that the majority of people could not sustain themselves if they were alone in the wild, and even if they could, their life expectancy would probably go down due to the loss of technology, modern medicine, and the introduction of all kinds of dangers.
There isn't anything wrong with that, it's just who we are now. Evolution occurs out of necessity, and here we are, where is the wrongness?

 

nature to me it defined by its cycles. man has intentionally stepped outside of those cycles in an attempt to seek comfort from himself and his natural world.

yes they are afraid. absolutely they are. people are freaked out by nature at its most basic level. when walking in nature most people are afraid to even put a plant in their mouths. *gasp* "it dirty! what if its poison?! its probably got germs!"
people are afraid of what the insides of a deer feel like. people are afraid of the rain and the wind and the dark. people are afraid of nature because it reminds them of their own mortality

it has always been this way. it is natural to our species.

i believe this is true. call the consequences natural selection.

im not going to argue right or wrong. it is as it is. but we should at least be honest with ourselves and know that the way we choose to live is fragile and temporary.

im not sure about the "evolution occurs out of necessity" comment. ours has been driven by comfort and not survival for quite some time now.

 

our future needs a blend of the two.

we need to stop destroying and neglecting the actual "natural" world around us (tropical forests, oceans, etc.) because it has punished us for treating it the way we've treated it.

Our cities don't need to disappear, but we could definitely do with less pollution and smog that the "classic" big city represents.

We just need to blend the two worlds together, that's all. Like using algae as a fuel source (or so i've heard).

And i could picture like more organic robots and machinery in the future.

But we shouldn't neglect one and praise the other. We gotta cherish both the city and the forests because they're both pretty crucial in the modern world.

 

yes!

 

If that is what he has done, he has done so naturally.

Afraid to feel the guts of a deer because they are afraid of their mortality?
Maybe they just don't like the feeling of something slimy and wet on their hands. There doesn't have to be some super deep reason to everything. People fear things they don't understand, so if anything I'd say people were more afraid of nature in the past. I don't like to sit out in the rain not because it reminds me of my own mortality, I don't like to sit out in the rain because it fucking sucks.

How do you know that? You've been alive for 24 years, what kind of time-frame is that to make a judgment on how modern evolution is unfolding? Adaptations for survival have been documented, saying they happen for comfort is just making things up.
Evolution is not driven by comfort. Comfort is contentment, and when you are content there is no reason to change or evolve. Just because we haven't sprouted a third arm something doesn't mean evolution isn't occurring out of necessity. There is more than just a physical component to evolution, and in the modern world, man is extremely comfortable concerning his own physicality. It's in other areas that there is room for improvement, and going back to ancient times that we have come from anyways is not improvement, it's backtracking.

 

i%2

 

And I think you have an improper fixation on what "nature" really means.
^ this has been one of my main points all along.
What is "in accordance with nature"? What do you think nature is, wildlife? Forests? Wind?
Like I said before, that isn't nature, only a part of it. Man and what man does is in accordance with nature.

If you honestly think a mother wouldn't kill something to get meat to feed her starving children, or that a hungry man living on the streets wouldn't, I don't know what to say.
Having food supplied is just part of the big machine, it's a convenience, and it frees up time to allow people to do other thing. Don't think for a second that someone wouldn't slay some beast if they were hungry enough. When everyone is working together to supply things for everyone else, that is when time is freed up and people can follow higher pursuits. There isn't much time for music or art when you spend 20 hours a day stalking a deer in the woods.

None of those things sound like fear or suppression of nature, they just sound like common sense.
Umbrellas to keep from getting a cold, sunscreen to prevent skin damage, lawnmowers to keep an orderly lawn and maintain territory (something extremely natural), bug spray to um, not get bit by parasites, flashlights to see where the hell you are going, haircuts to maintain a social appearance that has been deemed acceptable.
I just don't see the problem or the fear in any of those things.

ALL evolution is about necessity. Evolution does not occur if there is no problem that needs to be addressed. Evolution is a force of nature, and things like that don't just happen for no reason. Technological and social evolution still happen out of necessity, entertainment is to quiet the mind, something everyone needs, physicality is not the only crucial point in a human's life.

 

yea but smoking DMT is the only REAL necessity that a human being could ever have anyway. so.....

 

as iv said, to me nature is defined by its cycles. seed, sprout, tree, fruit, rot.
spring, summer, fall, winter.
birth, life, death. nature is cyclical. natural means being in accordance with the cyclical nature of existance.

man trys very hard at being linear. that is where i think man is not in accordance with nature. an easy example of our failure to realize the importance of the our cyclical nature on a basic level would be our farming practices. our farms do not feed the soil, and so our farmland is degraded. this isnt a sustainable way to cultivate food. you have to honor the decomposition (rot/winter/death) aspect of the soil cycle.

well, i guess what im trying to say is that its convienent for us not to look at the dying process, because this part of nature is difficult.

it all seems kind of neurotic and unnessesary to me.
i used silly examples, to make a joke of humans resistance to nature.
lets think of ones that manifest as unhealthy side effects of nature resistance, ones that hit closer to home...
how about mothers who go to the hospital and schedule c-sections or take drugs, because they fear or are uncomfortable with birth.

or how bout sedated and senile grandma plugged into all those machines in the nursing home because we are afraid of death.

and whats with women fucking up their reproductive system with birth control pills, because they fear conception? nobody ever taught them lunar entrainment?

people being afraid of drinking water that isnt dead and in a bottle. while our natural water sources are further polluted by empty water bottles.

these are all example of man resisting nature in an unhealthy way, all these examples are very common to the collective, and you know we could go on like this for a while about all kinds of things.

i still call bullshit. the problems that evolution addresses havent always been about nessesity for us. the driving force has been comfort for many things. capitolism...the individual and collective accumulation of wealth has been what has shaped the western world, this is comfort driven.

 

i guess for me the argument (as far as it has deviated from the original post) comes down to what is sustainable and healthy for ourselves and our planet. the natural world is consistant and sustainable. i dont think everything man does is natural simply because man is a product of nature. im not advocating that we move back into the treetops and live like our ancesters. im not anti technology or anti city. i just think a better balance needs to be integrated. i think collectively man has deviated from the natural order of sustainablity in an attempt to sheild himself from the aspects of his nature that his is uncomfortable with, and i think this is responsible for the extremes and imbalances that have manifested.

 

what in the heck is lunar entertainment?

 

It's hard to observe something cyclical when you are a part of the cycle you are trying to observe.
Yes, we can all sit around for a year, watch the seasons change four times and repeat themselves and then say nature is cyclical.
But how is our race not cyclical? Things rise and fall, wax and wane. You say we try to avoid things like death, but what doesn't? I mean, what's your point? How is avoiding death not natural?

Not only is that behavior natural, it also isn't exclusive to humans. Everything that is alive is programmed to avoid death.

At this point, I feel as though I'm not interchanging ideas with someone but have rather been forced into a position of defending humanity from an attitude of self-loathing.
How apathetic must one be to call into question an elderly person and their family's desire to hook "senile grandma into all those machines"?
It's extremely easy to comfortably sit on a mass-manufactured chair typing on a computer inside a home built by strangers whom you've never met, whose temperature is regulated, and say how humanity isn't natural. It's easy to talk about "fear of death" when you are in the prime of your life and assume that you aren't going to die tomorrow.
I guess I just don't understand why you use these specific examples of people's personal fear to "make a joke of humans resistance to nature" when those fears are entirely natural in the first place.

Accumulation of wealth seems pretty survival driven to me. If you only have appetite enough for one apple, yet you have two, do you eat one and throw the other away, or eat one and save the other for tomorrow? Same idea.
It's like your terminology just loosely allows us to go from discussing evolution to capitalism to whatever for the sake of proving a point. This conversation is kind of spiraling out all over the place.

 

DMT man...it's all that matters. ever. i'm telling you...

 

Um, no.

 

lol, i had to throw that one in there.

its basically using the light from the moon when its full (or a nightlight or lamp) to entrain a ladies cycle consistantly with the phases of the moon. so you know accuratly when she's fertile and when its safe to fuck like rabbbits.

 

im not really interested in the argument at this point or the way it has evolved neo. i think we've been reading into each other wrong and splitting hairs unnessesarily. im not saying it isnt natural to avoid death, only that it is unhealthy to ignore its reality or not offer it the respect it deserves as a natural part of existance. im also not against things like computers and chairs, only in some of the ways in which the materials were aquired. sustainability is what im talking about, because sustainability is required if we want these things. there isnt any other way.

i concur