Say No ! To Id Cards !!!!!

A colleague of mine called me an idealist a little while ago, because I explained to him that we do not need leaders. He said that he used to think like that as well, but people, he said, are weak and need their leaders.

If that makes me an idealist then surely that makes him a conformist. An idealist may be a dreamer, but a conformist is a person who accepts the nightmare they are given!

Why are people such muppets? Does everyone still trust the government? They think that they're bringing in these ID cards for the public's safety? Hmm...

When was the last time the government told you the truth?

1. When they invaded Iraq?
2. When they did a backdeal for the Greenwhich Dome to become a casino?
3. When they bid for the Olympics telling us that it will cost an 8th of the price that it's already costing (and we haven't even started building yet)?

They sit in Westminster laughing at us, but, hey, that's alright, because they're telling us the truth this time. Aren't they? As long as it's not us, or our kids that get caught up in the shit. We'll all just carry on working, and then we'll sit in front of our TV, quietly, and if a neighbour screams outside, because he's been caught in a curfew, well, that's alright, too, because he shouldn't have been out. The law is the law!

So, just how far do we allow ourselves to live in apathy and ignorance, before we are brought to the slaughter table? Perhaps we'll allow one of our kids to have both its kidneys removed, because one of Madonna's will need one. Perhaps we'll allow our spouse to be gang raped by the establishment at the back of Sainsbury's, perhaps we'll allow our brother to be drowned in a barrel of shit, because he had the audacity to speak out at a political rally.

But, of course, I'm exaggerating, aren't I?

I'm just an anarchist, or a leftie, or a commie, or a liberal, and I'm sprouting my political dictum; ranting I think they call it.

Of course none of this is going to happen, because surely the police will never wake a Muslim family in the middle of the night and lock them up indefinately on a false terrorism charge! Surely the police will never arrest an innocent Irishman while he's going to work with his dad and lock them both up by planting evidence and taking false statements that will make them look like IRA terrorists! Surely the Irishman's innocent father will not die in jail from a weak heart, wrongly fucking accused by a bent corrupt and a **** of a system that only apologizes when WE... YES WE turn around and demand in the name of humanity that WE ARE NOT FUCKING MACHINES!

Phew!

No. I'm neither an anarchist, nor a commie, nor a leftie, nor a liberal.

I am free.

I intend to stay that way.

Anyone else care to join me?

 

I think i just might. But we have to be active. What are we all actually doing, and what are the possible things we can do to both express our dissatisfaction and try to build a better system. I'm talking about in concrete terms.

 

What are these card gonna contain about us? This is Big Bro here people.

 

I've copied this information from a goverment site.
I got the link for that site from the NO2ID site that Sentient has been broadcasting.

[size=-1][/size]
Personal information
The following may be recorded in an individual's entry in the Register-

• (a) his full name;

• (b) other names by which he is or has been known;

• (c) his date of birth;

• (d) his place of birth;

• (e) his gender;

• (f) the address of his principal place of residence in the United Kingdom;

• (g) the address of every other place in the United Kingdom or elsewhere where he has a place of residence.

Identifying information
The following may be recorded in an individual's entry in the Register-

• (a) a photograph of his head and shoulders (showing the features of the face);

• (b) his signature;

• (c) his fingerprints;

• (d) other biometric information about him.

Residential status

The following may be recorded in an individual's entry in the Register-

• (a) his nationality;

• (b) his entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom;

• (c) where that entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.

Personal reference numbers etc.

(1) The following may be recorded in an individual's entry in the Register-

• (a) his National Identity Registration Number;

• (b) the number of any ID card issued to him;

• (c) any national insurance number allocated to him;

• (d) the number of any immigration document relating to him;

• (e) the number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued to him;

• (f) the number of any passport issued to him by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;

• (g) the number of any document that can be used by him (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;

• (h) the number of any identity card issued to him by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;

• (i) any reference number allocated to him by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made by him for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;

• (j) the number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971) relating to him;

• (k) any driver number given to him by a driving licence;

• (l) the number of any designated document which is held by him and is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;

• (m) the date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.

(2) In this paragraph "immigration document" means-

• (a) a document used for confirming the right of a person under the Community Treaties in respect of entry or residence in the United Kingdom;

• (b) a document which is given in exercise of immigration functions and records information about leave granted to a person to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom; or

• (c) a registration card (within the meaning of section 26A of the Immigration Act 1971);

and in paragraph (b) "immigration functions" means functions under the Immigration Acts (within the meaning of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004 (c. 19)).
(3) In this paragraph "driving licence" means-

• (a) a licence to drive a motor vehicle granted under Part 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52); or

• (b) a licence to drive a motor vehicle granted under Part 2 of the Road Traffic (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 (S.I. 1981/154 (N.I. 1)).

Record history
The following may be recorded in an individual's entry in the Register-

• (a) information falling within the preceding paragraphs that has previously been recorded about him in the Register;

• (b) particulars of changes affecting that information and of changes made to his entry in the Register;

• (c) his date of death.

Registration and ID card history
The following may be recorded in an individual's entry in the Register-

• (a) the date of every application for registration made by him;

• (b) the date of every application by him for a modification of the contents of his entry;

• (c) the date of every application by him confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);

• (d) the reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;

• (e) particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued to him;

• (f) whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;

• (g) particulars of every person who has countersigned an application by him for an ID card or a designated document, so far as those particulars were included on the application;

• (h) particulars of every notification given by him for the purposes of regulations under section 11(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);

• (i) particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to him.

Validation information
The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual-

• (a) the information provided in connection with every application by him to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of his entry or for the issue of an ID card;

• (b) the information provided in connection with every application by him confirming his entry in the Register (with or without changes);

• (c) particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;

• (d) particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;

• (e) particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 10.

Security information

The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual-

• (a) a personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;

• (b) a password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;

• (c) questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.

Records of provision of information
The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual-

• (a) particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual's entry has been provided to a person;

• (b) particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;

• (c) other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.

Now I've learned even more about the ID card I'm even more enraged about it. My husband will refuse to get one, and he's not very politically minded. This is definitely a problem. I don't know how much I can do personally though to help stop this as I'm just a lowly foreign national. I have though been talking to my in-laws about it and telling them how horrible it is and well added links to my myspace and at least trying to get the word out a bit more about just HOW BAD this is.

It is also rather discouraging that in my area there isn't even a group formed to try to protest against the ID card and do what we can to stop this from happening.

 

Oh, and sorry for the double post but I figure I should also mention that if one does not comply with obtaining an ID card when it is compulsory you will be fined £2,500. If once you have an ID card you move and do not notify the government of your new address they can fine you £1,000 per each occurrance. And, if you fail to renew your ID card you will also be fined another £1,000.

 

But how can they do that??

It seems ridiculous.

I don't know how to explain what i'm trying to get across. blah. useless post, sorry

 

I think that is absolute bollocks.

 

All I can say is, if you trust your government's intentions that much, you're in for a rude awakening...

 

Why worry - if as you say, you have been following the thread then perhaps you can explain why I need a passport to travel through a country that is my birthright?
IF YOU make it onto the government approved list and you have no known criminal associates and the secret services dont uncover anything that they consider opposes decency and good conduct, and you have the right background maybe they will even let you get a job. Because that is what this amounts to - a passport to travel internally and an approval list to get all the benifits of society - if you get sacked - how you gonna get another job as employers will have access not only to your medical and criminal records but also your social security records which contain your employment history.
At any point in time the home office can withdraw that card and thereby place you under house arrest - you cant even leave the house to water the plants.
Now if I go to a foreign country - that is absolutely fine I accept I need a passport but NOT in this country where my birth is no less remarkable than anyones even the monarch - we have a basic human right that comes before parliament to an equal stake in the planet.
The government is and should be the servant of the people not its master
this card puts them above the people

now for anyone who objects to id cards see this site and write direct to your MP and be civilised but ask them how they voted and insist that you will vote only for someone who is strongly and vehemently opposed to id cards in future. Ask them to openly state that they will oppose strongly and with a speech in parliament the id card scheme
http://www.writetothem.com/
also write to them demanding they overturn the "abolition of parliament act" which gives the government the right to disolve parliaments and strip its powers in favour of a single party dictatorship
see the parliamentary records of hansard
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/search/?s=%22abolition+of+parliament+bill%22

.

 

HA HA HA. I'm glad youre not in britain anymore.
IF I GO SOMEWHERE OUTSIDE BRITAIN I NEED A PASSPORT -I AGREE BUT WE AINT TALKIN ABOUT FOREIGN TRAVEL PASSPORTS
what do I need a passport for in my own country
HOW BIG DO THE LETTERS HAVE TO GET BEFORE YOU REALISE THE IMPLICATION FOR FREE SPEECH TRAVEL HOUSE ARREST etc IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY?

When are you going to wake up !!!
When they take your card off you and tell you you dont have a job?
because you dont go outside your house without their say so ???

BECAUSE THATS EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE MADE LAWS TO DO !!!!
NOW YOU CAN FIGHT IT IF YOU WANT OTHERWISE LIVE WITH IT- BUT YOU LOSE IF YOU ACCEPT IT !


Your so f*cking right, man

 

join http://www.no2id.net they are the biggest and most powerfull of the action groups yet as they have politicians working for them and a lot of people who know how to get things done - the plan is if they fail to win political support and the cards are enforced they will support breakaway groups that are free to become street anarchists basically
also petition your MP here http://www.writetothem.com/

 

Thank you for the link

 

Reading this thread has got me paranoid. I've always accepted ID cards as a sign of our time and burgeouning technologiacal change. I do not think RFID can be used as a tracking device as it only works within a few inches, so i'm not worried about being tracked and my movements logged. I suppose what worries me is that it is all our ID is in one place and that it is easily readable [not altered]. I've lost more of my things that i'm proud of.. so i can see websites dedicated to posting peoples ID and info. It juts seems like technology is going to be our undoing. I'm not concerened about the goveremnt intrusion.. i do think they do this for legitimate reasons. It is criminals i'm more concerned about.

 

This is the problem though. You are concerned about criminals but the way the ID cards structure works ... you would basically be considered a criminal first and have to prove that you are not ... instead of just walking the street freely and only being judged if you actually do something wrong.

I don't understand for the life of me why people are so easily willing to give up their rights to just be free and not have to prove that they aren't a criminal whenever called upon to do so.

Plus, do you REALLY think an ID card system will keep criminals from being criminals? Already there are places online you can get a 'fake' ID card, and they aren't even out yet! If someone really wants to allude the system they will ... plain and simple. All the checks and balances in place now were put there to keep criminals from being able to invade the system but yet still if a baddie wants to do something they will do it or they will have access to the network of people that can fake such documents.

And it is quite easy to 'steal' someone's fingerprints. So, what if your print gets 'lifted' by someone so they can use it to commit a crime. Now based on your ID card that crime is linked to you ... and now YOU are the criminal with no way of proving otherwise ... because I mean, it's on your ID card that those are your prints so how could that be wrong????


And as a random sidenote .... koala bears have fingerprints that look like humans and so do chimps ... so who's to say there won't be a black market for people wanting koala and chimp paws so they can get around the system too?

 

Its not technology perse' its how technology is used and/or who is in control of it - we can use our technology to spread the word and research more into their methods and proposals. I am a technologist but one who believes we should employ it fairly and responsibly - technology is not good or bad - that is the people who use it
Hmmm did I just hear myself say "guns dont kill people - people do"?
ha ha ha

it can work up to 15 metres away and in a crowd. 15m = about 50ft - heres how it works - a crowd of plainclothes cops are scanning rfid - those scanner machines communicate with each other via shortwave and the electronics prevent each other operating on the same chip twice- its a very complex technology - I will see if I can refind my link on that but effectively 5 cops can scan a crowd of several hundred (maybe a 100 each) from 50 ft away - so why have handhelds - why not fixed roadside so we can see who is where doing what?
I am not trying to make people paranoid BTW I dont really want to discuss possible scenarios I would prefer to discuss actuality- the actual laws are sufficient to enforce that and the technology is there to do it. Its a fact it will happen - will post this first and add link in a tick

Phoenix you have such a good grasp of these arguments that my only hope is that you will one day without coercion take it on yourself to help campaign actively against the card. You would be able to get the point across so well . I too am amazed that the card isnt the main topic of conversation at dinner and in the home. When they tried to do this in the 70's it caused so much uproar in the pubs and bars aand restaurant conversation that the government backed down -its just as important to discuss it with people who dont know as those that do
Of course what I mean is that people just did not accept it back then there was no doubt then it was a bad idea

is that true? surely they can differentiate? if thats true I am astounded - must look it up and if true buy myself a Kaola !

 

a link to what the pigs are saying about id cards
http://www.identitycards.gov.uk/index.asp

They say its just to check your age in a pub and things
but I'm with you lot I think its a way to keep us from being free

 

That type of arguement [ ''you would basically be considered a criminal first and have to prove that you are not '' ], is used with CCTV. I've never worked that one out properly.

If it is ever mandatory to carry on your person, then maybe i would be slightly more uneasy. The problem is we have unchecked immigration in this country. I'd hate to go down a Daily Mail type logic with that one, but the fact is this will help check who comes and who goes more acurately. The services you are entitled to. The list goes on. I've watched far to many dull regulatory commitee meetings on BBC parliament to be overly worried about the goverment wanting to make us all into default criminals. You have the right ofcourse to be worried about it. We all have our own perception.

I know you can get fake ID cards. These have not been tested under real circumstance though. If someone is willing to let some one else clone there ID card. The problem is it is still attached to the person with the biometric data. They will not tell you the full security on these things. Just because of criminality. I could be wrong but i've never heard of a RFID ID being able to be manipulated. Just copied.

If they could lift all ten of your digits. That might be a problem. You have the same issues now. I think if they were able to quickly know who you were. The likely hood would be other evidence would prove your innocenc or guilt. You leave far more evidence than you fingerprints.

Oh come on... I've heard some arguements about this . I've never heard that one before.

http://www.everythingyouknowisalie.co.uk/content/content.aspx?page=content00056.xml

 

I think you did.
I agree with you ''we should employ it fairly and responsibly''. My main concern is with criminality. They have no govermental responsibility . That streches right upto EU law. So i just can't get worked up about a 'big brother state'. Sorry.

It would be nice to see if this is possible. We are jumping to conclusions a little bit. With how and when these things will be used. I've just seen that they are only effective upto a few inches. The most 30 cm.



''What about the technical difficulties? The government claims the new biometric passport chips can be read over a distance of just 2cm, but researchers all over the world claim to have read them from further. The physics governing those in British passports says they could be read over a metre, but no one has yet done that. A Dutch team claims to have contacted chips at 30cm. Laurie has, however, rigged up a piece of equipment that can connect to a passport over 7.5cm. That isn't as far as the Dutch 30cm, but it is enough if your target subject is sitting next to you on the London Underground or crushed up against you on the Gatwick Airport monorail, his pocketed passport next to the reader you have hidden in a bag.''


http://www.guardian.co.uk/idcards/story/0,,1950226,00.html

I'm in no doubt this will happen. I'm confident, enough scrutiny of the legalities will be worked out as well. I think the law will be as best balanced as it is feasible. It does come down to if you trust the goverment or 'goverments'. I do [mine anyway].

 

well problem being I have trouble talking in crowds and in front of groups (this is different as i'm typing and only have to deal with the rejection when i read posts later)
secondly, as i can not vote in this country ... it would be rather hard to make some sort of 'groundbreaking' change if i were a citizen here then i'd totally beat the pavement as much as possible. i have convinced my non-political husband though to participate in any protests that arise from this situation as he is a british citizen and thus his opinion matters (somewhat)

well here's a link to the discovery channel canada about koala fingerprints (i believe the one pictured is a koala as it looks exactly like the examples i saw - when i first heard about this - on QI )

apparently from one website i found it is said that "The fingerprints of koala bears are virtually indistinguishable from those of humans, so much so that they could be confused at a crime scene."

in fact ... here is a picture of the fingerprints of a koala, human, and chimpanzee ... can you tell which one is the human?















give up?


from your left to right (as you are facing the screen now)
human (bottom left)
koala (top center)
chimp (bottom right)


for further proof ... here's another scientific article about koala/human prints


and Sentient ... I HAVE been thinking about going into the illegal koala trade ;-)

 

well once it is mandatory to have one it WILL be mandatory to always have on your person and present it whenever asked ... by that time it will be too late.

and check out the scientific articles i posted in the above comment just cause some website says everything you know is a lie doesn't mean that they aren't full of bs as well.