"Sissyphobia":

I've got the sense that the UK is far less polarised in terms of ultra-faggy/ultra-butch than the US is. Unless you're exaggerating, there's a lot more variation between the two extremes. Couple of guys who've come here from across the pond (US and Canada) have said that they can't tell who's gay because our straight dudes dress pretty faggy compared to the ones at home.

 

The fem cross-over was strictly an '80s phenomenon in clubs and on the streets because of music, new wave and its many hybrids, punk, goths and the tail end of the disco. The '90s ended all that. Things became more defined. You see artistic people here and there, but they don't count because they're in their own world. Today if you dress up in gay clubs, they'll either think you just got off work as a clothing clerk or you're a fashion faggot. America today is dressed down. Nobody wants to be accused as being diva. If you wear something fancy then you better have the bank account to back those up. America today is like a third world country. The rich is rich and poor is barely surviving and the middle class is losing its ground. You hear Lou Dobbs bitch about the deminishing middle class.............. So clubs today is pretty much defined. You wear an outfit to convey your preference. You basically play a role. If you don't, you'll probably get ignored by the ones you're after because they have someone in mind as is. Gay guys today are basically fetishists. They're back in that '70s leather game mode. Leather is a state of mind and every gay is caught in it. You don't have to wear leather to be leather. Have you ever seen Cruising with Al Pacino? You wear a drag to attract the ones you want. If you're rich, then that's a totally different ball game because you don't have to play any of these queer games. You create your mind fuckings. Money is a known aphrodisiac. There are always deviants to the rules of the game, but why would you want to deviate when you don't have the money to back up your eccentricities. Practically all people who go to club want to hook up quickly and efficiently. Why fight the game to get you laid? This is gay America, not androgenous England.

 

Wow. It sounds absolutely revolting.

 

Agreed. With the internet, people have the choice to avoid the club games because you are either a hit with the guy you are conversing with or it's a miss, but if a person enjoys the games and the costumes, the clubs are the places to go. Outdoor sex is also based on costumes and specific behaviors to trap your prey.

 

This tells you that they've been indoctrinated with the way things are in gay America, be it club setting or outdoor hunting.

 

edit --- double post

 

Since it's much easier to follow the natural order of things instead of construct and maintain your own dynamic, it comes as no surprise to me that androgyny complements masculinity, that outlandishness complements conventionality, that submissiveness complements dominance. But one certainly not extrapolate these characteristics too far.

I don't have a real problem with effeminate gay guys per se, as I've seen some cute one naturally create a hue of attractiveness with their effeminacy. This capacity is not in everyone's domain, though.

I tend to think that such femininity is more biological than contrived, at least as it pertains to one's mental constitution. The point of absurdity in the extent and depth of such traits is also the point of exaggeration.

 

But probably is not a matter-of-fact. I've met several bikers who can't defend themselves without using a weapon of some sort. Have you heard of butch fems, drag on wheels, bearded chix?

 

"works a little better" in what sense though? I don't see the point in taking on a persona for anything other than one-night stands, because you'd either have to drop the façade at some point or maintain it forever. Much though it might piss me off that being myself doesn't get me laid, it's still infinitely preferable to adapting myself around my sexuality - going to the gym half the time, changing my wardrobe, labotomising myself with pills and watching mind-numbing cack like Sex And The City just so I can join in conversations about them - and probably still not getting laid!

Maybe it's okay to put on an act - we all do it on some level - but I don't think I could ever do it. I've never been able to make myself see the point of doing it. If I fake who I am to get laid, then I can't really claim that someone slept with me, because they didn't sleep with me, they slept with the person I was pretending to be.

And that's why I don't get laid.

 

Sure.

 

I think that's where I see a major difference in our opinions... Perhaps, what I think you're saying is wrong though.

I don't think feminine men or flamboyant men are acting a certain way to attract friends or lovers. There is no doubt that some do (as you pointed out, we all "act" a certain way) but I think many (at least of the fem guys I've met) are truly being themselves. However, I may have a different take on it seeing how I avoid the club scene.

As Aesthete pointed out above, I think the feminine personality is more "biological" than anything else.

 

It was in response to that particular post, which seemed to imply that, if someone wanted to be seen as attractive on the club scene, they would have to conform to either the butch or the fem stereotype, whether that was "natural" for them or not. My issue with that is that I have enough of an ego to think that someone sleeping with me because I put on an act isn't really sleeping with me. I know that personality isn't always a choice, but we can decide what we play up or play down.

 

Ha! Me too, I hated that show, but had to keep up with it so i knew what everyone was talking about

 

Ah. I just watched one, learned the characters' names and personalities and never watched it again. Funnily enough, I could still talk about the show with people. It really was one of the most lazily written things on TV ever though, made Married With Children look like Gravity's Rainbow. It does annoy me that gay culture seems to be even more low-brow than straight culture now, considering how a few decades back we pretty much dominated the arts and media.




*Carrie = normal one, Samantha = slutty one, and there were a couple of others that didn't do much. One of them might have been ginger perhaps?

 

Finding a partner? Sissy or macho? The ease of finding a partner depends on the person. If a person knows how to work it, then no problem regardless of that person's demeanor.

 

I gathered that once you've reached the 10 year marker in a live in relationship, the play acting disappears. Scarry thought? For some it is. It's been known to cause breakups once the facade's gone. Practically all my friends live for the hunt and acting. Are they wrong? Who am I to judge.

 

Ten years?! Jesus... I mean, I can imagine that some things you'd not feel comfortable doing or saying around your partner, but there I'm talking little social niceties that you'd afford anyone. Ten years of not being yourself... I dunno, like I keep saying I'm not exactly getting laid regularly or anything, but it seems like if you've left it that long to drop the act you probably deserve anything you get.

Personally, I wouldn't say that they were, but I'd certainly be thinking it very hard. I guess it depends, playing the game is fine as long as it's consensual - that is, as long as it's understood by all involved that they don't have to play.

 

Depends how we're defining "sissy" really. I know loads of girls who prefer the girlier end of guys - you know, dudes in bands who don't speak much? - usually after they've had really bad experiences with more masculine guys.

If you're talking seriously sissy, floating around guys, then yeah, maybe.

 

Agreed, but you also have to take into account that not all are evolved. Some people are also too busy with their careers to think about being a human being instead of a machine to make someone else rich. Some people are also too caught in the games and they lose themselves and it sometimes takes a lot of work or miracle to get over the mind fuckings, baggage. When I lived in SF and NY, many gays are caught in the party, sexed, drunk and drugged schedule. This is nothing new unfortunately. It also happens in the str8 world. It might even happen to you. Sometimes it takes a special excuse to get you started in that direction. Like a heartbreak, for example. Feeling trapped and thinking that you don't have a bright profitable future is another. Having an addictive characteristic...... Low self esteem........ Hooking up with the wrong crowd by choice or by accident......... Accidents and shits happen all the time...... Many excuses........... I'm sure you have a strong character to over come a lot of life's many tragedies, but not many people are like you, at least most people I've met live on a tight rope. It so easy to get caught. Life can turn on a dime. It only takes a minute second. It's one of the main reasons I pray all the time. I was never sheltered. I actually lived in a Dickensian world early on in life. It only started letting up a year and a half ago or less and I'm 46 now, but who's complaining. I'm very thankful to be alive and enjoy living. Nobody deserves to get shit on, but if that's what you get you rise above it or die. There are also people out there who are willing to help. [size=-1]Ask, and it shall be give you ; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. I'm not a Bible thumper but this rings true to me. [/size]

When it comes to casual friends and sexual partners, I don't mind the games because it's really none of my business what goes on in their minds to get aroused and what motivates them to work me out. When it comes to serious relationship material, I'd certainly be thinking very hard. I don't want any negative surprises later on. Right about now I don't want any heavy relationships. Don't have time. I have other things and situations I want in my life right now.

 

There are dominant women out there and this is a great opportunity for them. I've met people in this arrangement and I've only known two heterosexual men who are effeminate. One is my boss and his a great father.