so whaddy guys think of this new law for immigrants...

in the uk we have a limited carrying capacity in a few years we wont have fossil fuels, no coal no oil no natural gas .
its been estimated that we can support 35 million people in those conditions maybe a lot less Ive seen 9 million no ones that sure
our population now is 60 million and you want to add to that number ?.

clearly a lot of countrys are in overshoot http://dieoff.org/

read that site and if you dont understand it read it a few times , the man who wrote the site jay hansen looked at the subject for 10 years and became a semi-hermit in the pacific, the subject depressed him that much.

I think maybe some people in the EU can see whats likely to happen and are making plans to deal with it , I wish them the best of luck , I worry about the part where we (the uk ) have a opt out clause , I worry about the fact that none of you can see the coming big picture .

could this country be self-sufficient in food and fuel and clothes without oil and the sort of world we have based on oil, which is going to end .

 

I dont think anyone has ignored the points you raised. yes a country cannot keep expanding without there being consequences, but the way they are trying to deal with it, i dont think is justified.

 

and even if all that is true, how does that justify keeping someone in a prison for 18 months because they overstayed?

 

if you make it against the law to overstay , well they broke a law if you break a law you can be jailed .

read the site he puts a great case that we are heading for mass worldwide starvation and massive die-off of the world population .

all this could happen quite quickly under those circumstances Im sure there will be calls for machine guns to be mounted round the borders, because people will be starving everywhere and we wont be able to feed more people in fact we wont be able to feed the people we have .

a 18 month prison term is a lot less drastic than being shot .

I really dont think you understand what Im trying to explain .

the reason the world for the most part is well fed is fossil fuels , before them our population wasnt over a billion now its 6 billion and rising .

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html

take some time to read through the sites im linking to and think about the implications ,what would we need to do to make this a sustainable country , can we do that with what in effect are open borders . could we make all countrys sustainable, some countrys even when they are starving and are in clear overshoot are still increasing their population can we in the uk stop this ?
and if not would it be sensible to import millions of people with these attitudes here ?

the uk itself would have a declining population apart from immigration the same applys to the west generally and japan and maybe china Im not actually sure about china but their trying.
some people sal for example thinks thats a bad thing but its not its a sign of hope that we could get to be able to live in our countrys without having a massive dieoff because of overshoot .
we would still need to get rid of our culture of consumerism and the amount of resources we use so we still have problems to deal with

http://globalpublicmedia.com/dr_albert_bartlett_arithmetic_population_and_energy

 

jonny, has that answered the question. I think you are muddying the waters.
Remember we are talking about the here and now. Not some time in 10-15 or even 200 years time. It is about how we deal with the situation we are faced with now, not some esoteric future covered in projections.

 

well its not that far off it looks likely that the world peaked in conventional oil in 2005 , and even if it was 10-15 years off we would need to have done things many years before to make any difference .

I dont think Im talking about anything esoteric and if you think I am I think its because your not taking the time to read the links Im posting

run through life after the oil crash its two pages not much to read

I would question whether its wise to accept asylum seekers let alone economic migrants if your in a country like the uk

 

Jonny you are answering a completely different question to the one being raised. Peak oil and population sustainability is a very important issue which deserves to be addressed and discussed, but so does the issue of human rights and how we treat people who break immigration laws. The latter is an important point which needs to be addressed on its own terms rather than simply dismissed as irrelevant as you are doing.

Anyway, I sincerely doubt this somewhat draconian law has anything to do with the kind of Malthusian reasoning you're coming up with here.

 

johnny, no offense or anything, but i think you are definitely the one missing the point. i have known people who were here in the country illegally. these people were genuinely nice and had never done anything to harm anyone. but by your logic because in 10 - 15 years time we won't have enough oil and possibly enough food, then it's completely 100% ok for these individuals to be put in prison (without any recourse to a lawyer, appeals, etc) for 18 months ... we're talking a year and a half of their life, taken away from their families and friends, just because for they chose (or had to) stay in a country without permission, regardless of the circumstances involved or anything.

that absolutely blows my mind that you, or anyone, would remotely think that it is ok to do this to anyone.
i stand by my statement that if someone feels this way that this 'ok' or something that is necessary that they themselves should have to face the same situation and see how it feels to have their basic human rights violated.

even if you kill someone you are allowed due process of law, aren't you? are you not even allowed to appeal the decision if you are found guilty? but well, if you have lived somewhere illegally, then what, you have absolutely no rights and obviously are the scum of the earth and really should be taken out and shot as evidentially you are the most deplorable person in the world for encroaching on someone else's territory.

 

and that statement sickens me

 

I think peak oil and sustainability and human rights are very closely linked or very soon will be .

we have to understand that we have lived in very rich times those times are ending, even if you listen to the extream optimists peak isnt far off and it looks like those optimists are wrong and we have just passed peak .

I think we are near facing a dillema like the 1850s captain in a overloaded lifeboat that was built for 20 people with 40 people inside it that was sinking .

what he did was throw 20 people out to drown because if he had kept the 40 people in the lifeboat it would have sunk and they all would have drowned , his actions he reasoned would save the greatest number of people .

lets imagine another captain who instead of throwing people out added to their number so that you had 60 people on the lifeboat would this be wise action on his part .

we have laws to discourage behavior , as far as I know you cant say you were poor therefore you stole a load of food from tesco , it may be taken as a mitigating circumstance but not a defence that will allow you to continue stealing .

its very likely that even with that defence you will end up in jail , so to you shouldnt be able to say I live in a poorer country therefore I will break the laws of another country and move there illegally and not expect to be jailed .

Im not sure why their not allowed appeal or legal council but who would pay for that legal council , the taxpayer would already be paying for the costs of imprisoning the person .

I imagine the idea of jailing people is to discourage them from coming and living here illegally , if you just sent them back that wouldnt discourage them enough .

and Ive known lots of nice people living here illegally but there are lots of nice people living here legally , I dont think we can home all the billions of people who might want to move here without destroying life for the people already here .

our problem is our resouce usage and how we move to a society that uses less of everything in the uk the average person uses 11 barrels of oil a year in usa 25 barrels per year plus metals and other materials .

if your serious about helping people in the rest of the world use radically less

 

Saying your point makes it OK for someone whos done nothing but be in the wrong place to be locked up for 18 months is a bit strange when the people who apparently are supposed to be here are already OVERconsuming what we do have. If you see what i mean I mean thats hardly their problem, is it

As for discouragement, you know people would just do it anyway for that better life for their families or whatever, and take that risk (It would definitely be worth it for a lot of people, especially those with children) You have to imagine people would get caught and jailed for the full 18 months, because thats what this law has the potential to do

Even if you were right, nothing cancels out the fact that locking someone from goodness knows wat kind of background up for doing nothing but be on a certain bit of land for that amount of time is just horrendous

 

To your first point, have you actually loooked around and seen the way were living!?

If you have, what youre basically saying is sod the basic human rights of those less fortunate because we want to roll around in abundance

To your second, you need to look closer to home

And the comment about shooting them appalled me aswell. Just goes to show its so easy to say "illegal immigrant" and forget that these are human beings usually come from dire circumstances. Unless youd happily talk about your family getting shot as an option, obviously

 

:hurray: couldn't agree more.

 

It does not look like the increased upper limit of detention is going to apply in UK detention centres.

I think we might want to step away from the word 'Prison'.
Detention centres are not prisons.
I'm sure many would argue, essentially they are.
I don't think so, as I do not think it is designed as a punishment.

I've read through this thread a few imes, and It seems that some people are under the impression people are going to be locked up in prison, for 18 months. I don't think this is true. The proposal is to increase the time people can be kept in detention centres. 18 months being the absolute maximum, and 6 months being the average time spent. It is not an arbitary 'sentence' meeted out to all.

This debate (in this thread) is giving a sideways glance to the detention of illegal immigrants/failed asylum seekers detention. In effect, any detention, however long or short it may be. Which is an entirely different debate IMO. That debate is about what we should do with these people instead. On that issue, I have little faith in my fellow UK citizens, to react in the same manner as the majority of people within this thread (me included). There is enough distrust and accusations of preferential treatment, towards SUCCESSFUL migrants. I shudder to think how people would react towards FAILED undocumented migrants milling around. Personally, I'd probably not be aware or overly concerned if the government decided to house a person or family next door to me.
As long as they got their address correct, and I did not recieve their mail
(as I do not live alone and would not wish to shoulder the responsibility of keeping abreast of misdirected mail.) I'd not give a toss.

IMO, some of the arguements jonny raises, I don't think they are relevant , because this is not about population control. As we do not have any upper limits to the amount of people who can come in to this country. In any case, in effect, it is against the law, if you consider anybody within the EU, can move where ever they wish. The ebb and flow of people will depend on economic factors (getting a job for e.g.) Not about "peak oil". And as pleasant as the UK can be, I doubt billions of people would wish to move here (as Jonny has envisanged.)

If I have misread what anybody has said or my info is wrong, please let me know.

 

I was talking with a friend earlier he doesnt think 18 months prison would work as a deterent , and the uk doesnt have a population policy its sad because that just means a hell of a lot of uk people will soon die .

I think your talk about human rights is total nonsense you dont have a human right to live in any country you like illegally no more than you have a human right to come and live in my house when I dont want you there .

look out in your garden and the animal world and the normal response to animals who invade the territory of other animals is you attack them.

are you appalled when you see birds attacking other birds over territory ? why do birds do this.

 

well, y'all know the USA is having a huge amount of trouble with illegal immigrants. it's not the people i have a problem with, it's the stress on the system. i imagine, with such a small country as the UK, it would be very difficult. we don't have universal healthcare here, but immigrants do. it's very costly. then there's the burden on the educational system. it's difficult, but i do have sympathy. i'm not ENTIRELY offended by some amount of time in a sort of detention area, a couple weeks while they're vetted and such. but 18 months seems pretty awful to me.

 

It seems it is a 'worse case scenario'.
If the person is uncooperative or the returning country refuses to take them.
I can't believe how far we have come off the point.
I guess some how it is all connected.

 

It would probably take as much energy to detain all the illegal immigrants for 18 months as it would to let them stay.

 

shame but not everything can be judged by energy expenditure, the migration of peoples involves quite a few other parameters that need consideration

 

Here if you are 'bad' at school you get a detention as a punishment do you not?

Maybe they are not prisions, but people are still being detained. Yes they may have access to education and healthcare, but then again so do prisions. What about the overcrowding problems in the news over the past couple of years, where people have been locked in a single room for 'unacceptable periods of time'.

It might not be a prison but is isnt far off.