the PROBLEM with islam

Okaaaaaaaaaay! While we wait for the rebuttle, let’s compare some additional documentary evidence from official Islamic and Judeo-Christian Biblical sources.


Famous Last Words

When Jesus’ died, He said: "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." -Luke 23:34.

When Mohammed died, he said: "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets." Bukhari, Vol. 1, 427.

One died forgiving and the other cursing.

Mohammed lived killing those who did not convert to his religion who, presumably, are in hell eternally.

Jesus was killed so others might live eternally in heaven.

Ah, yes, karmic truth and poetic justice. So yingy yangy.

 

If you are a true follower of Jesus, then why not forgive, accept and tolerate, like he did? I am sure Christ never went around belittling other people's faith. When something is so important and precious to a person as religion, even if you don't agree with then, you must have the sensitivity and respect for their sentiments. Otherwise instead of bringing a transformaton of people into loving, forgiving creatures, you only breed more resentment, hurt and anger.

 

Thank you for your question and I would be glad to answer it.

Before I explain the khomeini thing I wonder if you[christians] hate jews and would like to kill them all?
Why would I say such a thing? because one of your "scholars" said this:

Eternal Nature inexorably revenges the transgressions against her laws. Therefore, I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator: By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." -Adolf Hitler

One problem though, Hitler isn't exacly a great source for christianity is he?(Do you see where Im getting here). How dare you quote a fanatic like khomeini and then say thats islam??!!
A man is NOT allowed to have sex with a girl who hasn't reached puberty and certaintly not a cow or any of the like, this man speaks without evidence - He is a SHIA!

The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) had several wives just as you noted but did you know that every wife that he ever married except this girl(aisha) had been previously married? He was praised for this action, the man took care of widows and here you come and dear to admonish him for that. Do you know what people thought of widows in the pre-islamic period of arabia? Their source of income had perished and who would take care of their children anyway? You mentioned the fact that Aisha(may Allah be pleased with her) was young at the time but why did you not mention the fact that his first wife was a little less than 20 years OLDER than him?

This is nothing strange to me as I see no problems with old women marrying young boys or vice versa, the same applied here in Europe just a few years ago and whats the problem if she is mature enough to have a babie?

You think incest is horrible(I presume) but your children may think its a normal thing in the future just like homosexuality was more repelling to westerners a decay ago but now i'ts more accepted(in the West). Thats why people didn't object to this marriage with Aisha, it was a normal thing and I still view it as normal as long as she has reached puberty and as long as this is through marriage.

Please get your facts right; The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) last words were not those you wrote but these:
“No soul of a Prophet is taken until he has been shown his place in Paradise and then he is given the choice.” When death approached him while his head was on my thigh, he became unconscious and then recovered consciousness. He then looked at the ceiling of the house and said, “O Allaah! (with) the highest companions." I said (to myself), “He is not going to choose (to stay with) us.” Then I understood what he meant when he said that to us when he was healthy. The last words he spoke were, "O Allaah! (with) the highest companions.”

Among his last words were those you posted and this was a grave warning to muslims so they would not take his grave as a place of worship like christians and jews did.

 

Interesting, because that argument comes back on you: Jesus was killed so others might live in heaven...but only those who were of his religion. The rest, the unbelievers, just as in Mohammed's case, burn in hell, according to the bible.

 

Good Evening Everyone.


Let the games begin.

I respond: Oh, but I dare so much more. I also dare to quote the following from the CIA World Fact Book that the population of Iran is: "...69,018,924 (July 2004 est.)...Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 9%..." Of these millions of Muslims, the overwhelming majority were and are accepting of Khomeini and his successors’ religious utterances.

I respond: (1) Girls can come to puberty as young as 7 years of age, therefore, a girl of 7 having menstruation is ready for marital sex according to those of Islamic persuasion. (2) Argue with Khomeini's ghost or with his successors. I merely quote his book which is mentioned by quite a few Muslims who are ashamed of him. Do your own homework and do a Google search for yourself on the matter of Khomeini's utterances. (3) Are you a Sunni Muslim or, perhaps, of the Nation of Islam that you rant that a Shia man is without evidence?

We shall now enter the following documentary evidence: Exhibit A from
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html , the following:


"...Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading "modernist" apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which cAishah married the Prophet(P) is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are. At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of cAishah is "not found in the Qur'ân", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'ân and the Sunnah - and the Qur'ân tells us that. For those wanting (or needing) to learn more about the status of the Sunnah in Islam, please read An Introduction to the Sunnah, by Suhaib Hasan. Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some "modern" and "cultured" Muslims that there are four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and three ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim clearly state that cAishah was "nine years old" as the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet(P). These ahâdîth, with only slight variation, read as follows:
cAishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Sahîh al-Bukhârîî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)

...This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about cAishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old"



(Psssssssssst. Um, you do speak Arabic, I take it?)

Thank you very much. You may step down from the witness box.

I respond: (1) I never mentioned, much less, admonished him for anything regarding widows. Have you a reading comprehension problem? (2) The sugar mama’’s (she was a rich merchant) advanced age is irrelevant to Aisha’’s 4-5 years of age bethrothel and her 9 years of age loss of virginity.

I respond: Thank you for fessing up before this noble assembly, including the peanut gallery, to being of the opinion that as soon as girls are biologically capable of pregnancy regardless of how young puberty sets in, including 7, 8 & 9-year-olds, it is also acceptable that they may have sexual relations.

Thank you very much for your public sincerity.

I respond: Interesting, how the Islamic and Christian considerations regarding homosexuality seem to be running in opposite chronological directions.


Exhibit B from http://www.truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm, the following:

"...Mohammed promised his followers seven heavens in which:

They're cohabit with demure virgins...as beauteous as corals and rubies...full-breasted maidens for playmates...in the gardens of delight.... They're to lie face to face on jewelled couches, and be serviced by immortal youths...young boys, their personal property, as comely as virgin pearls.... We created the houris [dancing girls] and made them virgins, carnal playmates for those on the right hand.... We are going to wed them to dark-eyed houris. [The Koran 55:56; 55:58; 78:33; 56:12; 52:16-17, 24; 56:35-38; 52:20]


Each Muslim man, in exchange for a lifetime of mindless obedience, was to be rewarded after death with an unspecified number of pretty boys to bugger, plus eight heavenly houris, each more phallus-raising than the others and each endowed with the capacity to grow a new hymen after each bout of sexual recreation. The male chauvinist Muslim could thus satisfy his virginity fetish by deflowering them over and over again, for eternity. When one compares Mohammed's gardens of delight with the Christian heaven of harps and celibacy, it becomes apparent why significant numbers of Christian men turn Muslim while conversions the other way are almost non-existent. - William Harwood, Mythology's Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus, 248..."

I respond: Nit picking are we? "Among his last words were those you posted." Verily, thou hast recognized the truth of my words if not the exact order of their utterance that they were, indeed, among hs last. Yes? No? Yes? No? Hmmmmmmmmm ?


I don't get it. How do you connect his cursing Christians and Jews with a warning against idolizing his grave? Must be that reading comprehension problem again.



Parting Shots from the Koran:


God's curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God's own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers. Q 2:92-6


He that chooses a religion over Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost. Q 3:86


Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. Koran 9:73


Peace...Indeed.


Nitie Nite, all.

 

Let what games begin? My religion is my life and I don't understand what kind of games you are interested in playing here.

Before I start out I should mention that I am a follower of the sunna of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and I follow the way of his closes companions.
Frankly, I do not accept what Khomenei says as you(hopefully) do not accept what hitler said. Why do we not do this? Because both of them are lacking evidence from their religions.

This is a fatwa posted from islamqa.com (supervised by the well-known sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, student of great scholars from S.Arabia like ibn baz):

"The fact that it is permissible to marry a minor girl does not imply that it is permissible to have intercourse with her, rather the husband should not have intercourse with her until she becomes able for that. Hence(here comes the evidence) the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed consummating the marriage to ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her)."

I don't care how many iranis who follow this man just as I DO NOT CARE how many germans who followed hitler(there were alot of them so does this prove that christianity teaches "kill all the jews"?).Oh and by the way, around 90%(in the world) -its calculated- are sunni muslims.

I am not debating with you concerning her age, she was around 9 years old at the time of marriage and that was something normal and I still view it as normal. Once again, you may accept homosexuality but your grandfathers were discussed by it and you may hate incest but your grandchildren may accept it. Just a decay ago, people were married of in the west at the age of 10 and that was normal to them, so please do not impose your thoughts on what is morally correct about age differences on other societies.

And please do not use your imagination and change what is a CLEAR VERSE, il post it here:
17. Immortal boys will go around them (serving),
18. With cups, and jugs, and a glass of flowing wine,

How can this be interpreted to mean anything sexual? These boys are created by Allah(may he be exalted) for the people of paradise to serve them-homosexuality is a grave sin in islam and there is no proof for men having sex with males in paradise. By the way, the authentic hadith say that a man will have two women among the hoir and not 8 as you said. But Allah(may he be exalted) promises and he fulfills his promises that the one who does good, wether male or female will get his/her reward and not be treated injusticly.

71. The believers, men and women, are supporters of one another; they enjoin good, and forbid evil; they perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His mercy on them. Surely, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

72. Allah has promised the believers -- men and women, -- Gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein forever, and beautiful mansions in gardens of `Adn (Eden; Paradise). But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah. That is the supreme success[9.71-72]

Then, on that Day, not a soul will be wronged in the least, and ye shall but be repaid the meeds of your past Deeds[036.054]

The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) cursed jews and christians for establishing prayers at the graves of their prophets -involving in polytheism- just before his deat SO that the muslims wouldn't do the same with his body.

 

I respond: Don’t compare kumquats to cashews. Hitler was not a religious leader as was Khomeini and present company in Iran. Pity, Hitler was able to commit suicide. Far too easy way out for such a genocidal fiend.

I respond: (1) You have already stated that you see nothing wrong with sexual intercourse with a young girl as soon as she has her first menstruation and is, therefore, biologically ready for sex. (2) The actual EVIDENCE from Koranic QUOTES which include Aisha’s own words to the FACT that she was NINE YEARS OLD when Mohammed consummated the marriage. To
consummate a marriage means to have sexual relations with the spouse. Therefore, Mohammed delayed consummating the marriage to Aishah, as she herself states, until she was NINE years old. A nine-year-old, little, itty bitty, menstruating girl.

From http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm :


(3311) ‘‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and here dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2:3310,3311 p.716..."

She was still playing with dolls when she was taken to his house when she was in nine as his bride where he consummated the marriage when she was nine as she herself states.

The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) cursed jews and christians for establishing prayers at the graves of their prophets

I respond: From

http://www.cattail.nu/wraithproject/0201deathandshabah.html :

"...After the funeral prayer is performed, the deceased is placed in the grave with his body facing towards Mecca. Muslim graves tend to be simple and mostly-unadorned, with a mound of earth over the grave serving as a marker. Having a decorated headstone, or other permanent ornamentation, seems too much like an idol for many...

...The Prophet (PBUH) warned against making pilgrimages to the graves of Awlia (righteous persons: "Friends of God"), as Christians and Jews were cursed for turning the graves of their Prophets into places of worship. In spite of that, it's not uncommon for such pilgrimages to happen: more conservative Muslims frown upon such practices, though.

Some Muslims believe that a grave should never form the foundation of a mosque, or be anywhere near one. Others incorporate tombs within a mosque, or place their graveyards next to one. For example, a mosque in Medina was rebuilt to incorporate the tomb of the Prophet (PBUH)..."

Hmm, do as I say not as I do, is it?

Fortunately, we have written history (documentary evidence) to rely on for our consideration of the truth of Islam and homosexuality rather than your questionable and suspect apologetics.

From http://reactor-core.org/islamic-homosexuality.html :

But the Qur'an and hadith also have traces of the permitted homosexual desires of straight men. There is even a hadith in Bukhari, admittedly giving not the Prophet's opinion but that of Abu Jafar, according to which a pedophile is prohibited from marrying the mother of his boy-beloved if there is penetration:

(Bukhari LXII, 25) As for whom(ever) plays with a boy: if he caused him to enter him, then he shall not marry his mother. Arabic: feeman yal'abu bis-sabiyy: in 'adkhalahu feehi falaa yatazawwajanna 'ummahu.

(This rule is accompanied in the same chapter by prohibitions against a man marrying both a mother and her daughter.) Apparently according to this hadith, even sexual penetration of a boy is not considered sodomy, because if it was, surely the sodomite would have more worries than whether he could marry the boy's mother! Like whether he preferred to die by fire, stoning, or falling from a high tower! These are some of the punishments mentioned in the hadith for "doing as the people of Lut did."

From http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/sexafterdeath.html :

About the high society of Arabia during its heyday, Professor Philip K. Hitti wrties in his famous "History of the Arabs" (10th edition, p. 341):

"The servants were almost all slaves recruited from non-Muslim peoples and captured by force, taken prisoners in time of war or purchased in time of peace The white slaves ( Mamluk ) were mainly Greeks and Slavs, Armenaisn and Berbers. Certain slaves were eunuchs (Khisvan) attached to the service of the harem. Others termed Ghilman, who might also be eunuchs, were the recipients of special favour from their masters, wore rich and attractive uniforms and often beautified and perfumed their bodies in effeminate fashion. We read that Ghilman in the reign of al-Rashid, but it was evidently al-Amin who, following the Persian precedent, established in the Arabic world the Ghilman institution for the practice of unnatural sexual relations. A judge under al-Mamun used four hundred such youths. Poets like abu-Nuiwas did not disdain to give public expression to their perverted passions and to address amorous pieces of their composition to beardless young boys."

These historical facts conform to the highly erotic Koranic description of the paradisiac boys, who are ever-young, pretty like pearls, dressed in silk and brocades, and wear bracelets. Above all, like Ganymede they serve wine in cups of crystal. These boys are not servants as the Muslim scholars pretend because a servant can be old, ugly and poorly dressed.

The Persians (Iranians) had acquired love of homosexuality from their conquering master, Alexander the Great and his Greek soldiers. This practice was made lawful among the Arabs by the Koranic description of the beautiful boys: al-Rashid and al-Amin were prominent rulers and leaders of the Muslim world, which treated them as the Model of Behaviour. This is the reason that the Qazis (Muslim judges) who were expected to live, and dispense justice according to the principles of Islam, kept harems of boys unashamedly.

That was then, this is now and, now, the following update on Islamic homosexuality in the present.

From http://www.globalgayz.com/g-afghanistan.html :


"...Moreover, there is a strong streak of dandyism among Pashtuns males. Many line their eyes with kohl, stain their fingernails with henna or walk about town in clumsy, high-heeled sandals.

The love by men for younger, beautiful males, who are called halekon, is even enshrined in Pashtuns literature. A popular poem by Syed Abdul Khaliq Agha, who died last year, notes Kandahar's special reputation. "Kandahar has beautiful halekon," the poem goes. "They have black eyes and white cheeks."

But a visitor who comments on such things is likely to be told they are not signs of homosexuality. Hugging doesn't mean sex, locals insist. Men who use kohl and henna are simply "uneducated." Regardless, when asked directly, few deny that a significant percentage of men in this region have sex with men and boys. Just ask Mullah Mohammed Ibrahim, a local cleric.

"Ninety percent of men have the desire to commit this sin," the mullah says. "But most are right with God and exercise control. Only 20 to 50% of those who want to do this actually do it." Following the mullah's math, this suggests that between 18% and 45% of men here engage in homosexual sex--significantly higher than the 3% to 7% of American men who, according to studies, identify themselves as homosexual..."


The article is very informative and has several photos among them of an adult male Pashtun with black eye makeup a common practice for heterosexual males in that region.

By the way, the Pashtun are generally hanafi sunni Muslims. Surprise!


Now, let us turn our judgmental eyes upon the topic of Islam and the savagery of slavery, specifically, in the Sudan where it is a documented fact that Muslims of Arabic ancestry are paying Muslims of African ancestry for black slaves of non-Muslim religions.

From http://www.iabolish.com/today/background/sudan.htm :

"...Sudan is the largest country in Africa, covering 2.5 million square kilometers. Sudan means "land of the blacks" in Arabic, and for centuries black Africans were abducted in Sudan as part of the Arabian slave trade. Sudan's borders - drawn by the British during colonialism - encompass a predominantly Arab-Islamic north and a black African south of various faiths. Inter-ethnic conflict and civil war have plagued Sudan since its independence in 1956. A growing radical Islamic movement pressured the government to impose Sharia, or Islamic law, on all of Sudan in 1983 - at which time slave raids were reintroduced against black African villages in the south and Nuba Mountains. A 1989 military coup by radical Islamist General Omar el-Bashir spurred a dramatic increase in slave raids by Arab militia forces armed by the government.

Causes of Slavery
Slavery has deep roots in Sudan, and black southerners have been targeted by northern slave raiders for centuries. Located just below Egypt, Sudan offered a sizable population of potential black slaves for Arabian trade routes. Today's slave raids are a revival of that ancient practice, with Arab tribesman exhorted by the government to attack southern "infidels" in a self-declared "holy war."

Let me clarify that I am an equal opportunity offender with regards to any social wrongs committed in the name of any God with the following.

"...In the final analysis it is the liberal secular state, not the Bible (Torah & Koran), which we have to thank for ending slavery (& homophobia). Also, it is the liberal secular state, not the church (synagogue & mosque), which stands as the guarantor of freedom and human rights. The truth is that human rights were (and are being) achieved today not because of the Bible but in spite of it..."

Anyone can access the Koran online and read for themselves all the barbaric violence that it instructs its believers to inflict on non-Muslims. Islamic sacred scripture also prescribes barbaric violence such as stoning, burning, the cutting off head and limb for specific sins and which are part of Koranic religious law known as Sharia. Islam has also institutionalized the barbaric mutilation of the female clitoris to lessen female sexual pleasure. The Christian New Testament portion of the Bible does not instruct its believers to conquer and convert by the sword as does Islam.

What a difference between the recently deceased, peace-loving Pope who forgave his would-be Muslim assassin and the rabid, fatwa-murder-by-decree issuing Muslim clerics. Islam a religion of peace, indeed. NOT.

I could go on but why bother killing a gnat with an nuclear bomb?

You will, of course, continue ranting and yapping away regarding the unique righteousness and superiority of Islam over other religions, however, the internet provides translations of the Koran for all to read and come to their own conclusions and well as facts that are out of Islamic religious authority’s power to edit and censor regarding the acts of violence and savagery in Islamic countries.

Yes, indeed, the Truth will set us ALL free.

 

Yes... the Truth will set us all free. Interestingly, I find this thread on the day Pope John Paul II dies.

Christianity is responsible for the deaths of millions who would not convert, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists, etc etc ad nauseum.

So is Islam. So is Judaism. No one has clean hands, no one is innocent. How quickly some of you forget this. Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them. And repeat them we do, over and over an over.

It's not the average christian/muslim/jew on the street responsible for all of this killing. It's the extremist who follows the fanatic. Torquemada had his followers, as did Koresh, Khomeni, Hitler, Lenin, and yes, Meir and Begin.

Extremism germinates at the bottom but is fertilized from above. As is tolerance. So before you resume your feeble finger-pointing and petty name calling, please remember that the bible, the quran, the torah, the talmud and pretty much every eastern text all state that life, ALL LIFE is the most precious gift. Learn it, live it.

And stand in shame that a pagan reminded you of these facts.

 

What is it you do not understand? Stop quoting Khomeini, he is a shia and I do not care if he thinks what he thinks because(heres the point) it doesn't go along with islam.

1. He(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was dead, what is it he did?
2. Acually, his grave was in Aishas(may Allah be pleased with her) house and this house was neighbouring the mosque, so what happend was that the mosque expanded and now part of the house is inside the mosque.

I do not need to apologize. The quran forbids it, the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah) condemns it in authentic reports and there is a consensus among the great scholars, why should I apologize?

Where does it say this? I looked up your reference and found this:


Narrated 'Aisha: Abu Hudhaifa bin 'Utba bin Rabi'a bin Abdi Shams who had witnessed the battle of Badr along with the Prophet adopted Salim as his son, to whom he married his niece, Hind bint Al-Walid bin 'Utba bin Rabi'a; and Salim was the freed slave of an Ansar woman, just as the Prophet had adopted Zaid as his son. It was the custom in the Pre-lslamic Period that if somebody adopted a boy, the people would call him the son of the adoptive father and he would be the latter's heir. But when Allah revealed the Divine Verses: 'Call them by (the names of) their fathers . . . your freed-slaves,' (33.5) the adopted persons were called by their fathers' names. The one whose father was not known, would be regarded as a Maula and your brother in religion. Later on Sahla bint Suhail bin 'Amr Al-Quraishi Al-'Amiri--and she was the wife of Abu- Hudhaifa bin 'Utba--came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We used to consider Salim as our (adopted) son, and now Allah has revealed what you know (regarding adopted sons)." The sub-narrator then mentioned the rest of the narration

This is not even the sayings of a muslim, I doubt it if he even knows arabic. I already posted the verse about these boys serving the people of paradise in my last post, NOT, NOT, NOT having sex with them. Only a person with a sick imagination can see such a picture from such a clear verse.

I really don't care what they do, I follow the way of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and not the way of Pashtuns. The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) cursed those women who dress like men and those men who dress like women and thats enough as evidence.

Once again, I don't care, are you speaking about islam here in your posts or about people calling them selves muslim?

Do you seriously believe this? Where did this man get this from and where is the location "here"?

Judge our religion from its rules and not from the people claiming to be its followers, I have never in my life pointed a finger against a christian for what hitler did or something of the like. Oh and by the way, Hitler was a Roman catholic.

Acually in the Quran we find these rights long before any secular states formed them and some of these rights will be hard to find in the bible.

Rights for freedom of faith:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Quran 2.256]

Rights for animals:

[2245] Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: A prostitute saw a dog moving around a well on a hot day and hanging out its tongue Out of thirst. She drew water. for it, in her shoe and she was pardoned

It was narrated from Ibn `Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "A woman entered Hell because of a cat which she tied up and did not feed, nor did she allow it to eat of the vermin of the earth."

Rights of women:
These are the sayings of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)
"The believers who show the most perfect faith are those who have the best character and the best of you are those who are best to their wives"

"Let no Muslim man entertain any bad feeling against a Muslim woman. If he should dislike one quality in her, he will find another that is pleasing."

"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste"

Rights of slaves:
Islam did not start slavery, it restricted it and Allah(may he be exalted) promises a great reward for those who set them free.

It is not Birr(righteousness) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west; but Birr is the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set servants free, [Quran 2.177]

And such of your servants as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allah which He has bestowed upon you. And force not your slave-girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them, then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them).[Quran chapter Noor]

The famous companion of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) Ibn Abbas said: "Allah commanded the believers to help in freeing slaves.''

"I said to `Ata', "If I know that my servant has money, is it obligatory for me to write him a contract of emancipation'' He said, "I do not think it can be anything but obligatory.'' `Amr bin Dinar said: "I said to `Ata', `Are you narrating this from anybody' He said, `No,' then he told me that Musa bin Anas told him that Sirin, who had a lot of money, asked Anas for a contract of emancipation and he refused. So he went to `Umar (bin Al-Khattab), may Allah be pleased with him, and he said, `Write it for him.' He refused, so `Umar hit him with his whip and recited(interpretation of the meaning): give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. Then he wrote the contract.''

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."

I agree. Read the quran, it was the light that brought the arabs out from the darkness of polyheism and criminality.

Alif Laam Raa. A book which we have revealed to you (Muhammad) so that you may lead the people from out of the darknesses into the light by their Lord's leave to the path of the All-Mighty, the Praiseworthy." [Qur'an 14:1]

Acually there is no such thing as a translation of the Quran, rather this as explanation of its meaning. The quran only has one version and its arabic.

Acually, burning doesn't even exist in our religion as the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) forbade us in a hadith to punish with fire(your thinking of Talmud I think?).
An eye for an eye and a soul for a soul.

Now after this long discussion about islam let me try to explain what islam is, instead of explaining what its not.
The word Islam means to submit totally to God. This means that we follow what he orders us, we pray to him alone without any partners and this is the most important thing in islam.

May Allah guide your soul and then fill it with compassion and then admit you to the greatest of pleasures.

 

I respond: Wrong, twice over.


(1) To transmit writing from one language to another is to translate. The Koran has been translated from Arabic to many other languages. (2)(a) The Koran was not only written in classical Arabic but also in a dialect known as Quraish in which it was originally revealed to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel.

From http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/collect.html : "...It is the general opinion and testimony of Muslims that (unlike the Bible as they assert) the Quran is clear and uniform. There are no differing versions and documents. There is but one Quran and all Muslims everywhere use the identical text, given word for word by Gabriel to Mohammed who, in turn, recited it to his scribes and companions for recording or memorization. These pieces were collected under the Khalifships of Abu Bakr and Umar by Zaid-ibn-Thabith. When a little later contentions arose between believers because of differing recitations (in prayer), Uthman ordered the text to be edited according to the dialect of the Quraish, and this text is the one before us today.

As we shall see, this is not correct - or it is, to say the least, a very romantic concept.

We must say here, however, that by "different versions" of the Bible is generally meant various translations, which do indeed have differences in phrasing as any one translation of a certain text has when compared to another translation of the same text - translations of the Quran not excepted.
Muslims interpret the honesty Christians display about some variant readings of the Bible MSS as weakness and claim that the Quran never had more than one version. Any differences, they say, concerned variant dialects only and never affected the meaning of the text. This is definitely incorrect as the following paragraphs will prove.


Omitted passages. - After the sudden death of Mohammed, Zaid-ibn-Thabith was ordered to compile and write down the Quran (Mishkat'ul Masabih). It is attested that at least three revelations were left out. One of these, according to Mohammed's wife, Aysha, with whom he resided at this death, was kept under their bed at the time of Mohammed's death, but was eaten by a domestic animal (related by ibn-Mayah in "Kitabu'l Sunan" with Sahih Muslim, page 740.)

According to the biographer and Hadis compiler Muslim (page 501):
"Abu Musa al Ashari said to 300 reciters of the Quran in Basra: 'We used to recite a Sura resembling in length and severity (Sura) Bara-at (Sura 9). I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this, which I remember out of it: 'If there were two valleys of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.' And we used to recite a Sura which resembled one of the Suras of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember out of it: 'O people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise' and 'that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection.' "

The latter quotations may be from Suras 61:2 and 17:13, but the first, the same length as Sura 9(129 verses) is missing in the Quran! In this case the possible explanation, namely that of abrogation, is unacceptable, for it would render God very human indeed. We conclude that the statement about the completeness of the Quran cannot be maintained - and with that the argument of "nazil" i.e. that it came from heaven and complete as it is..."

(2)(b) From the same link above: "...Muslims today generally insist that their Koran is precisely the wording of the original, and they therefore criticize the many "Versions" of the Christian Bible (even though all those Versions are actually translations of the exact same original Greek and Aramaic source Manuscripts). But such a claim is incorrect. There were at least 14 variant Arabic versions of the Koran in common use around 900 AD, and possibly several more. These arose due to the method of writing and copying that existed at that time. (Short) Vowels were not recorded, only the consonants. The short vowels could sometimes be represented by a comma-like or slanting-dash mark either above or below a letter. Also, differences between 'b' and 't' and 'th', which are identical except for dots (points) that distinguish them, were unclear because the dots were not recorded in the consonantal text of the time. Other letter/sound pairs also have exactly identical symbols. Therefore, a reader or a copyist could sometimes read different actual words from the same set of symbols. No question regarding the ORIGINAL wording was involved, but rather the many variations arose due to writing and copying the texts..."


From http://www.iheu.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=424 :

"...Apologists for Islam often claim that many so-called violations of human rights are based on a misreading of the Koran and will quote this or that sura in its defence. (Wow, they sure read your beads, kiddo.) But the arguments against Islam are not primarily against its holy text, although there is much to criticize, but against the practices of Islam. We are told that Islam is a religion of peace and that the struggle, jihad, for world conquest is not to be taken literally. Perhaps someone should tell the suicide bombers. But like the Christian Bible, the Koran has arguments to support every point of view. The only possible response to the charge of misunderstanding or misreading is to look at the reality of what is happening in those countries such as Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and northern Nigeria that have fallen under the sway of the Sharia..."


From http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria15_1.html : "...Sharia (shuh REE uh), an Arabic word meaning "the right path," refers to traditional Islamic law. The Sharia comes from the Koran, the sacred book of Islam, which Muslims consider the actual word of God. The Sharia also stems from the Prophet Muhammad’’s teachings and interpretations of those teachings by certain Muslim legal scholars. Muslims believe that Allah (God) revealed his true will to Muhammad, who then passed on Allah’’s commands to humans in the Koran...

...The classic Sharia identified the most serious crimes as those mentioned in the Koran. These were considered sins against Allah and carried mandatory punishments. Some of these crimes and punishments were:

· adultery: death by stoning.
· highway robbery: execution; crucifixion; exile; imprisonment; or right hand and left foot cut off.
· theft: right hand cut off (second offense: left foot cut off; imprisonment for further offenses).
· slander: 80 lashes.
· drinking wine or any other intoxicant: 80 lashes...


C) Sanction of homosexuality - The Koran doesn't foresee a sanction against male and female homosexuality even though it condemns it firmly. Narrations of Muhammad qualify it adultery. The Muslim jurists vary on its qualification:

...jurists recommend burning the guilty by fire, to destroy the wall of a house on him, or to throw him from the highest place followed by stones. Abu-Hanifah recommends jailing him until his death or his repentance, and if he is accustomed to such act, the governor may kill him. Mentioning Muhammad: "If you find someone doing as the people of Lot, kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to", a modern author recommends stoning since Sodom has been destroyed by stones coming from the sky (15:74).

So Khalid Ibn-al-Walid asked the opinion of the Caliph Ali about a man who is penetrated. Ali answered that this offence was practiced by the people of Lot, and God told us what he did with them. I recommend burning him. And it is what Khalid did. This sanction has been applied by the caliphs Abu-Bakr, Ali, Abd-AllahIbn-al-Zubayr and Hisham Ibn Abd-al-Malik.

From http://nowscape.com/islam/islam_printer_friendly.htm : "...Kill non-believers 4.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper..."

\
Where there’s a will, there’s a loophole - even for Sunni Muslims as can be seen below.

From http://www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Sami/articles/eng-articles/glasgow.htm :

"...But Sunnite religious authorities allow their co-religionists who are in the West for studies or a mission, to marry monotheist non-Muslim women with the explicit intention of separating them once they finish their stay abroad. Such a marriage permits these students the loophole of engaging in sexual intercourse without technically breaking Islamic law, which of course forbids sexual intercourse outside of marriage..."

 

To cabdirazzaq,
May be I am interfering and shattering your sincere responses here, but I see that you are naive and that is I say with the sincerest of thoughts in my heart, you are naive because you try to explain fools what your religion is about. Hang on to the existing faith in you and discuss your religion with the people who actually respect it then the fools will leave you alone.

 

Let us put aside the difference of a tafsir and a translation. If you would take a english translation of the meaning of the quran and ask any knowledgeble scholar following correct islamic creed, if it is(the english one) the quran he would respond that it's not. It only explains the meaning of tha quran in the english language, the Quran can't it self be translated.
(interpretation of the meaning):

An Arabic Qur'an, without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may have Taqwa of Him[Quran 39.28]

And thus We have sent it down as a Qur'an in Arabic, and have explained therein in detail the warnings, in order that they may have Taqwa, or that it may cause them to have a lesson from it.[Quran 20.113]

The companions of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)
used to memorize it by heart, there was a time when the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) even ordered them not to write down his own words so that they would not get mixed with the words of Allah(may he be exalted).

Here follows a brief history of the history of the quran.(from islamqa.com)

The Qur’aan continued to be preserved in the hearts of the Sahaabah who had memorized it, and on the skins and other materials until the time of the caliph Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him). During the Riddah wars many of the Sahaabah who had memorized the Qur’aan were killed, and Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) was afraid that the Qur’aan would be lost. So he consulted the senior Sahaabah about compiling the Qur’aan in a single book so that it would remain preserved and would not be lost. He entrusted this mission to the chief of memorizers Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him). Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4986) that Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:

Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq sent for me when the people of al-Yamaamah had been killed [i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against the false prophet Musaylimah]. (I went to him) and found ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), “ ‘Umar has come to me and said: ‘Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Qur'aan (i.e. those who knew the Qur’aan by heart) on the day of the battle of al-Yamaamah, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur’aan may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur’aan be collected.” I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, this is something good." 'Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allaah opened my heart to it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). “You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur’aan and compile it in one book." By Allah If they had ordered me to move one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to compile the Qur’aan. Then I said (to Abu Bakr), "How can you do something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allaah, it is a good thing." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allaah opened my heart to that to which He had opened the hearts of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur’aan and collecting it from (what it was written on) palm stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, until I found the last Verse of Soorat al-Tawbah with Abu Khuzaymah al-Ansaari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The verse is (interpretation of the meaning):

"Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty...” [al-Tawbah 9:128] until the end of Soorat Baraa’ah (i.e., al-Tawbah).

Then the complete manuscript (copy) of the Qur’aan remained with Abu Bakr until he died, then with 'Umar until the end of his life, and then with Hafsah, the daughter of 'Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him).

The Sahaabi Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) knew the Qur’aan by heart but he was methodical in his confirmation; he would not agree to write down any verse until two of the Sahaabah testified that they had heard it from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

This Mus-haf (written copy of the Qur’aan) remained in the hands of the caliphs until the time of the Rightly-Guided Caliph ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan (may Allaah be pleased with him). The Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) had dispersed to different lands, and they used to recite the Qur’aan according to what they had heard of the seven recitations from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and each of their students used to recite according to what he had heard from his shaykh. If a student heard someone reciting in a manner different from what he knew, he would denounce him and accuse him of making a mistake, and this went on until the Sahaabah feared that there would be fitnah (trouble) between the Taabi’een and successive generations. So they thought that they should unite the people in following one recitation, which was in the dialect of Quraysh in which the Qur’aan had first been revealed, so as to dispel any disputes and resolve the matter. ‘Uthmaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) was consulted, and he agreed with this opinion.

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (4988) from Anas ibn Maalik that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan came to ‘Uthmaan at the time when the people of Shaam (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azerbaijan. Hudhayfah was alarmed by their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’aan, so he said to 'Uthmaan, "O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! Save this nation before they dispute about the Book (Qur’aan) as the Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthmaan sent a message to Hafsah saying, "Send us the manuscript of the Qur’aan so that we may make copies of the Mus-haf and we will return the manuscript to you."
Hafsah sent it to 'Uthmaan. Then 'Uthmaan ordered Zayd ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa’eed ibn al-‘Aas and ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Haarith ibn Hishaam to copy out the manuscripts. 'Uthmaan said to the three men who were from Quraysh (the tribe of which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a member), “In case you disagree with Zayd ibn Thaabit on any point in the Qur’aan, then write it in the dialect of Quraysh, for the Qur’aan was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthmaan returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah.

'Uthmaan sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'aanic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Ibn Shihaab said: Khaarijah ibn Zayd ibn Thaabit told me that he heard Zayd ibn Thaabit say: “When we made copies of the Mus-haf I missed a verse of al-Ahzaab that I used to hear the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recite. So we searched for it and we found it with Khuzaymah ibn Thaabit al-Ansaari. (The verse was)

‘Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allaah’ [al-Ahzaab 33:23 – interpretation of the meaning].

So we put it in its place in its soorah in the Mus-haf.”
Thus an end was put to dispute and the Muslims were united. The Qur’aan has remained and will remain narrated from generation to generation and preserved in men's hearts until the Day of Resurrection. This is how Allaah has preserved His Book, in confirmation of the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”
[al-Hijr 15:9]

 

I appreciate the advice and you do make a point but I cannot stand as an idle spectator when my whole way of life is critisized without adequate information, let him atleast get the facts right.

 

I haven't read and will not read beyond the first five or six posts in this thread. I am here only to say that Islam is a disgusting religion to me specifically because in its true practice, it DOES proclaim that all others who are not Muslim are essentially worth shit and must be either converted or murdered.

Fuck them.

Anyone who believes that they have, by virtue of their religion, the right to kill anyone who doesn't worship as they do is a piece of shit and should rot forever.
Why? Because ALL religions claim to be right, and assert that their god is truly the god of the universe, but obviously they can't all be right. So how can they claim that there's no chance that maybe the "infidels" should not be murdered in the name of Allah?

Also, the weaker your position is, generally the more you refuse to tolerate questioning or dissent. How well does it speak of Islam that the moment you say one word bad about it, they say that you must be killed?

Again, I say, Islam can eat shit and die.

The world has the right to live free of the THREAT that such ignorant extremism presents.

-Jeffrey

 

I believe you've got the his-story not the real history. There is a wide difference, one is made up by myths the other from sources. This is a stereotype which I do not blame you directly for, I should blame my self for not having conveyed this clearly, this matter is explained in the quran clearly:
(interpretation of the meaning)

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower [Quran 2.256]

Do not judge any religion after its followers but by its teachings.

 

The same as with Christian fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalists resort to repeating their respective sacred scriptural verses like autistic parrots believing the more the repeat them the more Divine intervention will enable conversions until the whole planet is converted to the "one true faith."

Yes, and this post is now kosmick sakred skripture which cannot be translated from English into any heathen tongue much less one written without vowels and I am the 28 2/17th incarnation of Isis, he who tosses five pellets of frankincense before my statue will attain immortality.


Yes, and this post is now kosmick sakred skripture which cannot be translated from English into any heathen tongue much less one written without vowels and I am the 28 2/17th incarnation of Isis, he who tosses five pellets of frankincense before my statue will attain immortality.

Yes, and this post is now kosmick sakred skripture which cannot be translated from English into any heathen tongue much less one written without vowels and I am the 28 2/17th incarnation of Isis, he who tosses five pellets of frankincense before my statue will attain immortality.

Yes, and this post is now kosmick sakred skripture which cannot be translated from English into any heathen tongue much less one written without vowels and I am the 28 2/17th incarnation of Isis, he who tosses five pellets of frankincense before my statue will attain immortality.

Yes, and this post is now kosmick sakred skripture which cannot be translated from English into any heathen tongue much less one written without vowels and I am the 28 2/17th incarnation of Isis, he who tosses five pellets of frankincense before my statue will attain immortality.

Yes, and this post is now kosmick sakred skripture which cannot be translated from English into any heathen tongue much less one written without vowels and I am the 28 2/17th incarnation of Isis, he who tosses five pellets of frankincense before my statue will attain immortality...per ad secvla secvulorvm.

As stated throughout the posts of Lagidae (blessed am I, Isis, forever), anyone can read the Koran online and read for themselves all the violence ordered upon non-believers of Islam.

Divine Revelation: And, so it is my little children, that I have caused great tribulation in the East for their straying and have caused the earth to shake and the ocean to rise against the Sand People till they foresake their heresy.

Not seeing any point for further discussion with beings of insufficient spiritual evolution, I will now set sail upon my golden solar barque across the heavens and return amongst the indefatigable stars and the Gods from whom amongst I came and reign forever.

(Gawd, what a trip.)

Mission accomplished.

Genestho.

P.S. To the pagan in the peanut gallery. Let's not forget all the pagan human sacrifices throughout history. Archeological evidence has produced preseved corpses in Europe and skeletal remains in Central America of the 10's of 1,000's of pagan sacrificial victims as well as countless other pagan cultures throughout the planet.

 

What an odd discussion.....

I just want to say that my family is shia but Khomeini is not popular!!!

 

I've read the first and last pages only, and may have the gist of it, so I'll add my 2c's worth.
I reckon the problem is religion no matter what the name. The problem seems to always commence when groups form and self advocate. If people truly believed in their "God", I don't believe they'd need safety in numbers, but rather would trust in confidence that their god would hear their prayers and deliver them salvation no matter what, where, or how they went about worshipping.
Keep beliefs in the heart, I say. Those who don't want to know or find out simply won't, and that's their responsibility, not anyone else's.
It seems to me that the personal relationship with "God" gets lost in the mass rhetoric that goes with religious groups.
Peace on earth, goodwill to all

 

A problem solver will always be needed where people dont stick up for the truth themselves. The scriptures written with good intent, have been mistranslated over their years. So to the degree at which humans beleive that evil resides with in the center of the earth instead of realizing that it stand in our selfish desires.

 

Could you explain what you mean more precisly?