Real reasons behind the "Fatherhood Crises"...

Resulting in a higher suicide rate...

No one said anything about a higher attempted suicide rate.

 

I know no one said anything about attempted suicide. I just wanted to clarify, that women do try to kill themself more often than men do. I'm not sure what the original point was, but if you are saying that men have it worse because they kill themselves more, in a way that isn't true. Women try, they just don't do it right. I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to say, I just wanted to clarify that women hit rock bottom just as much if not more than men do.

 

It's not that they don't do it right. The majority of suicide attempts by women are not real attempts, they are cries for help. They are attempts that were never committed to because those women were not trying to commit suicide they were only trying to get attention focused on the fact that they needed help desperatly.

The men on the other hand...

Generally by the time a male decides that taking his own life is a good idea or most likely the only option left, they are no longer looking for help...

 

of course this topic will dominate any men's issues forum, as it should.

a lot of great discussion going on here, and i'm gratified to see the younger crowd getting involved, after all you're the solution.

some advice: get the facts before spouting "statistics." otherwise, all you do is fuel the fire.

as the older dude, i've been able to watch this disturbing trend develop, while you younger hip-peeps can only know what you see now. at the very beginning of the feminist movement (imo a very good thing at the time) even the most militant of feminist leaders warned about the possibility of the pendulum swinging too far da other end.

equality is the true issue, but because of the pure profit to be made from male-bashing, equality hardly ever factors proportionately.

and, yes, this trend is directly to blame for most of our current social woes.

my anecdotal input, from true-life experience:

-professional couple in their 30's gets married in the 80's
-two sons born within 2 years of each other
-dad sells pharmaceuticals ...huge total full-time income (80k plus perks by the 90's)
-mom works university-level medical research...huge part-time income (30k in the 90's)
-beautiful large tudor in a high-end community, many improvements over the years
-happy and well-rounded household and family, the real "american dream" in all its splendor
-youngest boy reaches school age
-mom files for divorce, why isn't relevant (takes 2 to tango & all that)
-mom gets full custody, 350k house, and 1/3 of dad's income "for kids"
-dad leaves 350k house he made a career of maintaining for his family, moves into 150k condo, lives on 50k with a 80k income. fair(?), so far...
-lo & behold, mom accepts full-time job she couldn't take while kids still pre-school
-moms' new income 65k plus dads' 30k. no re-adjustment of assetts...still fair?
-mom exposes 2 young sons to string of hot and heavy trists, nudity, & substance abuse
-dad petitions for custody many times without success
-dad deteriorates emotionally and financially
-dad commits suicide
-mom (thru kids) "inherits" whatever dad had left
-mom tells me (while i was flavor-of-the-month) "i think a woman should have her children by one man, but grow old with another."
-i get my bad-ass outtathere!!

now, i'm not saying this woman is typical. i'm saying she's always been an ambitious gal who plans ahead.

but...why was she able to formulate such a dastardly 10-year plan & succeed at it?

 

Because she's intelligent, motivated, and knows how to use the system to her advantage?

 

i already knew that (imo, that was way too fast a reply for you to have truly pondered the scenario)

dad was intelligent and motivated too, yaknow.

i'll rephrase- what does it say about a system that allows such a thing to occur?

 

True true.

 

All it says is that in this hypothetical situation (which is a far cry from anyone's reality) is that the system is flawed, which we are all aware of. I'm not sure I'm catching your point here, and I did take the time to read it and consider it. What you are suggesting in your post is most certainly unfair, but I honestly don't know too many women like that, or too many men who wouldn't bother to fight for his children if he really wanted them. Yeah there are really shitty mothers out there and really awesome fathers, we have established this fact, but it doesn't change anything.

But sure it has everything to do with the feminist movement, because now women aren't forced to rely completely on men. They are able to have jobs and support their family so they don't have to put up with an unhappy unloving marriage. I don't think they planned to swindle every man on earth as you depict.

 

no no no , i stuck my tongue out atya because i was being playful. i guess i shoulda said "it looks like you don't believe me."

the scenario is a real one, i watched it all in horror. i know most women wouldn't do that crap, i was commenting on the fact that the system is so glaringly skewed that a black-widow like her could actually make a plan like that.

i swear, i'm totally into equality. but, like any social campaign in our history, it can get really extreme before things settle down. in the case of feminism, the system itself began to profit from things like shelters, but the shelters that are supposed to be for victims of domestic violence will automatically reject a man even with proof of his being a victim. our tax dollars pay for "public service" ads that attack "family" violence, but all they ever say is "little boy, you're going to grow up to be a wife/child-beater." all that money floating around is making things worse instead of the normal "settling down" that is supposed to be occurring.

you couldn't want a stronger advocate of equality than me, but i've been around thru the whole process and it's way out of hand.

the biggest obstacle i see to the solution is everyone generalizes, which can't be helped, and everyone takes it too personally.

i apologise if you saw my post as a personal attack, but my experienced take on the matter still stands.

peace.
augidog

 

I wasn't the person you were responding to up there, I was just adding my two cents. And I don't take anything on this board as a personal attack. Why is everyone throwing that around these days on here? It is the internet, and people have a difference in opinion, big deal. Has everyone here lost their backbone?!


But again, I feel the need to clarify. I was not saying that I didn't think you were for "equality" (the way you see it). I was simply saying that it is not likely that this scenario happens a lot. I see your point that the system is flawed so someone like this woman can manipulate it and get away with it, but I honestly believe that any good lawyer could have protected the man involved if he tried a little harder. Sounded like he just rolled over and let it happen to him.

I really did understand your post and I agree with most of it. My only point was that we know the system is flawed, I think everyone here agrees with that. But what exactly is the point here? Do you guys want us to sit around and come up with ways to correct "they system". LOL, good luck on that. I'm not a judge, so I can't help you. Though, if I could I would.

As far as generalizing, all women aren't out to manipulate men or the system, that is ridiculous, just like all men aren't deadbeats. We don't have true equality on many levels/issues, not just this one. I for one am not a strong proponent of equality on all levels. But that is just my opinion.

But the pendulum swinging, that hasn't happened yet. It has always been this way. What I mean is even way back when divorce wasn't as prevelent, the woman has always gotten the children and the alimony. For the pendulum to actually swing, it would have to be the complete opposite now, which it is not. It has always been unfair, so I don't think this really has to do with the feminist movement in that sense, except like I've already stated it makes it easier for women to get divorced and support herself, but that actually helps men because depending on how much money the woman is making the man would be paying less in alimony.

I almost had to pay alimony to my ex-husband because he was uneducated and wanted to deliver pizzas his entire life and I was intelligent and went to school and made a career for myself. Is it my fault that he is a loser? Is it my fault that he had no skills? I didn't prevent him from doing anything. As a matter of fact, my father got him a really good paying job with the county and he didn't even bother to show up. He didn't have any ambition. He wanted to live in a trailer. I worked hard and he chose not to.

 

nah, cutelildeadbear (i'd love to know the story behind that nick), the way i see equality is by definition. i've actually been a dedicated and loving "house-husband" and it was too cool, she respected what i did & i reciprocated. my mechanical/repair/construction/renovation skills were equal to an income. we were "man" and "woman" who shared responsibility equally. and we were "man" & "woman" in the bedroom, too.


the dad wasn't a close friend, but i got to see him cry when the mom used the sons he worshipped as a weapon, he tried to the point of hardly being able to afford food, he was feeding lawyers. he never missed a child-support payment, had a nice trust set up for the boys at one time, lawyers got that too, & i can only imagine the stress of being an important sales-rep and hoping the card isn't maxed again. in the end, he was being persecuted as a deadbeat dad. i admit i took a bit of umbrage that you would assume he just caved-in.

yes, there's a problem, no, i don't know the solution, except i can say it won't come to be until the next civil-hero(ine) comes along. i hope it's soon, for all young people of both sexes. and for their children, ya dig?

 

So, did you also actually watch this women do drugs and expose her two sons to explicit nudity - or is this just one side of the divorce?

 

edit: it was way too not-fun dredging all that up. suffice to say i've told the truth, and i'll only share what 's relevant to this topic.

i saw it. i tried to report it.

he was as culpable as she was, i'm sure, but she tore him to shreds in custodial court. i know he, & his sons, didn't deserve it.

the system is really messed up, i was only trying to illustrate how messed up. it needs to be fixed, for your sakes, not mine.

 

Who is accepting it? What women? Oh you mean women who don't have jobs or life skills who have only been taking care of children who won't be able to support themselves. Not like my ex who refused to work when it landed in his lap. I don't think a man should be responsible for a woman either, you make your choices in life, others don't decide for you, but it hasn't always been that way for women. And now men are finding that people are making some poor choices for them as well.

You missed my point entirely.

 

just the way you presented your case. I had no option but to make an assumption based on the info provided. His lawyer was an idiot then. I could have gotten him out of the payments and gotten him his kids, and I'm not even in law school yet. I did my own divorce though, and got what I needed to, and they were planning on giving it to my ex who didn't deserve it.

 

i know marriage and divorce is a 2-way street, good for you in your standing up for yourself. lazy or greedy ex-spouses have learned they can lay back and collect. that's too bad in either direction, it only makes the issue harder to solve.

yeah, i agree 'bout the lawyer stuff, but he wasn't an idiot, just a crook, he too took advantage of the system. this all occurred in an upscale financial/political/metro area of st. louis, that's the lifestyle we're talking about, so who would expect any other outcome?

 

Again this isn't about blaming women.


I want to make it clear that i didn't start this thread with the intent of focusing blame on women or mothers.

Follow the money....

The villians are the ones facilitating the process.

 

Then you sadly overestimated the men around this joint because I haven't read so much ignorance since visiting a forum dominated by Christian, rednecks.

If someone who didn't know better used this thread for research, they'd conclude(based on the opinions posted) that women are monsters that purposefully seek out kind(and conveniently sensitive) men, trick them into marriage, pop out kids(that may not even be his), divorce him based on trumped up charges of infidelity, and take all his money to spend on new shoes and hairdos.

It gives a new definition to "retarded".

Most women, especially single mothers, have more important things to worry about then "sticking it" to the dad.

Have I mentioned around this joint that I just had to go on welfare and my soon-to-be ex is riding around on a brand new $20,000 Harley? I have barely seen a penny of the money he's supposed to give me each month and since he won't take the girls more then 4 or 5 days a month, I have to pay for babysitting out of my own pocket when he could easily take the girls while I work my parttime job that's scheduled opposite of his.

But according to the men around here, I'm just a shallow, blood-sucking vampire who wants to ruin his life, right?

 

1. Specific examples within this thread?

2. As far as i know, the topic article and my subsequent posts made it very clear that there is an industry that promotes and profits from the dissolvement of the nuclear family and the demonization of fathers and husbands.

The women vs. men mentality is a ruse that unfortunately (depending on their personal experiences) members of both genders fall into.

 

Erm, there has been an industry in this country since it's founding that profits from demonizing women...actually ever since the Bible came about, women have been demonized.

You shouldn't be surprised to be hardpressed to find sympathy from most women when it comes to the ZOMG!OPPRESSION of men.

After all, you dudes have always had the rights to vote, own property, go to elite universities, and work in whatever field you choose. Your rights were never in question. Women had to fight just to get the same equal opportunities. Women are still fighting to get paid an equal wage for equal work. Women, on average, still make a dollar less then a man in the exact same job position regardless of work performance.

Women didn't even have the right to vote 100 years ago today.

I understand that some men have gotten screwed over with the divorce system over the past 20 or so years but women have been screwed over for entire existance of the US...and for a couple hundred years prior to the signing of the DoI. Actually, one could argue that women have been getting screwed since the advent of the Bible.

Maybe it's karma. Who knows. All I can do is speak from personal experience and my personal experience is that my ex is scum and he does NOT need any advocates.