Say No ! To Id Cards !!!!!

Sorry, i just wanted to get some info. I will read it all with interest. I will respond more, when xmas is over and my mind is back in order.

Well i try to be, where i'm not i ask. You have interconnected a few things to this, that i was not completly aware of [guilty till proven innocent]. Plus the way you interpreted certain things threw me [Not being allowed on the street].

Thank you.

Ok thanks .

 

I dont know if you missed one of my posts at post number 98 in this thread
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3099085&postcount=98

 

tony blair has gone crazey and has got an id card
I thought this was funny

 

just about says it all that card does
its even got a picture thats 10 years out of date

 

No, it just had more than i could handle at that time. I responded to one i could, with the time i had.

I had read the segment of the legislation you posted. I just did not interprete it in the same way you have. The above is sometimes why i get a little thrown. Imho it relates to the small percentage of people who would be refused a passport, have no legalility in being in the UK. The same type of reasons, some people already are refused a legal status in this country.

Imho that is pretty much the same thing.

I still can't figure out 'not entitled to be on the street'. Apart from the critics, i can't find any govermental releases that indicate that we will have to compulsory carry the card. I always have to leave that door open, so do not ignore the possibility. I just have not read anything that points towards that.

''It will not be compulsory to carry a card with you.''

http://www.identitycards.gov.uk/faqs-topten-compulsory-have.asp

I would have to consider the reasons a individual has had there ID card withdrawn. I think because they are being used for many differing purposes, it might be the case that all our rights and libertys are seemingly being infringed, the legislation just covers many differing aspects all in one place. That are also within other legislation concerning other forms of ID and ''permit to travel' documentations etc .

It is going to be used as a passport. I won't get into paranoia as to why it is at the bottom. I thought it was common knowledge these would also double up as a passport. So yes it is a 'permit to travel', just like a passport.

''I do not believe government has anything to back up its claims to be a legitimate authority other than it has force at its disposal'' . Maybe a completly different thread. I think you may have a few more ''issues'' than this ID card scheme. I'll have to read some of your previous posts to get aquainted with some of them.

I'll repeat .. i have not seen where it states we will have to carry it all the time. The police are not gaining any further powers than they already have. No new police powers are being added.

Imho it is just going to be for those types of things. Better banking , better identification , easier travel. I might be a fool.

How would you amend it ?.

 

They need to clarify points of law and especially concerning th status of subjects who have their card withdrawn and exactly under what conditions that card can be withdrawn.
There are other parts that need clarification but its 5:15am and I cant remember which without looking but you get my drift

Also You will note that under each of those points of law the home secretary can make amendments to the act under powers he already has. Other parts of the act require readings in both houses and a vote. I believe the home secretary should not have any powers to amend these acts whatsoever at his discretion
the act needs to be more fully defined and the home secretaries powers limited

The reason I stated above is enough to answer this. Even legal experts dont agree on the substance of that point so I dont think we will get anywhere arguing it as it merely gives the case every fine detail of this act should be clarified within the act itself.

Believe me - this will be used eventually as a passport to travel this country

AH I see what you mean -that is for when the cards are voluntary (Up until 2009) After which it will be compulsory to have the card and at that point you can be asked for that card by a police officer - or he can request that you produce the card at a police station.

Suppose you dont have a card! and then you are asked for your card !
If the home office withdraws it - then you dont have a card and so being on the street will in effect bring you a £2000 fine
at the court they will say - where is your card? again you wont have one
how are you going to exist without that card?

The police dont need any new powers - the last fredom from the police concerning your identity is the fact that during stop and search you do not have to supply your name and address to a police officer unless he is arresting you - this card will change that - since all he has to do is request that you produce it within 24 hrs or whatever

I dont see why I need a licence in my own country

 

no2id.net have a forum where you can get all the answers and you dont even need to sign up to ask questions.
you can start threads and post replys without logging in or signing up
http://forum.no2id.net/index.php

 

Thanks Rah, strangely enough I just found this link I was going to add to my previous post but I'll drop it here - its a wikipedia article about the British id card scheme
This is a very good account of exactly what the UK id card scheme is about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_national_identity_card

 

thaks dude that link is good I read most of the wikipedia page
and found this that will interest people
these are what most people think is wrong with the idea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_national_identity_card#Concerns

the goverment is wrong if it thinks it wont get hacked and it might mean people are blackmailed or have identity theft against them and loads of other things

 

the wikipedia article is really a mine of information
I just found this website that doesnt just cover id cards but a host of other issues and info - apparently its a non-party thinktank
http://www.reform.co.uk/website/home.aspx

 

.

I agree on that point.

Can it be made any more transparent ?. Illegal immigrants, illegal workers. I guess you primarialy mean the people legaly allowed to be and work in this country. Well why are other forms of ID and such withdrawn ?...i think it will be the same rationales .

I do.

Hint: Use your computer before 12pm..

Nothing is chrystaline, amendments are always going to be required. Each one does need a debate somewhere though.

Fair enough, and fair point. Even though i think nothing can be chrystaline from the get go.

Do you mind awfuly if i don't believe you ?. Apart from maybe pensioners useing it instead of a travel pass.

Ah I see. You will be in prison for upto 51 weeks if you do not have a card. I see your point now, but don't forsee many people falling into that category. You maybe one of the few. You will have to let me know what happens.

Will it not be that if he/she does not arrest you or feel that you are not legally in this country, she/he will not ask for you to produce your ID. Unless that will be ANOTHER question they ask [e.g where are your driving particulars]

I don't agree with your logic....but

I am glad you are fairly reasonable. You maybe one of the few people that i have spoken to that articulates the pittfalls so well. Thank you.

 

I'd read quite a lot of that. maybe one of the better elements of that site.

No more trouble than they already have...wich is ?????



Plans designed to keep costs down will see the information spread across three existing IT systems. Mr Reid said: "Doing something sensible is not necessarily a U-turn. We have decided it is lower risk, more efficient and faster to take the infrastructure that already exists, although the data will be drawn from other sources."

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/20122006/344/u-turn-id-database-says-reid.html

 

I keep wondering what your socio-economic situation is because, for example, my brother-in-law and my sister are quite comfortably "well off" and they see this as a means to curb and control immigration and ignore the fact that quite legitimate and legal citizens in the poorer parts of the country - for example - Hackney, which is regarded as the worst place in Britain to live, are deeply affected by fascist police tactics.
In those places simply because you cant afford to live anywhere else and it has a high immigrant population, the police see everyone as legitimate targets of bullyboy tactics. - For heavens sake they even trawl for criminals there which in my view is illegal. Basically just pull people and start asking intrusive questions. Believe me in Hackney and other poorer areas the card is seen as a population controller. You dont see people doing stop and search of some guy driving round Notting Hill in a Merc - you might if they were in a ford. Actually in Notting Hill the police are there for protection - in Hackney they are there to catch criminals - it sems hypocritical and biased to me
All the arguments I meet that say - ah its just another card ignore the fact that the government can use this as an approved list. If it can use it like that - it will eventually use it like that - experience teaches you that governments have never made people more free since about the 1930's
In my opinion government is going to use this in ways most people havent yet imagined and not for the better - whatever good it brings there will be 4 bad things - whatever freedom a government brings you it always takes 4 off you

Insomniac on the loose

Not at all its your freedom at stake I will never loose my freedom by carrying one - you will. I will refuse to carry one and therefore will lose my freedom because of that.

LOL LOL how about this - if things turn out as bad I told you they will - then you pay all my legal costs - just to clear your conscience at not believing me. How will you sleep at night knowing that I languish in jail and yet was 100% right.

maybe but if you are unemployed and/or look unemployed or like an immigrant or have a foreign accent or just look like someone that doesnt fit their idea of a good wholesome person - they can check you out from your prior arrests all the way to your medical records and bank accounts using that card - dont forget they will even have that unless you pay in cash

The logic being this is far more than a id card its a licence to be on the streets

 

Isnt mbworkrelated saying that they think these id cards will be just used to get things like sining on the dole and for when you want a bank account ? That is somthing I dont get ether is why you think it will mean they can keep you off the streets. But on scarey thing I read somewhere is that they want you to use them at the library and when you get a video out.
My dad says that it might affect our rights to keep private the kind of books we read as this will lead to them knowing more about you like what kind of politics you have and then that could mean when you go for a job the employers can find out as well. I think its everyones right to keep that private

 

Good point Rah, the point being that the government is becoming a database stae - I believe their logic is that if the people can demand transparency from the government then the government is within its right to demand transparency from the people.
Indeed if you must use your ID card to get books that will make it a right that is lost -
Just as you have the right to vote anonymously you also have a legitimate right to read in privacy without the government or employers condemning you on that basis.
During the 1950's to the 1980's mi5 took a keen interest in who worked at Britains major companies and people were hired on the basis of whether Mi5 accepted or rejected them on the basis of their politics. This is partly the reason that "Red Ken" the union leader at the British Leyland factory was so prominent. He understood that workers were sometimes sacked on the basis that they had read material the mi5 and the employers believed to be subversive. The part of mi5 that did this operated out of offices in Birmingham. They were a unit specifically set up so that employers could check the political status of their employees and potential employees

And THAT IS A FACT of which I am 100% certain and its very well documented.

We will be given a card that specifically links you to your reading material.
Whatever for I wonder. That mi5 unit hasnt disappeared - it now works with many large employment agencies and the governments own Job Seekers scheme - these people are in the business of keeping dissidents poor

 

I agree that any ID bio-metric system will become the vehicle to totally change the way we lead our lives, as the quote recognizes we glory in our freedoms now, regardless of how little real freedom we do have, come these changes more and more civil liberties will be lost. Curfews for ASBOS, young people and other exceptional circumstances are already in place. Cultural change always begins will little impacts that cannot be really felt until we begin to live it and suffer the consequences.

When is the time that we have to be indoors over the winter for 5pm to curb the threat of terror?

What will happen to the patterns we leave when we stop living in a cash active society?

It's true to think; so what? The point is there will be a time in the near future, unless the whole infrastructure we lead our lives by collapses, that this information will be managed in a sophisticated way that it becomes personalised and affect each and everyone of us for the worse.

This is really scary stuff. It has a greater impact on our lives when you begin to bring CCTV into the equation. I am sadden to be living in these times of greater living standards but more restricted expectations regarding you're work, lesiure and home life. What's more disheartening is when you step out of disussion groups like these and hear the opinion for the proposals to be all positive!!!!

 

At the moment i am on a IT course, through the job centre. I do not have any money, but am not in the 'gutter' as such. I survive. I see it the same way as your relatives [somewhat], along with other notions i have. It will imho [curb and control immigration ]. Nothing wrong with that way of thinking. As long as you do not see it as a full barrier for immigration, and 'they take all our jobs'. That way of thinking is stupid, i do not think like that. There has to be a point were the influx of people has to 'settle', that is my opinion. Not giving communities that chance, upsets cohesion for ALL.

I suspect if i looked into coppers cars, and assumed they were looking at me. Then i would feel like they were a tad fascist. That mentality just does not cross my mind [I guess certain cops are fascist though]. It seems the same way, if somebody looks at you funny in a club, that is legitimate reason to pop a cap in his/her ass. Stupid.. Stupid. It is just how things are though, i suppose. Overall it does not seem as heightened in my part of the world [Midlands].

I live in a area with a high polish community. I do not see them being effected by 'polic tactics'. They have shops and centres all over. Some may well get busted by the cops, just like anybody can.

I dunno mate, i can only fully comment on the area i live in to a better degree, than what i see reported in the rest of the country.

Maybe, perception is the key. Perception is a powerful thing. Even if it has no relation in fact.

Maybe so.

I see what you are saying, but i said earlier. i believe for every legislation supposedly infringing our 'rights' . A myriad of others are put in place to secure them. If my memory is incorrect, i'll be saying that now.

*chuckle* same here.. i just do not have my own computer. So don't suffer the draw of the computer late at night.

We shall see.

I will just be wrong, i am not paying your legal bills for you. What if i am correct, or more correct. What will i recieve ?.

I'm unemployed. I think you speak of the mentality of the general public, and bad empoyers, rather than good employers and the police/goverment. Not all the storys in the Express/Mail are true. Heck not even in the Gaurdan.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

Yes. Plus a passport, and a verification of your ID [obviously]. Imho it is being within the 21st century. Old previsions , brought upto date.

I don't get that either, still.

No, well maybe you can use it as a form of ID. Like showing that you are over 18. Nothing scarey about that. Other forms of ID will not be iligitimate, just imho this will be easier. You have to 'prove' your ID in these places nosw anyway.

Nagh mate, that privelage will not dissapear. It is just a form of ID. A better one than before. They can tell what you read now, but do nothing. Knowing a few more details will not make much difference [regarding the privelage to read what the hell you like].

 

You may ne able to help me out on this. A relative of mine lives in the midlands, Birmingham. She said that just after the 7/7 incident in london with those suicide freaks - some people in Birmingham were just taking photographs near the town hall etc and other prominent buildings - the police took the camera off them (cant remember if it was mobile phone cameras) and/or made them delete the photo's - when people complained the police claimed they were acting within their powers - but since when was taking a photo an offence? Regardless of the situation there is no law that prohibits the taking of photographs outside of ports and military establishments.
Do you remember any of that happening?

Given that the police seem to have the power to ride roughshod over people and get away with it time-after-time how can you trust the police?
How can you trust a homeoffice that seems to have as its sole intent the establishment of police state tactics and whitewashes when they are caught out?

I absolutely believe that the police have too much power and that they are being put above the law - you cannot argue with the police and when they are wrong you cannot hold them to account - so they will have anything they want to do with your data within their power - BTW the government also reserves the right to sell that data and disclose it to anyone they see fit and even for commercial reasons. As they do with the census and with register of electors

I honestly wish I could share your faith in this or any other government but history teavhes us they are all for the protection of, themselves, their business interests, their power, and the rich. They never listen to the electorate.

I will send you a framed photo of me and my new tattoed best friend called "Gus" in our cell together with me dusting his side of the cell dressed in an pink apron - cuz I still wont carry it no matter what a soft option it is. I just believe that at first it will be used how you say then they will gradually squeeze everyones nuts with it over a few years.
I refuse to comply with the governments orders to be a slave to its approval list

I didnt learn those things from the guardian I see them first hand whenever I travel through Hackney - they have a transporter and if your driving documents are not up to scratch they put your car on to it and then crush it - theres no buying it back and no appeal
and they have those twice a month - how about if they do this in Notting Hill and Chelsea etc - why always some poor guys getting it in Hackney.

Also I once saw 3 police cars pull up - they cops all get out and line up stopping everyone - turns out theyre doing random stop n search but thats illegal - they hav to have a reasonable suspicion that someone is carrying contraband or has committed a crime before they can do that. I noticed they mainly hassled young men, and it was so obvious they were just looking for drugs to boost the crime solved figures it was that outrageous how they were trawling I thought about reporting it but then - they just cause you loads of shit for doing that.

 

No.

I see the police outside the media hyperbole.

Your perspective is not the same as mine. I see your's as ridiculous. I suspect you see mine the same way. A 'whitewash' is only that if you disagree from the start any answer that does not conform to your's, and that any answer that does not conform, as being wrong.

You can hold the police to account. If you feel that 'justice' is correct, that is another matter. Sometimes prejudice effects opinion and fact.

It is true some data is sold, i don't like that.

It takes time, i admit. It also takes a perspective that is slightly naive.
but history teavhes us they are all for the protection of, themselves, their business interests, their power, and the rich. They never listen to the electorate.[/QUOTE]I think you are inncorrect. A very class driven opinion, that imho is outdated.