The Origins of the Christian Heaven and Hell

This thread reminds me of some star wars or star trek fan boys arguing.

If its a lie then does it matter?

 

You might want to just read the Bible up to the point were Satan shows up and ask yourself what is God's purpose for mankind and the Earth. Then ask yourself can anything, even Satan, change God's purpose for the Earth and mankind?

I know you are just saying what you have been taught but think about it, is God righteous? Can any unrighteousness be found in him? And yet at one time only he existed, so at least at one time, only righteousness existed.

Okay, if you want to look at it that way but I was not talking about condemnation, I was talking about the nature of forgiveness and someone does not need to be condemned to be forgiven.

 

Yet that is all I was saying, the statement was made that God couldn't exist without Satan and I was just pointing out that the Bible says the God has already existed without Satan.

 

oh boy...

If it were a lie then it wouldn't matter imo, but if it was the truth then wouldn't it matter significantly?

 

When we see Satan in the garden, was he an angel or was he what we know him as today? I think the time of the punishment of this angel may offer an answer to that question.

If Satan was not Satan until after the fact of tempting Adam and & Eve then perhaps we can say that he came into existence after A&E

Although you may not have meant that, i'm just being a Bible nerd

Speaking of which, I noticed that Star Trek is on the TV in your signature picture and that's probably Data. Nice

 

Nice catch, I didn't even notice.

 

The jewish concept is that God put us on this earth to bring about the messianic age. The Christian concept is that God tried to trust all man with creating a tov world here on earth and then when mankind failed i.e. the great flood he moved on to just the jews who were to bring this idea of a messianic age to others through the acts of their covenant with God, and when that failed God sent Jesus to help sinful man find this messianic age. There you go. From the point of view of the Jews you are quite right God doesn't need Satan to be what he is, because Satan virtually doesn't even exist. But even you must acknowledge that the Christian faith puts much significance on this figure of Satan. He is the first evil in creation, he is the being that brought sin into the world, and he is the ultimate enemy of God in that everything that God does Satan tries either to undo or corrupt.

Before you presume to know me and my life history I'd appreciate it if you ask first. I was born a Jew adopted at 5 and raised a Christian, then at 15 I decided that I disagreed with Christianity and set out to disprove not just it but all religions, I guess you could call it a crisis of faith. In order to do this I spent 5 more years of my life studying any religion I could get my hands on, and in the end I finally realised after having studied Taoist philosophy that all religions are just manifestations of the Great Integrity that has always been and always will be. So no I am not just expousing what I have been taught sir. I am stating my own well forged time tempered opinion. And in response to the part about God being righteous I suggest you reread the old testament and all the things God was said to have done and then come say he is righteous, but please state each case of what he did and why he did it and how that makes him righteous or not. To give you an example let me state this moment in the Old Testament.

2 Samuel 6:6-7 "And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God." At some point in the bible God states his rules for the handling of the ark, and he states that you cannot touch it yourself, you cannot allow it to touch the ground and you cannot let animals carry it for you. Obviously Uzzah was wrong to let an ox carry the ark but he was still trying to show respect for God's ark by keeping it from touching the floor. Bit strange over reaction on Gods part no?

Exodus 5:1-5 "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell. And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel." A just act? A righteous one? He commands the Jews to throw out all sick people from their camp? Perhaps a neccesary act depending on the sickness but a righteous one?

This phrase makes no sense OWB if there's no condemnation then why need forgiveness? If a man need not fear being condemned to hell what is the damn point of Jesus and his death?

 

Forgiveness is antithetical to judgment. Forgiveness is a practice used in place of judgment,
not seven times but seventy times seven.

 

Forgive (For*give") (?), v. t.
[imp. Forgave (?); p. p. Forgiven (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Forgiving]
[OE. forgiven, foryiven, foryeven, AS. forgiefan, forgifan; perh. for- + giefan, gifan to give; cf. D. vergeven, G. vergeben, Icel. fyrirgefa, Sw. f¿rgifva, Goth. fragiban to give, grant. See For-, and Give, v. t.]

1. To give wholly; to make over without reservation; to resign. "To them that list the world's gay shows I leave, And to great ones such folly do forgive." Spenser.
2. To give up resentment or claim to requital on account of (an offense or wrong); to remit the penalty of; to pardon; -- said in reference to the act forgiven. "And their sins should be forgiven them." Mark iv. 12. "He forgive injures so readily that he might be said to invite them." Macaulay.
3. To cease to feel resentment against, on account of wrong committed; to give up claim to requital from or retribution upon (an offender); to absolve; to pardon; -- said of the person offending. "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke xxiii. 34. "I as free forgive you, as I would be fforgiven." Shak.
^ Sometimes both the person and the offense follow as objects of the verb, sometimes one and sometimes the other being the indirect object. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Matt. vi. 12. "Be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." Matt. ix. 2.
Yeah I know I just quoted a dictionary word for word but there you go

 

Something that is not present is the definition of the entomological structure which is the prefix for, as in before, and giving. We are forgiven our debts as we forgive because our debts are self imposed, we claim them. So to forgive is to stop claiming guilt. When we stop claiming guilt then we notice we have no liabilities.

 

As much as I like this saying I'll have to point out that this entire phrase here is contradictory to Christian teaching. Not to almost any other teaching from what I've read but definintly to christian. If as stated by Jesus and Paul all men are inherently sinful and must accept Jesus and his atoning blood to be forgiven for their sins. that would imply that all men are condemned by God as sinners and as such without the forgiveness of Christ for their iniquities they must always be conciouss of their debts and our guilt. Doesn't sound self imposed to me

(Romans 3:23) 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

(Luke 13:3) 3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.

(I John 3:6) 6 Whoever remains in him doesn’t sin. Whoever sins hasn’t seen him, neither knows him.

(I John 2:2) 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

(Hebrews 12:14) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord,

(Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(I John 2:4) 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.

(Hebrews 8:12) 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more.”

(Luke 13:27) 27 He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.’

(John 15:22) 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

(John 8:11) 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” Jesus said, "“Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”"

(Matthew 1:21) 21 She shall bring forth a son. You shall call his name Jesus, for it is he who shall save his people from their sins.”

(II Corinthians 5:21) 21 For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

(John 3:36) 36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

(James 5:20) 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

(Romans 7:5) 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were through the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit to death.

(Romans 8:7-8) 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.

(Acts 2:38) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

(Revelation of John 21:8) 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

Please, just for a moment forget what you've been taught and what you've looked up and just read the first two chapters of the Bible. Then tell me what you have read.

Answer these questions:
For what reason did God put man on the Earth for? What would happen if no one ate of the tree? Is there any talk about a "messianic age"? Is Satan even a part of the picture? When did God create Hell?

I seem to have offended you so I apologize.

I have already read them several times and I say he is righteous in all his ways.

Over reaction? No.

The law had instructed that under no circumstances was the Ark to be touched by unauthorized persons, a warning of public knowledge that carried with it the death penalty for violators.

Yes, it was obviously wrong to have animals carry it. If they had obeyed God instead of thinking their way was better than God's there would have been no oxen to shake it and no need to try and prevent it from touching the ground.

As for respect, If there had been respect for the Ark it would have been hand carried and no need to touch it but Uzzah continued to show disrespect for God and the Ark by reaching out and touching it and that touching carried with it the death penalty.

Haven't you ever heard of quarantining some one? Since when is that considered unrighteous? In fact it was a health law way ahead of it's time and you call it unrighteous?

All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Likewise those who are condemned need forgiveness but not all those that are forgiven were condemned.

The "damn point" is that mankind is under condemnation of death and not eternal torture and Jesus' death would remove the condemnation of death from faithful mankind.

All mankind is to be resurrected but without Jesus' sacrifice, what would be the point? They would just die again. But Jesus' sacrifice will permit those resurrected to live forever on a paradise Earth as God originally purposed for them to do.

What did God tell Adam would happen if he ate of the tree? Death, plain and simple death, you shall surely die and that is what has happened to all mankind, they all have died.

As for eternal torture after death, the Bible never says that Adam and Eve were ever told anything about eternal torture or that they ever knew about it. If they were to suffer eternal torture after their death, shouldn't they have been told, seems like important information for them to know about before they ate the fruit, let alone before they died. Rather than waiting until after they died to say, oh by the way.

 

;D

There is no death sentence on humanity.

Unless we're afraid of finding it! The suspense! Not of judgement, but the moment!

 

If there is no death sentence on humanity, why do we die.

I mean last time I looked scientists, who have looked long and hard, still don't know why we grow old and die and so a death sentence is as good a reason as any.

 

As any? A better reason is that we're still learning how to live. Some would say the best reason for why we die is simply because it is our nature to do so. I understand where they're coming from with this, but not going to, nor do I believe do they. : D

 

Before we learn to cooperate we must understand and learn co-existence. Nevertheless, idealism determined often that a leap of Faith can share the Existence part for the immediate feeling of Cooperation. And. Dying maybe is some kind of living way for some arbitrary cooperation.

 

Our nature to do so? Even though scientists say they can find no reason for us to die? Interesting.

 

You asked me to read the first two chapters but I went ahead and reread the 3rd too. Let me show you something that actually vouches for my theory on the creation story brother

Genesis 3: 21-23: 21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.' 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

As I said in a previous post most likely on the Strengthen your faith in the bible thread God didn't cast out Adam and Eve because they had sinned, he cast them out because he didn't want them to become immortal like him. As to the proof of the messianic age I spoke of it seems rather obvious to me. God gave over the naming of all things and the tending of all things that were made to man and it has been man's duty ever since to work and take care of the things God has put before him. We as people are co-creators with God. Not to say we aren't his creations because we are. But where God didn't put peace and prosperity etc etc into the world it is our duty to bring about the harvest of the seeds he left for us to cultivate into his ideal world. Originally many Jews did believe in a coming messiah but even by the time of Christ it was more widely believed that we were eventually going to experience a messianic age not an actual messiah

 

Willedwill:

I have nothing against death. There is no way I could have. Perhaps this is why I find it frustrating. No matter, I am not to know. To hold my laughter against it is an arbitrariness I am presently not permitted to afford for my existence. One cannot cooperate free of oneself --- a mote in the eye of idealism? What does your bliss in immediacy say?! ;D

 

But Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life which gave them immortality so why would God say to them not to eat from the tree of knowledge that would cause them to die if he wanted them to not have immortality? Why would God try to protect them from death if it was his intention that they pick from the fruit and die?

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Also, why punish the serpent? Shouldn't he be thanking him instead?