Support the troops?

Polymer, I will totally go check it out. I think we need to take a new approach to things, find ways to stop polluting the earth. We need to find alternate fuel sources, stop destroying the rain forrests, etc. Thanks for the link.

 

it's just my sig, but you're welcome.

google: green chemistry

you'll find a lot of links with articles, ACS's page, and EPA programs with green chem. very progressive stuff

 

Prove to me that the people who think that 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government do not preach their views in the same manner than people who believe that it was an act of terrorism. Prove to me that the people who think the US went to war with Iraq for the oil do not preach their views in the same manner than people who believe it was a defensive measure.

 

Most polls state that the current administration only has about a 33% approval rating, and that 83% believe that 911 was an inside job.

only if the poll was taken using people like we have here.

and pools suck anyways a person can make a poll to get what ever results they want.

they dont leave room for explanation.

like if people flat out asked me this.
do you think the US should be at war in Iraq?
i would have to say.
NO

and many here would answer the same.
but my reason is different than yours. you think we never should have been there at all. i think we should have kicked their asses already.

and i like trees also. and i know they got other things to use instead of oil, but untill we all have cars that run off water we need the oil.so be realalistic.

and for your info im not a war loving go blow somemore up person. but i do think once in a fight you fight to win.

i live on a commune. i use horses and wagons more than i do cars. in fact i take the kids to school on the wagon. we generate our own eletric.and try to grow our own food.And i left the mainalnd states, i left because of the restrictive laws that were becoming passed. and it wasnt the republicans that was passing those laws. it was liberals.
so many restrictive laws telling me what i could and could not do with my own property. and if i could do how it had to be done. and the only way i could do is if i paid enough of a fee for a permit to do it. thats not freedom

so after i took the city to court and got what was left of my property returned that they had not already melted down. i moved. i didnt want to have to fight in court to live anymore. it was only getting worse with every democrate that got elected.

and so whatr if this is hip fourms . i bet if we were not talking about politics, religion or drugs we would probably agree on some things.

i thought part of being a hippy was about understanding of others. i understand you i jsut dont agree and i still dont call you a brain washed stupid fool that cant see the big picture.

i jsut try to take every subject to its simmplest answer.
any program the govermet wants i just wander who is going to pay for it. and that the tax payers. the goverments job is not to feed and provide health care to the nation.

but the goverment does have a clear job to defend the nation and its intrests. i dont know how many times i have to say this. but I DONT LIKE WAR. it is terrible but if your in a war FIGHT TO WIN.

 

What's wrong with this picture is the old, right wing philosophy that sex is dirty and war is clean. That's it in a nutshell.

 

Simple mathematics, really.

War + official statements + unquestioning citizens = cut and dried answers. "Fighting for freedom, troops signed up to get education/goodjobs, Sadam was crazy, WMD, free the iraqis, bin ladin attacked us. Do something instead of just arguing on forums. Vote if you dont like it..."

War + official statements + enquiring minds = many, many possibilities. Many more than the above. Limitless possibilities actually. What if we actually created MORE hatred and more terrorists? What if troops WERE actually misled? What if Saddams government was more accepted than ours? What if there really WERE no WMDs? What if the Iraqis were safer/freer in their old government than they are now? What if we ruined iraq by destroying important historical landmarks and with depleated uranium pollution? What if the war WAS totally based on lies? What if 911 WAS an inside job? What if the US government HAS hijacked the constitution and the American people? What if your vote DOESNT count?
And WHAT IF NO ONE QUESTIONED any of this?

 

not questioning is VERY un-american.

the ones who say "well, if you don't like it, why don't you leave", are the ones with degenerate minds, and they should get the f@ck out. I've never heard an intelligent, sensible person utter such deliberately assinine bs, only sheep.

WWJT? (What Would Jefferson Think?)

because as far as the math goes, flag-waving + complacency does not equal patriotism, neither do silly yellow magnets on the back of the minivan.
I do my part with frequent petitioning, and writing state reps., which is just as effective (if not more so) than voting. Neo-Conservatives are stagnant minded, and are happy with things as they were in the 50's; they have no desire to change anything, like an amotivational teen glued to the couch playing x-box.

 

Gringo, I have to ask:

Why should we have been at war in the first place? I can undertsand the whole Afganistan war, but Iraq? Didn't we invade them with no basis? What exactly did Saddam do to America to cause us to invade them?

Really we shouldn't have set an all out war on Afgan either. They should have sent in special forces and recon teams to capture said terrorist. If it weren't so widespread with media coverage they would have captured Osama Bin Laden by now. However, he really isn't the problem either. It's people who have interpreted the Muslim religon into violence. For whatever reason, their culture brings them up to believe like this. So what do we do with them? Kill off the entire Muslim race? I don't think so. As I have said many times before, there will always be terrorist. In the 60's the FBI called them radicals. Now we call them terrorist and insurgents. They don't fight fairly. There are no rules in the war only those produced by our side i.e. Geneva Conventions. How do you effectively fight a war when you can't see or find the enemy? The Iraqis have set up a government and they are working on the by-laws of their constitution. At what point do we keep holding their hand? I think the U.S. needs to do a mass exit but keep the troops on a ready deployment status and keep the bare mininum of troops nessicary to keep the intial order. If it were to come down to it and the U.S. had to re-enter then at that point in time the full amount of troops would.

We have more important things here at home to be worrying about. Like airport security, the deficit, Homeland Security. Instead of going to attack them why not just keep them out? If they can't get in then how will they attack our cities and people? The biggest problems have the simplest answers sometimes.

I just have one more thing to say. This is for the critics of our soldiers. This is what I gather from certain people. It is my understanding that you guys seem to think the military is wrong. I pose this question to you all, What would you guys say if a country actually invaded our homeland? Would you guys just throw your hands up and say ok take us over? Or would the first thing out of your mouth be omg where is the military?

It isn't nessicarily bad to have a military. Every country in the world has one. It's how the people in power choose to use them that causes you all to blame the military. Really the enity to blame would be the president and congress. How do you blame an entire government for one person overstepping their judical powers? There is obviously something wrong with the checks and balances currently in place. Why not elect people who believe like you to run the government properly? That makes better sense. If our nation cut out the entire military think of how many people and families wouldn't have jobs any longer. Our taxes would go to supporting them in the form of unemployment benifits or welfare. That would be far more expensive than paying a set amount of taxes towards their paycheck. The military isn't a bad thing it's how the people in power use it that causes it to become bad.

 

Left-wing philosophy:Clinton got a blow job
Right-wing philosophy:Clinton committed perjury under oath
Left-wing philosophy:Bush illegally invaded Iraq
Right-wing philosophy:The president of the United States has a right to defend the nation from a formidable threat.

 

BTW, regardless of what I believe, that is how it is seen legally. That is why Clinton was impeached and that is the defense the United States would use if ever taken to court charged with an illegal invasion. At this point in time, the invasion was not illegal. Only a court can decide that. A court did however decide that Clinton did lie under oath. Just wanted to clarify that.

 

well as i KEEP saying i dont like war. and maybe we should not have went to iraq.personally i think saudi would have been a juicier target or Iran, but its done now. what i keep saying and people dont hear is that once commited to a war the people of a country should support the policies. so the war will end and to save lives.

and as i have also already said. since the war on terror started. it was plainly said that your either with us or against us goverment sponsered aid to terrerist or terror groups should be delt with. is why i think saudi would have been a better target, but the result is the same. the US homeland has not had any more planes flying into buildings since the campainge started.

as liberals you should all agree that the needs of the many outwiegh the needs of the few.

the us is a democratic republic. not a democracy and the people elected have a duty to protect americans not the global communitity.

people dont want the US on an offensice stance twards terror but if they do nothing to prevent it what will those same people be screaming when the next jetliners are highjacked and flown into a building.

on 911 those people didnt attack only military targets they attacked the american people aswell.

we as free americans all have the right to disagree and have different opinions about all of these matters. but had OUR great experiment not happened noplace would have the right to say what they wanted on a fourm like this.
got to remember before the US even the liberal allies like england france and spain were still rulled by royal familes and such. so people still were not free. is the 13 colinies revoulted.

so the US is not the best goverment in the world. then which one is? all have done things wrong some have done things right. but nobody or no thing is perfect. doesnt make it right only true.

just as supporting troops and goverment policies once committed to action is the best way to end a war. support the goverment to aid the wars speedy end. doesnt make the war right, but it would be over sooner and with less lose of life. which in the beginning is what the entire thread was about.

during WWII the us even had people protesting the war. but the goverment pretty much ignored them or put them in detainment camps (nice sounding word for prison ) and the war was long and hard and many lives lost, and many even complained when after germany was defeated they nuked Japan. if the US had really wanted to totally destroy and kill as many japonese as possible they would have dropped fat man on the capital. instead they choose a city surounded by mountians to help contain the blast. and they didnt surrender so it took a second weapon to do the job. but how many would have died if they had not used the nuke and instead went with the typical beach invasion?

fighting the war to win saves lives period.
and the goverment let pearl harbor be attacked (no fact just suspission) so they could enter that war.

say the US knew the people were going to attack on 911 what would you have had the goverment do then? go arrest the people on suspission? they would have been out of jail in notime to plot again. maybe round them up and deport them? all they have to do is go get on a plane in spain or france and hijack it when nearing JFK . hind sight is 20/20 stand for something or you will fall for anything. and i stand for my country. not its polititions.

point out a better country.
one where a person can do what they want when they want how they want.
it isnt out there is no such thing.
point out a country that is totally ruled by the people. cant do it cause its not out there.
point out a goverment that has not lied to or mislead its people at point. cant do it.

i agree with the founding fathers.
those that are willing to give up personal freedom for personal safty deserve neither.
but like or dislike the united states the world whould be much worse off if this country had not developed the way it has.
before the united states and the great experiment (democratic republic) where were citizens allowed to vote for leaders,voice their opinions,run for political office, openly speak out against policies ,call the nations leaders names, have a 100% volenteer army instead of conscripts, the right to choose your school ,profession, wife/husband, to have kids or not to have kids. some of those things could be found in various other countries but not all of them. and none of those things are bad.

so ill sit back and let you people call me names over and over again and see if another responce is made that i feel like responding too.

 

Left-wing philosophy:Bush illegally invaded Iraq
Right-wing philosophy:The president of the United States has a right to defend the nation from a formidable threat.

Actually Iraqi, Bush can legally start war after Congress sancations it. However, the Iraqi war was not sanctioned until after Shock N Awe commensed.

Gringo, I was just asking what you thought about the Iraqi war. No need to blow up on me. I am not like a certain person that comes in here and I don't attack anybody. I was just curious as to your thoughts on that since you seem to be so pro-war. Ok, let me rephrase that, now that we are in war you are pro-war.

As far as WWII that was different. If we had not stood up to Japan, then they would most certainly invaded us and tried to take us over. Now you make reference to detainment camps. Ummm, In case you didn't notice, the US uses those on a regular basis. In fact, the government can confine any person at anytime under the basis of the Patriot Act. If the are alleged to be against our government and alleged to be a "terrorist" then they will be confined for an indefinte amount of time. The worst of the terrorist will be tortured until someone gets caught for doing it.

As I stated before, some people just like to complain to complain. I, on the other hand, have questions. I am curious to know what other people think and why they think it. I can't think of any other place I would rather live. I like it here. I think I have always stated that if you don't like the things you are complaining about actively try to fix them. That's the great thing about America, you can do just that.

 

"When you kill someone it is called murder or manslaughter. And there are babies, little kids, women, elderly, all being killed" What do you think was happening before we got there? why do you think we are there? To stop that,Do you think we should just turn our backs and let them do this? do you think are soldiers are going over there and shooting inocent women and children? No,they are going over there to take care of the people murduring there own people.If you like to admit it or not there is evil in this world and nothing is going to stop it unless you do something about it.I think it would be great if there was never another war again,but you have to wake up and realize this is the real world and it will never happen,it would be great if it did happen the world could be paradise but some people are to greaty and stubborn for it to happen. (i apoligize in advance about my spelling)

 

Actually, Bush could have legally started war with Iraq through a resolution passed in 1991, when daddy was in office. However his advisors suggested he run it through the proper channels to avoid ruffling the feathers. Shock & awe began on 03-21-03, the Iraq war resolution was passed in the house on 10-11-02. I believe what you are referring to is the air assault on Iraqi command and control centers, radar defense systems, and air defense systems. Technically this was "shock and awe", as labeled by the Pentagon. Regardless of what it was called, I believe Bush covered his ass before he walked this fine line. I guess we will see if this matter is ever brought to court. Lots of technicalities in this one!!

 

"What would you guys say if a country actually invaded our homeland? Would you guys just throw your hands up and say ok take us over? Or would the first thing out of your mouth be omg where is the military?"

If you are dumb enough to wait for the military to do something for you, you will be in the same boat as many of the Katrina victims who waited for FEMA or some other help to come save them. If this country was to be invaded, I would:
1. Understand why
2. Contact the local militia
3. Grab my gun and my survival gear and hit the woods
4. Help as many victims as possible

 

"do you think are soldiers are going over there and shooting inocent women and children?"

This absolutely IS happening.

 

There was a thread started on here a while back by a soldier in Iraq about how the soldiers loved to shoot dogs in Iraq when they were bored and weren't shooting people, complete with a video! There were tens of thousands of civilians that were killed in the initial bombings before the invasion started. It was estimated that at least 100,000 died from the lack of infrastrucure (clean water, sanitation, medical care) that the bombings caused. Hundreds of thousands of children died due to lack of medical care and food caused by the US led sanctions in the 1990's. I know Iraqi Christians that are afraid to go back home-when Saddam was in power, their churches were protected by law and they had freedom of religion-now, Muslim extremists bomb their churches and kill their relatives, all with impunity. The US invasion has caused a LOT more terrorism than it's prevented.

 

Just support the troops people. They are not evil, and wish to do good rather than harm. If mistakes are made, it is the commanders who are at fault.

 

"support the troops"

to me.. remember they were our childhood friends (for people our age) and they were disinllusioned, lied to and made a dumb decision to join BUT this war wasnt their call.

we shouldnt forget or hate them... sympthy for them? i dont really have it but i do think we should wish them well. they got into something they didnt want to.

 

justwow.. yes, it's the gov. not the troops... imagine us without troops in the world as it really is. its sad but we need them- the troops didnt make the decisions.... they maybe shoulda known when they made the decision to sign up but in many cases they didnt. they have been used very much in many cases.