The Psychedelic Revolution

i dun ned a dictionary 2 speel.

it's inescapable, until you become liberated. rather, the purpose of the cycle is liberation.

that understanding is limited because it is limited to human percpetion and the scientific method. the scientific method asks questions which form a biased, and impartial view, of nature which misses out on the whole. you poke, and the response will be a result of the way in which you poke. but what about the aspects which are not a response?

the reason i hold the views i do is because they are backed up by real life experience, and i have met people that hold the just about all the views that every one of you hold, and seen what it produces. but i guess, that is nothing i can prove over a forum.

i used someone else's words there (for the most part) to explain that because it was explained so well. it's not the messenger that matters, but the message. but all the responses in this thread except for that are my own words.

strength through adversary?

 

According to YOUR philosophy.

What the hell else are you going to go by????

You are completely and totally missing the point of most all that I have said.

Essentially what the heck else can us humans go by to understand and act in this universe BUT our perceptions???

Like it or not, there is no way around these laws of physics unless you have found a way to access another universe, which is hard considering that just by definition this "universe" is all there is. Trying to go outside of it and the laws that govern it is futile.
But, it's all tentative and something could always come along that completely proves me wrong on all counts. I'm ready and willing to accept that, are you?

You keep wanting to chase wisps of steam hoping that they will provide the SUBSTANCE that is needed to validate your viewpoints. I at the very least can rest in the knowledge that my current viewpoints have the advantage of being able to be VERIFIED and EXPERIENCED by OTHERS in a PREDICTABLE fashion.

All you out there that dismiss the scientific method because it does not support your "religious" viewpoints are WAYYY off target.

Sorry but until you can provide me with something more concrete than just what you "feel" then I will always disagree with you.

I thought almost exactly like you when I was younger and spent years "searching" for things that cannot be found, as you will learn someday.


Just enjoy life AS IT IS and quite looking for some ethereal meaning to everything.

Maybe you should look into science and quantum physics Desos, then extrapolate the findings into all aspects of life and existence. You may be shocked at just how "spiritual" a lot of modern science is.
But you don't do that, you just discount it out of hand because you would rather hold onto some set of beliefs that can never be proven or disproven. In my mind that is the insecure approach and response.
I welcome new evidence that proves me wrong, thats how you learn and grow.
I'm sorry, but I've already traveled the road your on and found it to be woefully lacking.

 

ask yourself, did you ever stop searching? or did you just swallow another bitter pill?

 

Oh, I'm still "searching" you could say.
I just learned some roads lead nowhere even if all the twists and turns and convolutions would suggest otherwise.

That is what a lot of eastern religious thought is to me. layer upon layer of words and word games that ultimately say nothing. (see Mooji)
There is some value of course, it just isn't all there is.

Plus you referr to Hindu religious thought often, well I could come up with a patheon of Gods and shit if I was eating hash all day to. and any religion that condones people starving in the street while steaks and burgers walk all around them is bassackwards to say the least. The flowery words may sound all nice and deep, but the real world application as seen in India is a joke. Not only that but a religion that also worships rats and thinks that drinking cow or rat piss brings you closer to God?? totally whacked in my opinion.

 

yep pretty much. as is the story with all religion. what the world needs to see is a real world application of such ideals.

but it's impossible, because people try to lean on their own understanding and their own strength, and thus they suffer the inevitable failure of being human. now, if they could just surrender their strength to god however...

which alot of people won't do. because they are so battered and beaten that they don't beleive there is a god.

 

I carnt spel!!!!!!
ahahaha

 

I'm disappointed nobody commented on my old man routine earlier in the thread.





(better watch it pb, your insecurity is showing)

*Pb quickly whirls around trying too get a look at his ass*

"Really! Where, can everybody see it!?
I'm mortified!"


*pb slowly shuffles away with head hanging low feeling rejected and embarrassed*

 

Desos, that is EXACTLY WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT!

Life may not be a joke, but it sure is humerous.
Lighten up and enjoy it.
Your recent line of thinking is really freakin depressing.

 

We don't have to justify Hitler. Are you so naive and stubborn that you actually think the Universe itself hasn't already justified Hitler before he was even born?

Lol, thanks for making it "easier" for me, but it isn't your terminology that makes you Judeo-Christian, it's the essence of your thoughts.
You can play up your language with words that are attractive to you, but it doesn't change what sort of ideals and attitudes are reflected in your "message", and don't be confused, it's one heavily suffused with themes of judgment, guilt, the need for redemption, blame, and not to mention you are stuck in a particularly nasty paradigm of "good vs. evil".
Your posts ooze with Judeo-Christian thought, except in your case, it's only the bad parts of it and none of the good. You'll have to do more than just infuse your speech with words like "samsara" and "dharma" (lol) in order to get around that. I'm not adverse to your posts because they are Judeo-Christian, I'm adverse to them because they openly embrace all the negative qualities of the Judeo-Christian paradigm, while attempting to masquerade as something else.

 

Wonderfully succinct.

 

I agree. Nail on the head neodude!

 

The harsh reality of it from where I sit is that as far as real world application of religious ideals Christianity has got all others beat by a mile. In the day to day grind of real life, Christianity has done more to benefit mankind than most of the others. Why? Because the main premise and edict from all it's teachings isn't contained in some esoteric, meditative state or trying to hide or escape from the suffering in the world such as you seem to want to do. Rather it goes out and confronts it head-on and sees suffering and instead of lecturing one about detachment from desire to end suffering it teaches feed the hungry, clothe the naked and comfort the afflicted. Who gives a rats ass what their desires are?

So Desos you contradict yourself because in one breath you say the world needs to change and we need to stop the suffering, then the next breath you are espousing beliefs and quoting a religious system that doesn't do shit to actually alleviate suffering, but would rather contemplate it and blame the sufferer. Total FAIL!!!

I guess you need to hear this again;
1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.As Frank Zappa would say, THAT is the crux of the biscuit. Basically put up or shut up.

You can meditate all day long and try to break free from this cycle of birth and death as you say, but if you aren't ACTING and TAKING ACTION with no other motivation then selfless love towards another, you might as well be masturbating. It has the same end result, it makes YOU feel good but can leave things a little messy in the end and really doesn't produce anything.

 

So mr PB, do you think the need to 'search' or the nature of un-fulfillment is also a true part of LIFE? Or do you think there's a way around that?

Others are welcome to throw in too.

 

Well let me ask you a question.
Have you ever experienced a feeling of being unfulfilled?
Have you ever experienced the need to search for meaning and answers?


Of course you have, so has every other human being that has ever lived or ever will live.
So if that is the case then without a doubt it is a true part of life and should be embraced for what it is and learned from just the same as fulfillment and the answer to questions that prompted the search.

Same holds true for any and all suffering in the world.

If it exists and is capable of being experienced then of course it is a true part of life.

I thought that was so obvious that it needed no explanation whatsoever, guess I was wrong.

My contention with Desos' viewpoint is the very fact that he thinks there are aspects of existence that are inherently "bad" or "wrong".

If you can experience it, then it is a "true part of life", yet neutral in it's true nature. It is us humans with our huge pre-frontal cortex that assigns meaning and quantifies "things" into categories of good or bad.
That is a trait that is completely human, no other creature on Earth has the need to assign "rightness" or "wrongness" to a thing or event, it just is and they deal with it according to there instincts.

Here is an example. We recently had one of our cats give birth to four kittens about 10 days ago. Tuesday I noticed that she had pushed two of them out of the box they were in. One was dead and the other not far behind, it died a few hours later. Why they died we don't know, the other two are doing fine thus far. My point is that we would view that as sad and how could a mother push aside it's own offspring and let them die? Because the cat lacks the huge Pre-frontal cortex that humans do and lacks the ability to view the situation as "bad" and her actions as "wrong". She was just acting instinctualy and removed them from the other healthy kittens, knowing they were going to die and never went back to them. All that is solely based on an imperative that all life has, namely the continuation of the species.

A lot of so called "higher" behavior of humans can be distilled down to that same imperative. My wife and I had a discussion about the notion of romantic love and the role it plays in that imperative in humans. But that is a topic for another post.

 

Why search if it's futile and infinite? If I could stop the need for searching, I personally would (or at least I think I do -- could turn into one of those 'be careful for what you wish for' things).

So I suppose why I was asking is what's your take on that? Do you sometimes not get fed up at our inherent need to always yearn for the non-present?


I suppose I should have added 'NECESSARY' part of LIFE (which is why I wrote "or do you think there's a way around it" afterward).

*My bad on lack of clarification. You can respond @ another time (instead of having to do so twice).

 

I think the goal should be to see how many pages we can make of this thread...

 

and christianity also has one of the worst track records for having killed more people than just about any other religion. not to mention they have also been heavily involved in government ever since they stopped being persecuted around the time of king constantine. they even have a seat in the U.N. council! this is vastly contradictary to the teachings of christ. he tought a seperation between church and state. christians don't even understand the fundamental precepts of their own religion. christianity is corrupt.

i agree. i thought i already said this:

""Everything is permissable" -- but not everything is beneficial.. "Everything is permissable" -- but not everything is constructive." 1Corinthians 10: 23-24

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been made clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:18-20

and if you read on and consider your cat analogy...

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claim to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like animals and reptiles" Romans 1:21-22

the seach implies just that, something that we are searching for. thus the thing we are searching for is also a part of life, once we find it.

"Wake up everyone! It's not too late
To save the remnants of our hearts,
So stop giving up our last shot at love,
Our only chance to find the meaning of
The beat beneath the blood

We laugh at honor and are shocked when
We find knives in our backs
We follow those who cheat and steal
Look in my eyes, you won't find your way back
Our only compass smashed under our own heels, under our iron will

Reason abandoned to appetites and addicts arms
Shotguns and silence have always been the best of charms

The abolition of man is within the reach of science
But are we so far gone that we'll try it?"

 

No, I think that Christianity stands out in that fashion due to the fact that it has the most detailed history. I promise if you dug deeper you would find similar histories among other religions. What about Islam?

Way to quote out of context, Desos. The context of the above passage was at a time when many converts to Christianity were Jews and Idol worshippers and as such they were having personal issues about other Christians eating non-kosher foods and food offered to idols.
Pauls meaning in what you quoted was telling christians that were secure in thier faith NOT to do things that would offend or cause another Christian who is not as secure to falter and do something that to them may be a "sin". It really has to do with eating pork, dude.

the above quote in context:

1 Corinthians 10: 14-33
Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake, the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

Kind of has a different meaning than the one you intended, now doesn't it? Actually it has the opposite meaning of what you intended.

Again, you have no idea of the meaning of this passage.
This passage is actually referring to the constellations and the zodiac.

the zodiac is one of those oddities that pre-dates written history. If you start at Virgo (the virgin) as the first sign and end at Leo (the lion) (of the tribe of Judah maybe) You have the entire Gospel story laid out. Some believe that is what the sphinx is, a key to the zodiac, head of a woman (virgin Mary) and body of a lion (Christ).
Every constellation has minor constellations associated with it. Many of the names of the constellations and stars in them also pre-date written history.
All of the minor ones and stars have significance in this telling.
So "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven" and " Although they claim to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like animals and reptiles"
Also takes on a different meaning doesn't it?

For those of you that think I am smoking crack, I urge you to check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Glory-Stars-E-Raymond-Capt/dp/0934666024"]Amazon.com: Glory of the Stars: A Study of the Zodiac (9780934666022): E. Raymond Capt: Books


And how the hell does that even begin to relate to my cat analogy?????


Desos, your grasping at straws now.
I have read and studied the Bible since I was 18. Having read the New Testament at least 15 times in various versions, you would be well advised to NOT try to twist Biblical text out of context to prove your position. I WILL call you on it and basically you won't come out looking very knowledgeable.

Now, do you have anything concrete to say today?

 

well i don't know much about Islam, but all i see is wars. you can't justify killing.

it still holds the meaning that the part which i quoted is the crux of the matter as to how to deal with unbelievers and idolaters. not, whether eating pork is permissable or not, but rather, that the matters of dealing with those who sin are all permissable, but not all are benficial.

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

thus this would suggest that not only is there an indifference between events among believers, but also among non-believers. although, that even though there is an indifference in events, not all actions are beneficial. thus creating an essential understanding of what is 'right', even among the inherent unity underlying reality.

it means that you look to cats to understand the essential morality of life, or atleast how exemplified in the post i quoted you in. we are created in the image of god, not cats, or stars.