Revolution !!!

im sorry , I didn't mean to be unkind im just a little pissed at the government

 

The correct wording is "pissed on by" the government.

 

Revolution -- it's an important topic even if one is just talking reformation because it gives an indication what one wants to do with society. This thread is disappointing however because no two people seem to agree on anything. Is there anything we can agree on? Could most of us agree we want a more egalitarian society? Or not? Or could we agree we want things better for everyone? With no common direction at all there can hardly be a revolution or even a reformation.

As for me I say make things more egalitarian while simultaneously trying to make things better for everyone.

 

Yes SDS I agree you got my vote

 

Ok big problem with point 3.

You make wars illegal.

thousands of people protest about things and thousands more join in. Before long thousands become 10000s and 100000s and its all getting out of hand.

100000 people could constitute a war trying to fight them and therefore you would be breaking your own law.

How many people fighting does it take for it to be considered war as opposed to a backstreet fight, 5, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 more?

 

19.03.2006 Revolution have to be in Belarus.
Everithing about elections in Belarus
http://www.charter97.org/eng/news/
P.S. Fuck system! Fuck dictator! Fuck Lukashenko!

 

Ted Kazinski was right. Find a way to trash all existing technology (eg. computers), and the rulers will have no means of retaining control.

 

overthrowing the government is a bad,bad thing.i know.i was born in communist romania.when i was 2,the revolution took place.after 16 years things are still screwed around here.

and now for the logic:

most of you don't know anything about governing a country.lack of experience can be a very dangerous thing.the administration of other countries will try to break your people and lack of experience makes you incredibly easy targets.not to mention the government is made of powerfull and crafty folks,which won't let go easily.

presuming you suceed...then what?you wake up with a country of restless people,a load of problems concerning economy,welfare,defence,public health and so on.

overthrowing the government is not the answer.forcing it to do what you want is.
there are 2 reasonable ways of acheiveing your goals.
1st:get into the sistem and try to change it from the inside
2nd:
organise a nice protest.
now,we all know governments don't care about protests,petitions and so on,unless they're really hindered by them.
disrupting national economy is a titanic effort,so the easyest way is to hinder the politicians in person,while drawing attention (so annonymous phone calls in the middle of the night won't do).
a good ideea would be to get a big crowd (500 people would be a good start,more will come eventually) in front of the white house,"accidentally" blocking ways of access for cars and so on.
if you do that,they'll probably call the police.you need protection from the police.they've got nasty things that hurt you (i've still got some boot marks on my back).protection from the police can be achieved by 2 intertwined means:1.organise yourselves so you don't break the law.don't spit the police,don't vandalise,do not be violent,retreat when the police advances towards you and return when they go away(if they don't,just wait at a reasonable distance).2.draw attention,a day before the protest starts,call several newspapers and tv channels and tell them what's going to happen and what's your agenda.a very good thing would be to contact the representatives of foreign tv channels,so the administration won't do crazy stuff ,like shooting peacefull protesters,too easy.if they use violence against you,scream like hell in the media about how the beasts responded to your peaceful protest,how they abused and maltreated you,how the bloody vampires attacked the innocent and harmless lambs,you get the ideea,take advantage and draw some simpathy.if you can get some public figures (artists,renown activists,talk show moderators and so on) to promote the whole ideea,it's great.it's crucial to make a lot of noise in the media,not on the street.and make yourselves liked by the people.
if you don't mess up and the government ignores you,don't be impatient.turn the whole protest in a peacefull party.get some beer,some music and have fun and talk about interesting subjects.this will help pass the time,untill you'll be talked to by the big sharks.the solution will probably come in days/weeks,so prepare to sleep on concrete,be dirty and share food and water.the chances to succeed are slim.but that's not important;what matters is to make your agenda known and discussed,and make the protest look like a bucket of fun,not a lost fight.make people want to join you,not just for the ideea.and dont let yourselves tricked by the politicians.
also,make a website (focal point for the like-minded folks,ideological refference point and propaganda tool) and promote it.

peace and love,live and let live!

 

I like you, you have a plane and its a good one now how's got the "balls" to do it with me don't just say it do it , see the only thing that I could come up with is to ring the liberty bell and wake us all up but I like your plane better lets do it this summer

 

what do you want from the government anyway?better wages?less polution?stoping the war in irak?(it's a little late for that,people got used to it) legalise drugs?(that's gonna be a hard one,the media,government and mafia will be against it;you need credible statistics,charismatic cases,a good plan of applying your ideea and great skills to advocate for it,you gotta start a big scandal with how the people are lied to about drugs for the benefit of some bastards-doesn't matter who,you just need a disliked target (yeah,that's cruel unless it's payback,but it's politics),and you need precise timing when the government is at a minimum in popularity and people/groups which are linked to drug use are popular with all social groups and ages.)

it would be kinda hard for me to protest with you in the US,considering i'm on the other side of the world...
but if you're interested and find my ideeas useful,give me a private message and we'll talk in detail.

 

Do you feel it would be better if there had been no revolution in Romania? You talk about working inside the system. Could Romania have gotten where it is today without a revolution? Could the same ends have been achieved by working inside the system?

What are things like in Romania nowadays? You say things are still screwed up. What do you want changed? What direction would you like to see Romania headed?

Is Romania highly religion oriented?

What do you hear about the United States?

 

Things are definetly better,but not satisfying.
During the communist regime we had electricity only during the day,2 hours of TV program (when you could only see videos of the dictator,some propaganda movies and news about how good and happy the communist peoples are in opposition to the western vampires),no heating in appartments (with 4 months of temperature under 0 degrees),one in about 10 people were informers of the Security (secret police),no access to other means of information other than those controlled by the communists,food by card (always insufficent and extremely hard to get),free speech,attempting to leave the country or listening to western radio could cost you your life and persecution of your whole family and friends,indoctrination and brainwashing everywhere and so on.
I don't know how things would have evolved by today,but i know things were bad back then.
The country as a whole was a lot more efficient than today,economically speaking.The problem was that the government gave all the products to export;we had giant chicken farms,but we ate soia salamy...a forbidden song from that time said "we grow fruits in many different ways,but we're still forbidden to eat them"

On the other side,your job and housing (crowded,but it was housing) were guaranteed;you didn't always got the job you wanted (for instance,the sistem needed 25.000 engineers;10.000 were engineers by will,the other were forced to become engineers).

The revolution wasn't exactly a revolution.It's still a very controversial event,full of manipulation,hidden aspects and lies.The leaders of the revolution were 3rd level members of the nomenklature (low importance politicians of the ruling class...yes,even in comunism you get a ruling class),so they were inside the sistem.
Things started when the Security wanted to kill a protestant reverend.The people from his congregation found out and rioted.The news spred quickly by word of mouth untill people from several cities started to riot.The low ranking politicians i mentioned seised the opportunity and occupied the national television center.They broadcasted on the only channel romania had,declaring the revolution,calling people to protect them from some misterious communist terrorists and telling them to kill the terorists on sight.This is when things got crazy.The army and police joined with those politicians,they killed the dictator and his wife in misterious conditions,gave weapons to people without discrimination for their "war against the terrorists".Everybody who went to the city hall could get a kalashnikov without even identifying themselves.
With the constant screaming about terrorists on TV,the people got paranoid and shot each other.In the end a couple of hundred "terrorist" corpses were shown,and the "revolution" ended.But this was all made in the name of freedom,so the leaders had to give it to the people.
When the last revolution leader lost elections last year,it turned out that during the revolution,some recruits were sent to a closed airport,to "fight the terrorists".They were given fake bullets.Other soldiers were told to wait at the airport,as a bus of terrorists was about to get there.When the bus with the recruits came,the soldiers opened fire.The corpses were dressed in civil clothing and thus the "terrorist corpses" were fabricated.Sick,isn't it?

Anyway,the passing from a communist regime to a free market sistem caused havoc,the economy dropped dramatically,arbitrary and confusing laws have been passed (the government is planning a tax on rain,lately),bureaucracy is choking every ideea,unemployment is skyrocketing,minimum wage will kill you of starvation,you can bribe anyone,from teachers to pass you an exam to the D.A. to make a murder case dissapear,people are confused,everithing is disorganised,abuse takes place and no one notices and so on,mainly because of the disorganisation that followed overthrowing the government.And the people that took its place were not novices to politics.Imagine what would happen if someone that had no ideea how things worked on the high level took the power.That's why I say leave governing to the government,and only force their hand from time to time,when you don't like how things go.

I'd like to see the people more aware of their power and rights,I'd like to see laws promulgated with responsability and respected.Then we can talk about more freedoms.

A religious person around here is viewed like a little strange.So no,we're definetly not religious.

About the US,the local media says it's heaven on earth,we've got western tv channels so we hear what you do,but I'm kinda hard to get by the media,I know things are not as pink as they say.(paranoia?awareness?does it matter?)
I know you got poverty too,I know bush is highly disliked,I know disregard for the people's will and corruption are pretty high,etc.

Sorry about the long post and the meaningless history lesson.Just tried to show you how communism is utopic and cruel at personal level and how changing the whole sistem can screw up.

In conclusion:
1.I have no ideea if things would have been better.I know they weren't
2.You can change things from within the sistem,if you gain enough power,and that can prevent a lot of trouble and disorganization.
3.Things are confused and somewhat anarchistic,in the bad sense
4.I'd like things to clear up,to have no more abuse,to get more freedom,but also more safety
5.We are not religious
6.Pretty much what you hear;always looking for more inside info.

Peace and Love,Live and let live!

 

Thanks for your perspective which comes across as an apparently honest assessment. It's also maybe kind of a mixed message but I understand that too it's reality.

Not that you asked but I want to explain the reason for my queries. I've always been interested in ideas, what people believe and whether beliefs are justified. It took me years to come to this conclusion but as things stand I'm totally convinced -- each person does the best he can under the circumstances and everyone should benefit from the best possible on an equal basis. This has gotten me interested in socialism and communism and I want to hear what people have to say about them. A police state with informants everywhere and corruption doesn't sound good. But I wonder if a more equal society is not possible without those faults.

Life in the USA has been pretty good. But things have been heading the wrong direction for some time. "The Good Life" back when I was a kid maybe was due to abundant natural resources with a smaller population. Also probably exploitation of other peoples and lands. Along some parameters there was more equality then. I have reservations about the future. Our leadership either party seems not up to the job. Most people are not concerned about the problems I foresee.

(I remember that guy Ceausescu -- had it all power wealth you name it but ended up hauled out in a garden or something shot up against a wall with his wife. I guess he was corrupt not a good person (I'm not totally sure) but it was still shocking. I suppose in this world any one of us could end up that way. Lots of people end up that way. Like you said about revolutions being tough.)

 

Ceausescu was the dictator I was talking about.

The way I see things,the world had a strong socialist tendency untill a couple of years ago.About the time bush got elected.Then things started to get tense,with the Irak war and so on.

Communism was attained by force and it had to be kept by the same means;I think that's why it screwed up.If communism is to be attained by peaceful means,I don't see the need for secret police,terror and the other main faults comunist sistems had.That's why i'm against revolution and sudden change.Things need to be started gradually and with care.But for that to happen,people should be more aware about politics and their best interest.

I am for strong socialism;everybody should be helped to keep their human dignity,but you can't make a hard working person equal with a lazy bum.That's why i find comunism unfair.

The thruth is you,as citizens of maybe the strongest state in the world,have a lot of responsability.The US is a force and thus a trend-setter for a lot of countries.If change to the better will come in the politics of the US,it will have a strong influence in a big part of the world.Something like a chain reaction.

Live and let live.

 

I understand like you say about lazy bums it's always bothered me when a person doesn't do his fair share or gets something for nothing. That was how I always felt and it still tends to be my natural emotional reaction.

But when I think about things and look at them with what I hope is studied wisdom I also want to say a lazy bum will always be a lazy bum (in most circumstances), there's no point in forcing a person to be or do what they don't want to be or do (it usually isn't very effective anyway) and they didn't ask to be made lazy bums so there's no rationale in blaming them. There's this old saying "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

I don't know if you can look to the US for leadership. Projection of force yes but not leadership. The dominant political element here for some time has been fundamentalist religion characterized by self-glorification, bigotry and a disconnect with reality. It's why I asked about religion in Romania. Maybe things will change I don't know. We need to confront real issues like education (and I don't mean Sunday school), energy, healthcare and a foreign policy that makes friends instead of enemies. Well don't hold your breath.

 

Yes,but a lazy bum shouldn't be treated equally with a hard working fella.He shouldn't be let to die or become an animal,eighter.Just enough satisfy his basic needs (except sex ),in case he'll change his mind and become a usefull citizen.

The power of the US grants it leadership.If the US set a trend,like,let's say legalise weed or force christianity upon the people,other countries will follow.If you manage to force your goverment to do the right things,it will be a lot easyer for other countries to do the same thing."Weed got legal in netherland"."Yeah,so what?It's netherland,they're just strange"."A bunch of whackos convinced the government to legalise weed in the US"."Whoa,if the US did it,it means it's ok,maybe we should try it too!"/"Hmm,we should show the US we're on their side.Legalise it now!".Weird way of thinking but it's true.But with the states' falling popularity,you,the american youths,could lose this power to better your country and the world in one shot.

 

In your first paragraph you're talking incentive. On a discretionary basis it has a limited role but not even a fraction of what conservatives like to pretend. Over time (I'm talking long term) you may attach more value to what I said.

It's true people like to follow the big trendsetter. Instead they need to use their brains and think for themselves. I am not a youth (I was once ) but I don't think most American youth know where it's at. Especially young males in this country it seems like all a lot of them aspire to is smokeless tobacco and handgun ownership. Well that's an exaggeration but then again not by much. America is losing its savvy and leadership capacity. And the way we've been headed it's no doubt for the better.

Our posts are getting shorter and shorter but it's been a good conversation. Let's see is there anything else I want to know about Romania? (Not that nationality is a person's only value.) This is a stereotype I think you already mentioned but isn't there the association with vampires? Fascinating. If they really existed I think I'd go for it.

 

I think that if everybody is free to work
then those who will work will share, as they work the global good and satisfaction
those who are lazy will understand they ve to work, it will give them a sense to produce something, may it be carots or songs, but of course laziness must be respected ! (and feeded)

 

its time for an intelliectual revolution... and most people are content with ignornance

 

ignornance is bliss right?