Shaivism vs. Vaishnavism

Since all paths are within God, I don't see how one could lead from God. Even Maya designed for your entertainment is within God, and I don't think God would allow you more than a twinkling of discomfort (in the big scheme of things). Of course, to a child, the slightest pain seems like the end of the universe, but then, after seconds or years, their eternal sadness passes....

 

I think Molly was refering to athiesm or perhaps a kind of evil....could these lead to God. Truthfully I don't know...

 

The path is circular. The path that seems to lead away is only a longer route to the same end.

 

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 4, verse 11:

All of them--as they surrender unto Me--I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prtha.

 

It seems to depend on the direction of the individual. Some are consciously attempting to come to know God, others are wholly absorbed in a material consciousness, and all their energy goes into that. Whether they know it or not, they are still supported at every instant by the Divine, but the person engrossed in the outer activities is not at all conscious of that.

In due course of time, it is certain that they will become aware, even though many lives may pass before that happens.

But still there does seem to be a distinction between modes of being and action that lead towards realization, and those which lead only deeper into entanglement. In that sense there are paths that lead away from God.

 

What I meant was everybody who wants to, can find God in their own way, according to a path which appeals to them. That's what Hinduism preaches.

 

Well, actually you did .

However, after all this time I am still not really satisfied with what has been said so far. How did you decide on the god you have chosen?

 

also, if none of the candidate Gods are unacceptable as the object of your sole devotion, you can make up a suitable God

 

It is not a decision. You don't decide to love. You just love.

 

If God is a destination, then you have to wonder about which path to take in order to reach him, but the reality is not that at all. We may mention that the ultimate destination is God, we are "going" to God, but really God is right here with us, right now, its just like the rig vedic verse that talks about the two birds on a tree... One is eating a fruit (Soul), while the other (God) watches the one eating the fruit, the one that is eating does not realize its true nature unless it turns to the one watching it.

 

listen, i think this is all very complicated to you, because you are making it so complicated, and it really does not have to be.

Hinduism does not have strict rules to follow, if you are happy in worshipping Saraswati while you study for an exam, and are comfortable worshipping Mahadev while in Danger, go ahead, who is stopping you. You just need to know that the Saraswati , Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma, all these are the one supreme Lord, who may appear to you in all these forms to shower you with his mercy, and to aid you in your journey. Ultimately you are going to go to him, therefore do not worry about anything else, just remember at the back of your mind that you are worshipping the same person .

 

Umm, i dont know about this one... and I will tell you why i am uncomfortable with this idea, you see every God in Hinduism means something and has a symbol and a purpose behind those symbols. You can't just create symbols for yourself and you can't just create Gods at your whim, it doesn't work that way.

 

Actually it does work that way. In Srimad Bhagavatam the same is said - te lord is infinite and has infinite avatars and forms. You can worship whichever is dear to your heart and if none of them please you then you create a form in your imagination, a form that represents the divine to you and worship it with all love and devotion and you will reach Sri Narayana only.

The problem is Jedi. we get so caught up in the symbolism and mystical meaning, that we forget the value of pure direct love for the lord, as he is. That total single pointed devotion is the highest meditation.

 

Yes he is in infinite forms, but that does not mean that you can go around worshipping dogs and cats, such worship leads to ignorance. There are three modes of being, sattva , Rajas and tamas, we have to elevate ourselves to Satvic bhava to get closer to God. Why?- because the supreme personality of Godhead is all about infinite knowledge, beauty and light, one should worship images that depict that- which are termed "Sattvic", and try to avoid anything that is rajasic or tamasic, so we should avoid worshipping frogs - like molly tries to suggest here.

The problem here is that if you start creating your own image of God, you may run the risk of creating an image of God in Rajasic Bhava or Tamasic Bhava, such things do not take one closer to God.

 

You know Jedi, I wonder if that isn't precisely what some of the religions have done - take the Old Testament Yaweh or Jehova - vindictive, violent, jealous, cruel.....and the Allah of the Islamist extremist is just as bad.

However - even in hinduism there are forms which are commonly worshipped which depict energies which can't be classed as sattvic- images for example of Kali dancing in the graveyard garlanded with human skulls...also in Tibetan Buddhism there are the 'wrathful ones' - but they lead just as much to liberation as the more peaceful and 'nice' forms.

 

The only thing is if you see God in everything...then does it matter what you worship...if all is one to you...? Like I understand you have to be careful...but still, in essence...does it matter?

 

If you actually see God, then no image is necessary.
In the end, all the images we have in our intellect of God are more or less limited and distorted - the direct experience is the thing.

 

The purpose of the symbols and forms in our life is as a focal point for our devotion, because to the less subtle intellect, a form is needed. However, as the love grows, we see the whole world more and more as a manifestation of that beloved object and therefore love all beings, including ourselves. And that love is not different from enlightenment. In this therefore, the question of the gunas does not even arise. Gunas come into play when we pray FOR something, not when we love.

And worshipping a cat or dog or cow is higher than worshipping an idol, because the divine is more obviously manifested in a living, feeling creature than an inert piece of wood or stone.

 

To quote a famous famous shloka:

aakashaat patitam toyam
yatha gachati saagaram
sarva deva namaskaraha
keshavam pratigachati

Just as the water that falls from the sky wends it's way to the ocean eventually,
the prayers directed at all objects of worship finally reach the supreme lord alone.

 

What a pretty sholka...I v. much like that indeed.

It makes me think of this particularly inspiring (to me anyway) passage from a book I randomly found last year:

"When Ram was very little he showed his father a picture book of Indian Gods and asked: 'How many hands does God have, Pitaji?'
Taken aback by the question, Aakash decided on the spot to take on the role of his son's educator.
'Baba, take a deep breath.' Ram did as he was told while his father watched, his intensity amplifying the silence around them.
'God was in that breath you took. Now do it again.'
Ram took many deep breaths, until every cell of his body was filled with the life force that his father so wanted him to feel as his birthright.
'You see, it's got nothing to do with the pictures of God. God is in your heart. And surely you can always feel the presence of God when you breathe in and intend to feel it. God resides in you, my darling beta, and breath is the life force that's given to you. God is not in the statues or pictures. But you can love the images, just as you love the feeling in you.' "

-from The Seduction of Silence by Bem Le Hunte