the Pope has crossed over

What my family went through and millions of others, to us it is communism. Maybe not your stateless communism, maybe not the communism of Marx, but it was totalitarian communism. But it is fair enough to say that communists were the guilty ones who oppressed Eastern Europe and Central Asia. You might be interested to know I am taking Imperial Russian History right now at my college, (University of Virginia). Mainly becasue we had to learn all of this crap growin up, not even in Russia, but you know how state run cirriculums in a totalitarian nation can be! I took it for an easy A, plus it is interesting to get another viewpoint on all of it.

The Church does not rape cultures. In fact many cultures blend their own beleifs with it, and they can mesh them quite nicely. Why do you think there are over 500 million Catholics in Africa now? Most Catholics in the world now are black.

I don't know of Catholics persecuting people with beliefs like you, maybe the bastards that oppressed us, but I thought you were different than them?

Of course, JP 2.0 did help bring down communism in the USSR, did that piss you off though?

Sorry Mui, our church is not going to collapse, nor should it. What is, "too much power?" Power over what? Who? Catholics? Well yeah, no one is forced to be Catholic, people can not be it if they don't want to be, but the fact is we are the World's single largest religion, so obviously a lot of people do.

 

The church destroys cultures by pushing missionaries all over the world... its a sad thing that they are actually having success in africa asia and south america.. some of those countries once had the richest cultural background and spiritual beliefs, and now they are gone because of catholic missionarys.

Maybe you should be taking a history lesson in religious oppression in europe than. You weren't oppressed by communism, you were oppressed by a man named Joseph Stalin... who wasnt even in the communist part of the USSR but later took power and raped the world under the name of communism... he even later went on killing those who spouted the original marxist doctrine... you can say you were oppressed by communism all you want but that doesnt make it true. ive said many times before i think communism needs a new term because of how its been defined over theyears

Communism never was in the USSR.
If it were than Lenin or Trotsky would have retained power, but that never happened. But no didnt really piss me off... neither did his stance in bringing down the "iron curtain"... what pisses me off more than the popes position on those things are true conspiracy theories that took place in germany depicting a 'communist' going around and killing innocent people when really this man was sent by the government to scare people away from communism -- and boy did it work.

The church has power over most of the world, they can influence peoples opinions and views by changing their own, they can send missionaries to anywhere they want in the world, they can start up holy wars again...

The catholic church has more money than America and a few other nations COMBINED... no organization needs this much power, especially a christian church that preaches religious dependency, conformity and ignorance.

 

LickHERish, come on man, did you at least read my post carefully? What I said about Hitler is I wouldn't interfere in his family grieve at the funeral, not that I wouldn't criticise the bastard! And I said this because even a criminal can have people who cared about him and who knew his good sides (remember, nobody is pure evil) and I would leave them alone out of respect for their feelings, not from some misplaced respect for the dead murderer.

And I cann't understand why you blame the dead pope for media's overreactions. He has nothing to do with it. It's like starting to talk bad things about Ernesto Che Guevara because his image is become a merchandise. And anyway, my protest here was not against the people who express their feelings toward media exageration, but against those who says undiserved bad things about John Paul II and denie what the guy did good.

Just one thing, Mui, why are you so blind about the protestants? They are pretty much doing the same things as catholics, but you don't seem to notice this. Also, you are free to persue your atheism and your communist ideal (which is a silly dream, but hey, this is not my problem) but why are you so agressive toward other people's opinions. They are just as free as you are, don't you think?

Sun Angel, you have my compassion in this dark hour for your country, and no matter some people are saying here, he is a great loss for the world and for our part of the world especially.

 

Oh, Mui, and by the way, do you have any idea who are the most agressive and the richest missionaries in Romania? Your fellow American protestants and mormons!

About communism, do you know how many people killed Lenin and Trotsky? 50 millions. Lenin was a bloody dictator who restaured the Russian Empire in a new form, just like Hitler, who restored the Geman empire. Trotsky is the creator of the Red Army, the main tool of this bloody reconquest. Djerzinsky, another Lenin's hentchman, is the founder of CEKA, who became the NKVD under Stalin and later KGB. The fact Stalin was worse, doesn't make Lenin&comp. good!

Jozak, as I noticed on globalisation forum, many people who didn't lived the communism as we do are just unable to understand how twisted and sick it was. As Christ said: "Forgive them, Father, because they don't know what are they doing!"

 

The Catholic faith is rooted in delusional belief and psychotic non-sense.

If one solitary lunitic spouted what those bastards claim to believe that one solitary lunitic would be planting potatoes at "Turtle Glen" quicker than a wink!

It is beyond comprehension of "normal" people that so many would follow so blindly something with absolutely so basis in reality or simple logic.

What are they saying now? If the Pope's body doesen't begin to decompose it's a message from God!

Give the old Coot a whiff and find out what the Lord is saying!

 

im upset i always wanted to meet him and thought i would i know someone who met him a few years ago and said he had the most bright, caming yet humbeling presence ever. i also feel really bad for not going to mass im stopping by to light a candle tommorow so i wont go to hell

 

Im not blind about protestants, I know that they are doing the same htings... but we arent talking about protestants, we are talking about catholicism now (the pope).

If im so free to be a communist in america, why does the government have to take pictures of me and put me on file? Mccarthyism wasnt that long ago, and its not dead today. Im sick of you hypocrites that think i am for taking other peoples privacy, and bitch about the patriot act when the patriot act is being used on kids with radicalistic ideas. I was one of the first. Being threatened by big time government officials really makes me feel "free" to have my ideas.

cool. what does this have to do with anything

You do not have any sources for those numbers, and I can assure everyone here that you pulled them out of your ass.. I have seen a lot of numbers, and most dont go over 1 million, NONE go over 11 million... stop with your stupid biased statistics with no proof or merit... and you are wrong again, lenin was never dictator... you need a serious history update.

Maybe if you knew anything about what lenin was t rying to do (which you dont, because you called him a dictator when he was trying to bring power to the people instead of the hands of select people) you'd understand...
Seriously people, learn something about communism before you say anything about it.

If you go to google and t ype communism the first 20 pages you get will be nothing but biased american garbage. to know anything about communism you need to pick up the communist manifesto, Das kapital and a great history book on the russian revolution.

You say, "And about communism" than you go off to spout some false death toll... communism is an economic philosophy and your extremely wrong death tolls arent relevant to communism as an economic philosophy but only to the provisional government and stalin's political philosophy... that same political philosophy that lenin fought against.

 

He hasn't crossed over, just been reborn!

/Popeman

 

Oh, extremely wrong?! Damn you lucky Westerners who spit on your luck, why doesn't the UNiverse allow us to change places, to see you living in your precious utopia, which was the worst nighmare ever! Only in my country 300000 people dyed because of it and in their memory I course you!

 

For some reason much of my reply is in the qoutation area, so, please, read it.

Curious Mutation, don't you have any respect for other people believes? Then you don't deserve any respect.

 

Seems to me that anyone who believes the sort of trash sold by the catholics are either weak or insane.

I remember the nuns in gradeschool cramming all that horseshit into the brains of young children. I am truly proud of the fact that never did I buy into it.

I have a fond memory of being slated to serve as an alterboy when I was 11 (something I hated with a passion to do) and showing at the designated time and place and waiting with another kid for the priest to unlock the church door.

The old fruit was a no-show! After awhile we climbed the wooden fence around back and saw the old son of a bitch through sliding glass doors laying flat on his face stone cold dead on his living room floor!

We were actually happy that we would'nt have to serve mass after all!

Hey, shit happens!

Fuck the Catholic church.

They're in it for the money!

 

C.M. - You like to shock people, don't you?

 

People you can disapprouve the catholic church as much as you wish, but hate it? OK, it's your freedom, but you're far from being the center of the Universe, so some decency should be required. Also, as Christ said, look first on yourselves before blaming others. And what can I see here:

1) people who confuse religion with some bad things some clerics did to them or to others.
2) protestant fundamentalists who express just their frustration and refuse to see their own churches sins.
3) people who confuses shit happened in history with today realities; at least the Pope expressed regrets for the bad things did by the catholic church in the past; did any protestant church do that?
4) people who change their religion only on things like gay acceptance, divorce or contracetion; please, this isn't faith, it's fashion; you don't agree, pressure to change things, don't run away like a chicken.
5) aggressive atheists who would like to inforce their beliefs to the others, exactly like stalinists; very nice, do you want to found an atheistic Inquisition?
6) nostalgics of communism; what can I say, shake hands with your brothers in suffering, the neonazis!

 

How many of you rabid religious zealots understand that a question is not a statement of Fact?

I see there's at least one nameless gutless wonder that doesn't...*L*

 

Zealot against zealot, huh? It's not my case, but look at Mui and a few others. And of course, you havee all the right to ask.

 

???
The correlation escapes me...

 

Sandu, what caused suffering and pain in that country was not communism... it was led under the name of communism, but if you read the communist manifesto you can easily tell that those people were not communists...
In fact it's quite the opposite... lenin viewed them all as capitalists and he fought to get rid of them...
Lives were not lost because of communism... communism is an economic philosophy, it is not responsible for death tolls... only the leaders are responsible for those things... an idiot could see that. Communism hasnt killed a single person.

so you can go along thinking all communists want to take yer privacy and freedom and throw it down the drain in an all-powerful government controlled society led by dictators, but to the real commies out there, we'll always know that it is all bullshit.

Everyones opinions are a dream, which is seemingly impossible... whether you are capitalist or socialist, libertarian or whatever... its all just one big dream thats never existed before... theres nothing wrong with dreaming for a better world, it's what we all do... we just have different opinions of how to make the world better... and I for one think that the ideas in the communist manifesto, das kapital and in Lenin's April Theses would truly make the world a better place... but its so hard to get people to see what communism really means because they are so belligerant and refuse to actually study communist philosophy.

 

Mui, I know all about the communist ideals and the way things turned in real life. And Lenin was talking about the "red bourgeoisie", but it was too late to do anything. What you and other idealistic commies don't realise is that if someone would try again to implement marxism in reality, it would generate again dictatorship and "red bourgeoisie". You do the same mistake as some neofascists do saying "the idea was good but it was wrongly implemented". Any system which denies important bits of freedom, including economical freedom of individual, is doomed to end in tyrany.

And about Lenin, look at the history of the Russian revolution and the early years of Soviet regim and you'll see he was a dictator. A well intended one maybe, but hell is paved with good intentions and he caused many unnecessary death and suffering.

Well, maybe I was a little rough on you, but you were rough first in imposing your opinion to others. And, as you seem to understand, with some reason.

 

Well I see the old pervert Cardinal Law is once again within the good grace of the most corrupt religion on the face of the earth!

 

LOL! Communism doesnt deny freedom... "I know all about communist ideals" My ass! Communism HAS been implemented without dictatorships many many times... there are working communes all over the world, and none of them have caused a bit of suffering... and if you think a commune is any different than communism you are completely insane. Its just typical capitalist propagandist bullshit to say that it will always be ran under a dictatorship. the USSR turned capitalist after the provisional government collapsed.

LOL! You are talking to a man who has read over and over the history of the russian revolution... You are talking to a man who has studied sense 8th grade what "Communist Ideals" really are. You're talking to a man who sat through the first chapter of das kapital which is slow and boring and only defines what a commodity is. Dont you be tellin me to edumacate myself about the revolution, because that is my passion. YOU look at the history of the russian revolution and the early years of the provisional government and you'll see he was NEVER a dictator. The only dictator of the USSR was Stalin.

I wasnt imposing ANYTHING on others... Do you even know what imposing your beliefs on someone means? You cant impose your beliefs on the internet... stop acting like you know so much about communism when you so obviously dont.. And you arent rough on me at all, i've been laughing at you the whole time.

Take some time to TRULY educate yourself about communism...
In fact sandu you sound a lot like Stalin... read this and you w ill find out why...


Here is a quote from lenin in 1917 in the book State & revolution (surely a book you've never picked up)
“During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred, and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonise them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the ‘consolation’ of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarising it”

Anti-Lenin campaigns are used to scare workers and youth away from revolutionary ideas and struggle. For socialists today, it is therefore necessary to answer the lies and slanders directed against Lenin and the Russian revolution.

The image of an unbroken line from Lenin to Joseph Stalin, and on to Leonid Brezhnev and Mikhail Gorbachov, is maybe the biggest falsification in history. Publications like The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression – by Stephane Courtois, Nicolas Werth, Jean-Louis Panne, Andrzej Paczkowski, Karel Bartosek, Jean-Louis Margolin (Harvard University Press, 1999) – say nothing about the policies of the Bolsheviks led by Lenin or the decisions made immediately after the October revolution in 1917. They hide the enormous struggles of the 1920s, started by Lenin himself, to stop the rise of Stalinism. They cannot explain the one-sided civil war Stalin conducted in the 1930s against anyone connected to Lenin.

One distinguished historian who did differenciate between Lenin and Stalin was EH Carr, who described how Lenin’s regime encouraged the working class to take an active part in the business of the party and the nation. That position on democracy and workers rights’ was completely opposite to the dictatorship established by Stalin. It was the workers’ councils, the soviets, which took power in October 1917, and it was their elected and recallable delegates who appointed the government. Workers’ rights, including the right to strike, were enshrined. The setting up of factory committees and collective bargaining were encouraged. The Bolsheviks were not in favour of banning any party, not even the bourgeois parties, as long as they did not take up armed struggle. In the beginning, the only organisation banned was the Black Hundreds, which was made up of mobs organised as a proto-fascist party specialising in physical attacks on radicals and pogroms against Jewish people.
Lenin’s Soviet Union and his political programme were smashed by Stalinism. The coming to power of the Stalinist bureaucracy meant a counter-revolution in every field, apart from the nationalised economy. Rights for workers, women and oppressed nations were all put under the iron heel. Instead of ‘dying away’, which was Lenin’s perspective for the apparatus of the workers’ state, it grew into an opressive military-police machine of gigantic proportions. Stalinism was a nationalistic dictatorship, a parasitic organism living on the body of the planned economy.

Stalinism, however, could not take power without resistance, without a bloody political counter-revolution. Stalin’s purges and witch-hunts in 1936-38 were not blind actions, but the response of the bureaucracy towards growing opposition to its rule. The main accused in the show-trials was Lenin’s ally from 1917, Leon Trotsky, and his followers, who were imprisoned and executed by the thousands. Trotsky – who defendend and developed the programme of Lenin and the Bolsheviks – was expelled from the Soviet Union in 1929 and murdered by Stalin’s hired assassin in Mexico in 1940.

Stalinism in words kept a connection to the revolution, Marx and Lenin, and turned them into religious icons because this helped strengthen these regimes. The bureaucracy wanted to take the credit for the revolution, which in itself is proof of its attractive power. The end result, however, was to discredit the very concepts of Marxism and ‘Leninism’ in the minds of workers and oppressed people globally. ‘Leninism’ became the slogan of a parasitic dictatorship.

This Stalinist falsification of Lenin’s ideas and of Marxism was accepted without question by the social democrats and the ruling classes internationally. They all had an interest in hiding Lenin’s real ideas. Trotsky and his supporters defended the political heritage of Lenin, and were opposed to the cult of personality which Stalin constructed. In contrast to superficial criticism from politicians in the West, Trotsky had a scientific and class-based programme against Stalinism. Trotsky, for example, warned against Stalin’s military-led, forced collectivisation of agriculture in 1929-33 (while some anti-Lenin propagandists claim that it was Lenin who forced through collectivisation).

In the book, Revolution Betrayed, written in 1936 (another book you've never read) Trotsky explained in detail how Stalin’s policies were the opposite to Lenin’s: on culture, the family, agriculture, industry, democratic and national rights, etc. On all international issues, Stalinism broke with the programme and methods of Lenin, above all the need for the independence of the working class: in the Chinese revolution of 1925-27, the struggle against fascism in Germany, the Spanish revolution in the 1930s, and in all other decisive struggles. Today’s anti-Lenin commentators, by stressing that revolutionary struggle is ‘unrealistic’, thereby end up in Stalin’s camp against Lenin and Trotsky.


While you guys were reading the bible & ayn rand cultist bullshit, i was reading the communist manifesto, das kapital, state & revolution, and hundreds of letters and speeches wrote by Lenin, Stalin, Marx, Engels and Trotsky. You cannot feed me the same bullshit that has been fed to you.

Go read the black book of communism and have that be your only source for info... go cheer on your economic philosophy as it rapes, tortures, enslaves and murders its workers in third world countries that produce goods for nothing so fat white americans can get their shit for cheap.

American capitalism is the most morally wrong thing anyone can support... if you only knew how many people were working under multinational corporations and if you only knew how many of them report abuse and even rape. These corporations make what america was built on complete shit... The foundations of america cringe at their knees... there is no workers rights, no child labor laws, no minimum wage... they can pay them in small amounts of food if they want, and rape them in their sweatshops and get away with it.
America cannot claim to stand on a higher moral ground for having these rights if they do not enforce them. Libertarianism would take away these rights from americans... it would allow corporations to pay us little to nothing, and allow childlabor... a corporation with nothing to look after it is an empire in itself.