Stoner Thought

haha

lol, too true

 

id just like to point out that there is no such thing as FREE WILL if your action can be determined before you do it.

if at 3 o clock, you have no intention of buying a beer, you could say, that, if at 4 o clock, you go and buy a beer, it was your choice to do it because you wanted a beer and didnt have a reason to not drink the beer. thus it was your free will because no one made you drink the beer.

however.

at 3 o clock GOD knew you were going to drink a beer.

therefor, you had NO choice in the matter. there was NO way that you could possibly chose not to have a beer, because that would make GOD wrong. even if you undoubtedly get the beer, it is not free will because right now, your actions across time and space are known by something, ie, god, and therefor you are not chosing anything, you are just following the script that god wrote when he created the universe.

that is, if you believe in an all knowing god.

i dont see why god has to be all knowing though. there is no evidence to that. the only slightly plausible reason is that there is so much integrity in the universe that it would make sense IF someone had created the world. but that creator simply had to have powers beyond ours.

nothing beyond time at all. nothing suggests that god knows everything,

in fact, the start of the bible presents a situation where god had to ask a human what they were doing. it wasnt a test to see if they would lie or not, because they told the truth and were still damned. it was that god to the people of the earlier world was more human. he was more based on pagan gods who were characters with powers, but not total omnipotence beyond time and space.

 

I feel that Bill, I personally dont think life is pre-determined. I think Allah knows what you WOULD do in any possible given situation, but I dont think Allah is a fortune teller

 

if he knows what anything 'would' do in any given situation, and he determined the first situation, he therefor determined what everything in the universe would do from then on. unless there are things that god is unaware of. if you believe god knows everything, then you believe the world is predetermined, it is not a matter of it being safer to believe both. you must believe in both or else you dont really believe in either.

anyway the other alternative is that god is aware of everything throughout space but is not aware of the future.

 

Billl, there is no such thing as a future. That only exists in human conception of time. Time is movement, mesured distances. Allah is all knowing, but he does not dictate your future like a puppet master. He allows us to choose what we will. I hope you can get what Im getting at, because at the moment I am JAMMING on some Yes songs so I cant really explain myself properly. Can you see what I mean? He knows, but what he knows, is what you choose, you dig?

 

So every star IS a sun?

 

well, yea :tongue: every star with shit orbiting it would be a sun to its surrounding shit

 

<33

 

Do I sense a YES fan here? Or were you commenting on my description of free will according to Allah through the prophet Mohammed?

 

its fine to say that 'what he knows is what you chose' but that is conflicting with the definition of free-will and what free will means to anyone.

it doesnt matter how you look at time, in fact it helps to understand where i am coming from if you ignore the illusion of time because then everything exists at the same moment which shows why free-will is as much an illusion as the passing of time. in fact its almost the same illusion.

people revel in their ideas of freewill as a means of isolating actions as functions of different identities. a personal choice is free will because the only identity imposing on it necessarily is the person of the body which does the action. the idea that nothing can tell a person what to do or what they are going to do. that there are no restrictions on a person's will. other than what they put themselves.

god does not let us chose anything if he knows what we are going to chose because then what are 'we' if not just manifestations of god's knowlege, thus part of god, and thus not having free will unto our identities at all. we are gods identity and we ourselves have no choice in the matter, we simply 'chose' as in, we act some way or another and we call this our choice. but its not us chosing what we do if it has been determined in other times what we are going to do.

if our choice is 'what he knows' then it is no longer a choice it is no longer an option. there is only one option, and that is what he knows, and no one can chose anything other than what it has been determined that you will do.

 

"sun" is just a word created by humans for the star

so yea, ever star is a "sun"

but some stars [I belive] dont have galaxies orbiting around them like we do

 

In a way, you are right, but you are not in conflict entirley with what I am saying here. 'what he knows' is the same as 'what we choose' but that doesnt mean that we dont have free will. It still takes our mind, body, and soul to carry out the decision making process. And because Allah knows what we have the potential to do with our choices, doesnt mean that it is not our choice! He knows what we will and wont do, but I am not claiming that He reads the future of our actions, I am only stating that He know's on the most purest scale what could potentialy be carried out by every living entity, or 'all knowing' if you will, without the predetermined fate bit that was being discussed. What I am trying to say, is that in the Quar'an, Allah, speaking through the Prophet Muhammed, states that we have 2 angels who follow us and record our free willl, choices we make in life. 1 to record our positive deeds that effect our enviornment of people and, plants, animals, etc. etc. in a well-meaning, proper way (proper = according to the lifestyle, or path, that is layed down in the Holy Quar'an, the true word of Allah,)
And another to record every moment wherein we fail to overcome the desires and urges that arise within us, the demons if you will, which would have us carry out actions that benefit only our unneccesary, insatiable hunger and lust for material possesion, unhealthy wealthy, mental status of superiority, etc., etc. while also stepping upon the free will, comfort, or overall well-being of our surrounding enviorment, including people, plants, animal bla bla bla.
When we die, according, again, to Allah's word, we are presented before him with our two angels by our sides, scrolls in hand, and taking turns you are asked to recite uno by uno each and every desicion you have made during your waking conciousness, possesion of a human body, and a master of your own free will, (so long as you do not allow another human to steal it from and enslave your mental freedom, although only Allah TRULY has this ability if He so desires it to be.)
When one has completed reading to himself and to Allah, the judgement is given and you are either with Him, or you are in hell (which is without Him, under the garden, the garden of personal heaven in which the seeds of spirituality SHOULD have been not only planted during conception, birth, and innocent childhood, but watered and soiled, loved and cared for, worked for in order to see that the seed grows into a blossom of love and acceptance, of brotherhood and sisterhood, of worship, gernerocity, and alms giving/volounteering, which in turn when one has led a proper life, in accordance to the pure love of Allah and of our fellow positive earth dwelling creatures, will not only bloom but continue to grow into your own personal Heaven) and once again, I repeat that hell IS NOT ETERNAL according to the true words of Allah, but you are forgiven and allowed to compensate for your misfortunate deeds comitted during your lifetime inhabiting a flesh covered shell.
Basically, the truth of what the Quar'an purpose is, that Allah does NOT control you, He has given you the opporitunity to be either with Him or against Him, and he does not discriminate against believers and non-believers, because He knows that one days we will all meet Him, so therefore there is no purpose in His controlling us. Any human who tells you otherwise is re-writing His perfected word in order to satisy their own personal insecurity and/or personal gain, i.e. cultist terrorist orginizations, or other religions like christianity or judaism which not only claim Muhammed to be a liar, murderer, cult leader and ruthless convertor, but they actually condemn followers of Islam and non-conformists to hell for eternity, wether or not they CHOSE to take the time to learn and eventually worhip their perverted version of God (all loving, knowing, and forgiving my ass!) also, wether or not they were even born into a society or lifestyle in which one could even find out about the damn religion!
So in conclusion, I realize that this was a very poorly written ramble on of disorganized thought processed into writing, but I am standing by my statement that Allah does not determine our ultimate fate UNTIL we have completed our life journey in this perception of reality that we are all a part of, which in turn means that we do have free will, in the cleanest sense of the term and concept, and they WE decide wether or not Allah will smile upon us when we come face to face with Him.
(Also, keep in mind when reflecting upon anything I have written here, that people are killed DAILY for trying to give and sort of exactly defined, self proclaimed imagery of Allah, Heaven, or hell. The Quar'an uses many metaphors to describe in a broad sense Allah, heaven, hell, angels, demons, etc. but never once will give you a clear picture, because it is impossible for us to understand the holy perception of the next life. Example would be how I explaind our personal garden of Heaven, the garden is the blossomed state of the seeds of our spirituality that we chose wether or not to plant and grow during our life. Heaven can not be described any more than that since we would have to give it more and more imagery, which leads to perverted, twisted misconceoptions of its ultimate reality, leading to things such as terroritsts who think they are going to be kings among angels in Heaven if they blow up and kill as many 'infadesl' as possilbe. After all, the GREATEST JIHAD of all, is the battle of free will that we engage in in almost every waking moment of life, and in the near death state of sleep.)

 

But they are all contained in galaxies of some sort, contained in dark matter, as the gravitational pull of a star harnesses the grasp of anything smaller than itself which is not being guided by an outside force with an itial and sustaining power of propulsion more powerful than the star itself. (I think :tongue: )

 

By the way, smokingdude, since you started this thread Im sure you will read my long, painful on the eyes to read post :tongue: and keep in mind, I accept all religions, people, and opinions (so long as they are not bent on the destruction and perversion of my religions, or out to kill me for my beliefs) and when I stated that christianity and judaism were twisted faiths, I am in no way referring to every christian or jew, or to what the original intent and purpose of the religions is, I am reffering to the re-writing of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the people who say that if you are not in a agreement with the faith that Jesus is the direct son of God and a direct member of the Holy Trinity, then you will burn in hell for eternity. I have met plenty of people from both faiths who I would consider some of the most open-minded, generally all around nicest people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. And in case you did not know, Islam is a brach off set of values directly related to and based in the same history (well, to an extent) and god. We believe as Muslims that Jesus was a great man, a very intelligent preacher/teacher, and that Allah had spoken to him. Same goes for Moses. Only, we do NOT believe that any human being could possilby be directly related in the sense of family, i.e. a 'son' of Allah, since He has no human properties other than His name. We do not believe in the trinity, and we also do not believe that Muhammed was a son of Allah or an angel or any bullshit like that, however we do believe that he is the greatest, and LAST prophet whom Allah has spoken through directly. The Holy Quar'an is that itself, the direct, esoteric, unfallable word of Allah as given to, spoken through Prophet Muhammed. He was not God, he was not realted to God, and Allah said through him, (i dont remember word for word, but something along the lines of: ) there being no point in converting others to Islam, if they are to discover Islam they will in their own way, according to their own freewill. We will all meet Allah someday, and we should all do good deeds and respect each other and ourselve's without reading the blessed words of Allah in the Quar'an, without going to mosque to pray, withouht even knowing how to pray, or even knowing about Allah at all! All people should help others and respect others on their own, the Quar'an is only existing as a guide for us so that we have refernece to His existance We are no Quar'an thumpin' preachers, we practice and pray in solitude and in mosque on occaision, we pray 5 times a day, we are always reflecting upon Allah and our chosen path, but not everyone can possibly do so, and Allah understands this, and He forgives all of us for our faults.

 

a univurse ignorant of geometry....would cause "geometry", the word and the meaning, to cease to exist. a rock is still a rock if noone knows about it. though it would have no identity.

 

i dont have enough time to read all this, ill come back to it! but in the last line did you mean that being in a sleep state is like near death? hm slightly confused, our brainwaves when we are asleep (REM) are just as active as they are while we're awake

 

okay this got way too long. im down for the count on this thread haha. but relayer that was wise what you said about the future, that it is purely a concotion fed by perception.

 

here's a video pretaining to the subject kinda, check it out, very cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw&eurl=