The Origins of the Christian Heaven and Hell

I'm a bit confused about that myself. Why say Satan roams the earth and 'crawl' on his belly if it was only after Jesus was given the throne that Satan would be cast down? My interpretation of that was that Jesus as his heavenly self (probably archangel michael) cast down Satan after Adam and Eve sinned and from there generated violence and whatnot and started a war on Gods people. Wasn't the war always going on? "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers"

This may not be the appropriate place to ask but I haven't seen another chance to ask this question elsewhere

 

Well, we've all ready talked about Satan still being in heaven at the time of job, so his casting down would have to be after that. Revelation says that; Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ, which seems would happen after Jesus' death and return to heaven and at that time Jesus would then cast Satan out of heaven for good and Satan at that time would know he has but a short time left and so we would see the signs of Matthew in abundance, such as the two World Wars and the Spanish Flu epidemic. So I would say that the casting down of Satan was near the first World war.

 

Will there be a local Bank for the Palestinians?:hat:

 

You mean the West Bank?

 

Ok, that makes sense. Satan is cast down at the moment when Jesus returns to heaven. Satan was cast down and had something to do with the destruction of the temple and for the destruction and disasters that followed. There is a long gap between the destruction of the temple described in Matthew and slightly before WW1. Was Satan fully cast down after Jesus took the throne or during WW1 and Spanish flu? Was Satan partly responsible for events in history such as the Inquisition?

Or did you mean that Satan doubled his efforts right before WW1 because he knew his time was short?

TY btw.

 

You're correct that the Old Testament had no concept of an afterlife until after the Babylonian captivity. This is quite remarkable in that belief in an afterlife was prevalent in Egypt and other nations in the neighborhood. The idea of an afterlife, heaven and hell came into Judaism during the era of Persian dominance after the Babylonian captivity, and especially after the Maccabees' revolt against Antiochus. It was thought there must be a place where the brave dead Jewish soldiers were rewarded for their bravery. Satan also seems to be similar to Ahriman (Angra Mainyu). In Job, he appears as a kind of prosecutorial official in Yahweh's court. Over the years, he seems to have been equated with the Serpent in Genesis and with Lucifer, even though the Bible doesn't explicitly say so.

 

Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, , idolators, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Matthew 5:22"Again, anyone who says "You fool,' will be in danger of the fire of hell.'
So what is this again about no hell?

 

The Bible seems to indicate that when Jesus returned to Heaven he was not immediately enthroned in his Kingdom and I believe that was about the time of World War I that Jesus was enthroned in his Kingdom and at that time Jesus threw Satan out of Heaven.

Of course Satan had a hand in the bad things you mention but since his ouster and confinement to the Earth he has redoubled his efforts to ruin the Earth and mankind.

Even mankind has called them World Wars, showing that they were different and a level worse than anything that went before.

 

As for the "lake of Fire did you not also read what else goes in there, Death and Hell itself? So are we to believe that Death and Hell are to be tortured?

And for the "fire of hell", I believe that here the word used was Gehenna and that was basically the garbage dump of Jerusalem that was kept burning. Nothing was ever thrown in there alive but the bodies of those not considered worth burying after death were thrown in there. Thus Jesus was telling the people to be careful lest they be considered worthless garbage.

 

Without Satan there would be no God without God no Satan

Without Heaven there would be no hell without hell no heaven

Without righteousness there can be no unrighteous act

Without Condeming there be be no forgiving.

Just a thought

 

Seeing as Satan only came into existence after the creation of Adam and Eve, there were billions of years of God without Satan.

Seeing as hell is the common grave of mankind, hell is not the opposite of heaven.

but that doesn't mean that there has to be unrighteous acts.

One does not have to be condemned to be forgiven, they only have to have sinned.

Yep.

 

The entire concept of the Christian bible is focused on the war between God and Satan, and the belief in man being sinful. Without the idea of condemning sin there would be no need for a forgiving Jesus. Without the idea of Satan doing his best to mislead mankind into oblivion there is no need for God who is like a shepard trying to lead his flock away from the wolf in sheeps clothing.

That depends on your interpretation of the biblical scriptures my friend. Heaven in the modern Christian ideal is a place of infinite beauty and worth whereas Hell is a place of torment and decay. To say that hell is not the opposite of heaven would be completly denying the simple truth of cause and effect.

In order for there to be righteouness there must also be unrighteousness in the world. Plain and simple.

Answered this in the first part basically

 

I guess what's trying to be expressed is that Satan, Unrighteousness, and Sin were not part of God's original plan and thus are all unnecessary components and that God is not dependent of them. Whether or not God allowed for the possibility for these things is another story. As for me, it seems God did allow for these things to happen only that he didn't find it necessary for these things to be chosen and hoped no one ever would.

I had a conversation with a friend who is mostly deconverting and he had an issue with Adam and Eve's choice in the garden and argued that God wanted that to happen because how could God who knows all would allow it. Basically, everything that is, is God so therefore God is also sin because there is the possibility to sin. The imagery I would use to describe that position is that a star surrounded by darkness includes the darkness. To me, the darkness is not a thing to be counted as part of the star but is nothing at all. So in this way, sin, unrighteousness and the like are not to be counted as part of God but are a result of moving away from God or from the example, moving away from the star. I just don't count the darkness surrounding the star as a thing. Even if it should be counted as a thing, I don't believe God at all intended for any of these things to occur as part of a plan and if Adam and Eve never sinned there would be no Bible, no need for a sacrifice, and definitely no need for Satan; everything would just go according to plan.

 

Also, whether or not the Bible has one intended interpretation instead of it being more or less and open book. One says yes, other says no, as for me I say yes to one true interpretation; I would go with the Bible expressing that hell (sheol) is not a place of torment but a place of unconsciousness and remembrance for the resurrection. Hellfire on the other hand is like the former but with no resurrection or what's known as the second death and indeed the term second death seems to be very expressive and obvious to me. One would have to ask how many deaths are there and what was the first death if there are two?

Also, why would a benevolent God want his creation to go through such turmoil just to learn that turmoil and bad things are not good things especially if they already had all the good things to begin with? That's like bonking someone on the head and saying, "See, told you that would hurt"

I do agree though that the Bible is a book that expresses many contrasts just that these contrasts aren't always dependent on the other. Although, Satan would be dependent on God for survival.

 

re Satan coming into existence after Adam and Eve, I beg to differ...

Satan is/was a fallen angel. When were the angels created? It isn't in the bible - not that I am aware of...but, since Satan TEMPTED Eve, it would most certainly appear that he (Satan) was alive and well by the time of Adam and Eve.

Seeing as satan was first the most beautiful angel, I would go on the side of him being in existence prior to Adam and Eve.

 

Actually the entire concept of the Bible is God's purpose to make the Earth a Paradise where Mankind can live forever in peace.

As for Satan, the Bible describes a time when Satan didn't exist and shows that there will be a time that he will no longer exist and yet God existed long before Satan and will exist long after Satan no longer exists and so God's existence does not, according to the Bible, depend on Satan's existence.

That is what some "Christians" believe but that is not what the Bible teaches.

If it so simple, please explain why.

Actually no. Someone can be forgiven for something they have done without ever having been condemned for what they did.

 

Couple of things you might want to think about:

Although the angel, who as you say existed before Adam and Eve, he had not yet turned himself into Satan and did not do so until the time of Adam and Eve. So Satan as such did not exist until the time of Adam and Eve.

Also if you want dismiss that and say that he still existed in some form before that, the truth is that since God created the angels that means there was a time that God existed and the angels did not. Thus the point is made that God's existence does not depend on Satan's existence.

 

As for heaven, or the "kingdom of heaven". The kingdom of heaven is not a place to go after death or after any apocalypse and it's origins are with the message of christ.

The kingdom of heaven is at hand, meaning within our grasp. Heaven is a vision of the world s god created it. "Heaven and earth", are diametrically opposed perceptions of the same phenomena.

 

I'm not even going to bother with the first part of this because I already know that it is pointless to try and express logic when it comes to interpretation.

Without unrighteousness we would not have a base on which to describe the act of being righteous thus we would have no need for a concept of righteous or unrighteous. Now just think about that for a second because you didn't get it the first two times and I really hope you will

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
All of these verses imply the condeming of those who not only are sinners but those also who do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.

 

I totally agree here with you. Since (in my understanding) God always was, has been and will be...He came first, creating everything after.