Raise The Minuimum Wage So People Can Eat!

How about Time and a Half for Saturday work ?

 

I would like to see the portion of the income tax now paid by the employer, paid to to worker instead. The worker gets more take-home pay.
The Worker can then decide if they want to support taxes for the goverment or if they want to give a second look at voting the spending increase.

This is the system in Ireland. It's created a jobs boom. People actually pay attention to what the gvmt spends cause its on thier dime.


:nopity:

 

If someone told you the sky was green, would you need a fucking counter argument?

There is no logic behind this statement - if raising the minimum wage has no negative side effects, why not raise it to fifty dollars an hour. Or a hundred. Or a million.

Except that it does: this would lead to both enormous inflation and ridiculously high unemployment. Small changes to the minimum wage will have smaller changes to unemployment. Do you need me to draw you a supply/demand graph?

Hell, at an even more baisc level, he's making the argument that simply increasing minimum wage would allow everybody to consume more. That makes no sense whatsoever. Consumption level is tied to labour productivity (and capital investment), not some theoretical government minimum wage.

Not only this, but the "huge profits" he imagines coroporations taking from the people are, outside certain select industries (of which your typical shelf-stocker or bus-boy aren't members), are imagined.

Take a corporation that posts a yearly profit of 25 million.
Hypothetically, say they spread their 5000 employees instead of giving it back to shareholders (which would end any investment in the company, but hell, this is hypothetical). That only results in an extra 5000 dollars per person per year, or an extra 2.4 dollars an hour. It essentially comes out to jack shit.

 

So have those negative consequences happened at any other time that the min wage was increased?

And there are millions in this country who wouldn't call a 2.4 dollar pay increase "jack shit", but judging from your response i would guess that you're comfortable with your salary?

 

Is that the whole text to your argument?

Because if you won't put the effort in, I'm not going to bother after this.

Of course unemployment has more than one cause. I'm not blaming the fact that people don't log in the winter on minimum wage. That in no way reduces the causal relationship between minimum wage and unemployment.

 

Boohoo. We are talking in relative terms. Raising the minimum wage to 7.5 dollars from 5 dollars won't be sending any more kids to college or letting more wives stay at home. It's certainly a far cry from the 14 dollars an hour someone suggested.

I'm not against the minimum wage. But the idea that you can simply increase it to make your woes go away will inflict a shitload of harm on the people you're trying to help.

I work in the bush 4 months of the year, and spend the rest of the year at university. It isn't an accident or happenstance I don't make minimum wage.

 

The pro's of min wage increase have already been submitted in this thread, you're the one that in post #19 quoted post #11 with the text:

Raising the minimum wage has never hurt the economy or created job loss

in bold lettering, along with the statement:

"You're fucking kidding me right."

I asummed that you were going to follow that up with some cons of raising the min wage, not out of the ordinary to ask someone for clarification.

You then stated in post #24:

"this would lead to both enormous inflation and ridiculously high unemployment."

When pressed for at least one example you became agitated and defensive.

It's not my responsibility to back up your arguement.



Can you back up what you stated or not?

 

Actually, only 17 or 18 states have a higher minimum wage, and 6 of those were raised in this week's election.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

"let them eat depleted uranium"

 

Supply and demand graph for unskilled labour.



You know how to read one of these, right.

Other Academic Sources?

try the fraser institute.
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/Minwage.pdf (read the executive summary)

I'll highlight the key points for you:
As a price rises, the Quantity demanded of a good goes down. As the price of unskilled labour rises (ie: wage rate), quantity demanded (ie: employment rate) decreases. An artificial price floor lowers the demand while at the same time increasing the supply. This gap between the two is the unemployment rate.

There is also a substitution effect - in many areas, labour can be substituted by capital, thus further reducing employment.

When Minimum Wage increases, on-the-job-training decreases, thus hurting long-term earning potential.

Increased minimum wage also inflates the prices of goods. These tend to be goods that the working poor (who usually work at above minimum wage - the majority of minimum wage workers are between 16-23 and usually live with their parents) spend most of their money on.

Etc. Etc. Read the article. I can cite a million more if you really want me to put the effort in.


And I'd like to reiterate that I'm not against minimum wage. I'm just stating that our economic woes aren't caused, and can't be solved by, simple changes to the minimum wage.

 

Spooner, I must say, that's damn well researched and well presented. And, for what ever it's worth, I fully agree with your conclusion, "I'm just stating that our economic woes aren't caused, and can't be solved by, simple changes to the minimum wage."

I need to ask an off topic question, how many political parties do ya'll have up there in the Great White North?

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

Depends on the province...

Federally, parties that have seats are the Liberals, Tories, NDP, Bloc Quebecois, and an independent in Quebec. There is a Green Party that runs a candidate in every riding as well, and dozens of small parties that have never (and probably never will have a seat). Recently, the Reform/Alliance party merged with the Progressive Conservatives to form the new Conservatives - however, some senators have refused to join the new party, so technically there are still some Progressive Conservatives as well.

Provincially, in BC, there is the NDP (the same as the federal party) and BC Liberals (seperate from the federal party), plus a Green Party with no seat.

 

getting an education raises your wage
learning a trade raises your wage

Making yourself unique to the market is the key to making money. Not saying you need a masters but something as simple as a 2 yr cert from tech school can help you very much.

Would you pay more than the market value for anything? if you do you dont buy as much. Same with jobs.

who here honestly lives on minumum wage? i want to know. The only people know making that either make tips or...hell, i dont know anything. i made it when i was 16 bagging groceries, which isnt a job that should pay over $5.15. It is the lowest starting wage for someone entering the workforce. it was never ment to be the primary income for a household, someone who cant make over 5.15 should start a family imo.

 

Keep in mind the Fraser Institute is considered a right-wing think tank (although our right-wing party is about the equivalent of the Democrats). Still, I believe these points are well documented and true.

 

Also, in a competitve free market, the profit isnt as high as many of you seem to think. Between rent, supplies, wages, insurance, and anything else you see around the place of business is taken directly out of the business' revenue. Most, notice i said most not all, post profits of only a few %. If you cut into that piece of pie, it most certianly cuts jobs. Companies have to keep prices competitve and pay all the cost of running a business. If they profits were 50%, someone could come in making 20% profits by dropping prices and run the other company out of business.

Do you think a job will pay you $2 more an hr and not expect to get $2 more a hr of work out of you? Thats how it works.

 

Thanks, see I've been saying that the U.S. "two party" system is inadequate.
Here's Fraser Institute info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

And their web site: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

We use a single-member-plurality system that leaves most ridings with only a real choice between two candidates - its just which two parties varies throughout the country.

For example, in my home riding of Skeena-Bulkley Valley the choice was really only between the NDP and the Conservative party. No other party received more than 10 percent of the vote.

It tends to stratify the country.

 

I lived in Canada 2 1/2 years in the early 1980s. Loved it.

In Alabama, there are no other parties, Democrats or Republicans - that's it, take it leave it. No other party even gets on the ballot.

Suggestion - do a thread about Canada's health care system. And the much lower per capita murder rate. And No Confidence votes. Might be of interest to some USA folks to learn how it could be.

Oh yeah, and the % of GDP spent on military too. Wake some people up.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

Well Americans will never know because it requires alot of tax dollars to finance a universal healthcare system which Americans definitly won't be able to fund when our huge taxpaying baby boomer population goes into retirement in a few years. America will already have problems funding Social Security when these boomers retire so I don't see how a universal healthcare system will be fundable.

Even Canada is about to have problems related to this.


Example:

LINK

 

That's what those that oppose any increase in the minimum wage always argue. I am not sure it has historically proven true. They argue that everyones' salary will have to be increased to maintain the value of the other employee compensation. Funny how when the CEOs and other management level employees get a raise the lower level never see their's increased, except when it's mandated.