Question to Scots about Scots Americans

Do you consider yourself american or scottish? I think a curiosity about your roots and family tree is to be expected and encouraged, but asscociating yourself with a place that isnt your home and hasnt been your family's home for 200 years is a bit odd. My grandfathers family were scotts and my grandmothers Irish but I was born and brought up in England, that is my home, that is my country that is part of who and what I am, I dont have a yearning to be scottish or Irish, I am just British, you are American.

No offense intented my friend

 

I consider myself Scots-American. I am quite proud of the Scots American culture, and wouldnt trade it at all. Our culture is Scottish, our music and our dialect, all
of Scots origin, so why deny that? Appalachia is like a Chinatown would be to Chinese people, the culture is quite preserved there.

In two hundred years, will the Vietnamese immigrants of the 80's still be Viet?
or American? They fled tyranny just like my ancestors did. Our clan broke up,
chief died and his son went to New Zealand, some went there, my side came here. Why would I not identify with them? Why disassociate myself with our past? The English stripped them of their culture back then, that is a reason they left, so now, just because a few generations have been here, we should become part of some cultural assimilation?

American is a politcal identity, not an ethnic one, and British at least denotes
some ethnic background more than "American" does. I have no desire to be politically Scottish, I dont fly a Scottish flag, or care who is in parlament, or anything political. I am proud of the battles that my ancestors fought up until the time they left, but I am more proud of the battles they fought on this soil.
You are Scots and Irish, living in a culture that already existed, I am Scots, living in a culture (and country) that we built.

Everything here is my part of the country is Scottish, not British, not German, some Irish, some french, but the whole south central area is deeply scottish in culture and decent. This is my culture, I dont want theirs, I just want mine to be accepted as a legitimate decendent.

American doesnt say anything, you wouldnt understand that unless you lived here. Here, american means "white" like we are all the same or something.

What if I clumped all asians together all called them yellow people, or plainly "american"? What would that say of their culture? What pride would they be allowed?

Live here first, and you might understand why I care so much.
Or better yet, wait until the United States of Europe becomes a
reality, and you only get to be called "European".

 

I agree for the most part, except i only believe myself to be American. It is the only title i want.

My family comes from Ireland/Germany/Italy. Day 1 of my family's history doesn't begin when they landed on ellis island, it begins long before that. While i dont consider myself irish, german, or italian i do recognize it is part of my heritage.

Heck, the irish in america are more irish than those in Ireland and we dont got the silly accent to boot!

 

You got your point across very well in that post Heron, I never thought of it that way, if when the time comes Europe becomes one state I will certainly still regard myself as British, NOT european, and I suppose the feeling must be the same for you. However I wonder what my great great grandchildren will consider themselves in 200 years time? British, European or simply just Western?
Also, Australians differ from Americans in that they are also mainly of British decent but most of them abhore any connections to their "origional heretige" they are firmly and proudly Aussey. I am curious now as to why the two countries peoples differ so much in their opinions? Maybe the Australians didnt keep their origional languages/customs/faiths etc when they emmigrated and sort of started from scratch?

what an interesting topic

 

im from scotland and i think its great that people want to embrace their scottish roots and heritage good on ya.


i love bluegrass and apalacian sort of music its great and if that grew from traditionla scots music then i think thats great as i dont like scots music that much i find its always got to much of the fiddle in it i like the american sound better

 

oh yeah i forgot too say great beard your lucky

i wish i could grow a bushy beard like that mines rubish it doesent grow everywhere a beard should yet

 

Alot of Americans come to Ireland to 'find their roots'. Most Irish people just think it's funny. They don't understand why anyone would want to see where there great great great great granparents had lived and all the rest of it. I think as someone pointed out, sometimes Americans are a bit ott with the whole thing and acutally try to be more Irish than most Irish people which they won't ever be because they were brought up in a completely different country and it will have shaped there outlook on life, sense of humour etc etc in a different way. There's no harm having a bit of an interest in your roots, once you don't take it too seriously.

 

haha, irish americans are probably more irish than anyone in ireland The Mass exodus + potatoe famine really fucked over ireland. It is kind of like greece. The greeks today arent the same as the Ancient greeks no matter how much they may pretend. The Irish today arent the same as the ancient ones. They've been spread throughout the world. Sorry.

look at st paddys day! America made that celebration big to the point where everyone wants to be irish for a day. Sure wasn't cause of ireland

let me share a Walt Whitman poem with you...Old Ireland

Far hence amid an isle of wondrous beauty,
Crouching over a grave an ancient sorrowful mother,
Once a queen, now lean and tatter'd seated on the ground,
Her old white hair drooping dishevel'd round her shoulders,
At her feet fallen an unused royal harp,
Long silent, she too long silent, mourning her shrouded hope and heir,
Of all the earth her heart most full of sorrow because most full of love.

Yet a word ancient mother,
You need crouch there no longer on the cold ground with forehead
between your knees,
O you need not sit there veil'd in your old white hair so dishevel'd,
For know you the one you mourn is not in that grave,
It was an illusion, the son you love was not really dead,
The Lord is not dead, he is risen again young and strong in another country,
Even while you wept there by your fallen harp by the grave,
What you wept for was translated, pass'd from the grave,
The winds favor'd and the sea sail'd it,
And now with rosy and new blood,
Moves to-day in a new country.

 

We're just modern day Irish people now, of course we're not the same as the ones back in the times of the famine, what countries people are the same as they were in the 1840's As for Paddys Days, you hit the nail on the head. If you want a good parade, don't come to Ireland , all the best ones are in the US.

 

you put this across exactly how I wanted to!

It's like I consider myself to be English or British. Not English-Aboriginal/Welsh/Scots etc etc which I would be if I got technical about it.

In America, fairplay you guys are all descendents from colonoists/slaves or whatever and like to feel proud of your heritage, but it's the same with Australia and yet they still consider themselves to be simply Australian.

 

the english heritage of Australia and New Zealand is very strong and many of themselves consder themselves ENGLISH STILL and not australian or kiwi only, especially in new zealand.

I dont see why other people care about someone elses heritage. Are you saying we shouldn't feel proud of who we are? Does it offend people that someone might call themselves say an Italian-American?

 

I am proud of both sides. Example. I am a proud direct decendent of the MacAlpine line, through William the Lion, direct line. So why wouldnt i be proud of Scotland? Regardless of living in America, or Scotland, those things are just as much my history as yours. I had ancestors die in battles there, I have had ancestors who ruled over there, i have ancestors who just farmed there.

The only difference in me, and you over there, is the past 200 years, up until then we have the same history. SO because of 200 years, i lost my claim on the past thousands?

My ancestors who came here fled the Highlands, like so many others, after the English defeated Bonnie Prince Charlie. So because some could stay and others didnt, there is more legitimate claim to it?

As to my american ancestry, i am direct decendent of Daniel Boone, he fought in the revolutionary war and discovered massive amounts of land that no others could brave. Damned right i am proud of that.

I am proud of my ancestors who fought in the War Between the States, damned proud.

That is where you and I differ. Your ancestors stayed there, and did what?

My ancestors came here, and built a country.

Fine, be "more scottish" than I am, but dont give us a hard time, because we Scots-Americans have accomplished far more than the others.

 

well said.

 

raised families, tended crops, built houses, fought oppressors, prayed/worshiped and if they were lucky died at a ripe old age surrounded by their grandchildren.......they lived and worked on the land that their ancestors called home and often fought to keep it that way, what greater tribute to those that first settled the land than that?

All this America-Scots/Irish/italian/wotever is just a loada bollocks..... your ancestors fled their homeland, it's culture and it's gods for the "new world" ..... why do you all insist on some tie with an ancestral history, when your ancestors walked away (or ran, i suppose) from all their predecessors had struggled and fought so hard to secure for them?

Don't get me wrong, i think it's amazing that the breaking of many clans has eventually come to progress into so many wonderful cultures around the world...... but i feel it's hypocritical to feel a "connection" to older cultures that your family turned their backs on.

You have your own culture, respect that, presumably that is why your ancestors fled their father's homelands....... anything else is just.... insulting to them

 

Oz, that is what I am saying, we have our own culture. Scots American culture is still a Scots culture, regardless of where it is.

So, are Cherokee indians that fled their homeland to go to Oklahoma no longer Cherokee because they dont live in Tennessee anymore?

It isnt the land you walk, but the blood in your veins and the culture in your heart. If you moved here, would your children lose their claim?

I cant believe that you think we have to give up all but 200 years of our history. It isnt the last 200 years that made you Scottish.

Another thing, I have no more than 40 direct ancestors buried here. I have 5 times that in scotland. My ancestry is Scots, my political ties and culture are American. So i am Scots-American. You confuse Scots with Scottish. Scots is an ancestry, Scottish is a political title. I never claimed to be "Scottish" over "American", but "American" isnt an ancestry. If i am just American, then what is the difference in me and an asian person in america, or a black person in america, or Anglo americans? American says nothing.

Believe me, i am proud of my culture, i love Mississippi, and I love that my ancestors fought for this land. But that doesnt take away the love and passion
that my ancestors fought for Scotland.

And they didnt "run", the left. They left to find freedom. But they fought for it first. Your ancestors stayed, and took what the English gave them. Our ancestors said "fuck this" and went to a new place to fight for, while yours just let the English push them around.

The Scottish today are little more than English in the North. You want to see Scots culture? Go to Nova Scotia, or Appalachia.

 

actually heron, it doesn't Scots means "of scotland", as in "scotland of today" not "scotland as it was 200 years ago". Apart from carrying over of a few old traditions, i can see little similarity in or intent of assimilation between the two cultures. In fact i've yet to meet a scotsman that pays any acknowledgement of americanisation from it's so-called scots/american cultural similarity.

I have no idea, i do know that and American Scotsman can't have United Kingdom on his passport tho'

it is the blood in your viens, and at some point someone in your bloodline turned his back on his heritage...... your family threw away their claim willingly, they didn't lose it.

Sorry heron, but that is just a ridiculous thing to say. Of course the last 200 has had a huge effect on scots culture, and what it means to be scottish today, in fact i'd safely say that much like the rest of the UK, the last 200yrs have done more to shape our culture than the thouasand of years before that! If you think modern scotland is anything remotely like the scotland of the early 1800's then... well, you need to get some history books read

Nope, your american-american. i doubt there isn't a person on these boards can't trace their routes through at least three countries, usually lots more..... but they all seem have a definition of their own present culture ....... i don't see the point on clinging onto the name of a culture you and yours no longer belong to

I just don't see why that love and passion is important to you, you seem to want to belong to a culture your ancestors turned their back on *shrugs*

pushed them around? probably.... but the fact is they stayed, and i inherit all they held dear, fought and suffered for, land, freedom, peace and healthy offspring, they didn't suffer for nothing ...... not a bad thing to do, or for them to know

Your's just.....left, doubtless an easier option. But who can blame them? apart from those who fought before them of course

See, this is what i don't understand... all this "more scottish" "more irish" etc etc...... scotland is a populated thriving land, that has always enjoyed a thriving, growing evolving culture, you seem to be under the impression that their is an "ideal" that makes something scottish. their isn't.... go wander the streets of glasgow for a day, or visit the highlands and drink pepsi at a roadside cafe..... that's scottish culture.... it might not be all "kilts and thistles" and people screaming they've seen a monster in loch ness.... but you'll see it, scots culture and society as it really is...... not some idealised triadition soaked subculture carried on by those who think the entire social and cultural history is defined from one period of time

 

When I say Scots i mean Scots, of the Gaelic branch, not "Scot" short for Scottish.

And you said it yourself, cultures evolve, "Scottish" today is different from "scottish" 200 years ago, but "Scotland" today isnt the axis of Scot culture. It is the culture of Scotland, not of Scots. Scotland as a country has evolved to what it is today, but the culture is spread across to different countries, and none of them are more authenticly of scots culture that the other.

If someone were born in Scotland 50 years ago, but their parents were from Germany, are their grandchildren Scots or German? They are German, but Scottish citizens. They will never be a "Scot", because, well, they are German.

As to "kilts and thistles", I am not an idiot, i know the Scotland has several different cultures under one banner, and that people dont wear kilts everyday. Just like we arent all wearing cowboy boots and hats.

I dont have an "ideal" of Scots culture, but when i look our culture here, and the cultures there, i see the common element. Yes they have both evolved, but they are still Scot.

But, honestly, i give a damn of what you deem Scottish or not, i put no more value in your opinion that I do someone in Kentucky. Just because you live in the political bounderies of Scotland, doesnt make you an authority. I dont know why you are so insulting about it all anyway. You attempt to shame my ancestors for the decisions they made. You say it was easier to come here? They came here and explored wild, untamed wilderness, and fought numerous wars over that land. Yours just took what was given them, and havent fought for a thing since.

I have American on my passport because i am an American citizen, i never said I wanted UK citizenship. But my childrens birth certificates state that their father is Scots-American and that their mother is Viet-American. Maybe you dont know as much of America as you thought.

And i dont want to belong a culture not my own, I love the culture I live in, i have said that numerous times. I dont long to be a Scottish national, or move to Scotland, i love my land and my culture, why would I want yours? And my ancestors didnt turn their backs on it, and even if they did, why would I be wrong to turn and face it again?

So you are Scottish, I am American, but we both are Scots, end of story.

 

"Why is it that i have noticed that lots of native Scots do
not think that Americans of Scottish decent have a right
to claim their heritage?"


I've never seen anyone say that. You have every right to claim your heritage. My guess would be that Scots will have all sorts of opinions that differ greatly depending on the individual.











"Its the same with culture. Scotland has had more influence from England than Appalachia has, and even the Highlands of Scotland, in their isolation, have even
suffered most from English culture."


It may have escaped your notice but we are 5 million people living right next door and on the same tiny island as 50 million people whose culture has spread world-wide not least in your own country (The English language as an example). To say we've "suffered" is one way of putting it. Scotland today has it's problems but they're not all England's fault (some people like to think they are). Maybe 200 years ago or more you could say we suffered from English Culture but not nowadays. Scotland today, what you see is what you get. We suffer more from the weather than anything else.










"My ancestors who came here fled the Highlands, like so many others, after the English defeated Bonnie Prince Charlie."

If you want me to be brutally frank with you one thing that does annoy me about Scots-Americans is their complete disregard for facts when it comes to our history. Bonnie Prince Charlie was a non-Gaelic, non-English speaking Roman born opportunist who was defeated by the British (which some estimates say was made up of 80% Scots). He was an Italian playboy who led thousands of clansmen to an unnecesarry death (before fleeing home) so please don't make him out to be a hero. His English buddies didn't turn up that day, it was a British civil war not Eng v Sco. Were you aware that there was such a thing as English Jacobites?












"The Scottish today are little more than English in the North. You want to see Scots culture? Go to Nova Scotia, or Appalachia."

Maybe this sort of attitude helps shed some light on your opening query? I see a previous poster saying Irish Americans are more Irish than people from Ireland. And while that may be the case with some of them in the north i don't see how this is possible. A couple of things i don't have any wish to see Scots Americans doing. Interfering in our politics and the running of our country like Irish Americans do with Ireland. That's a no no as far as i'm concerned, and i have seen it starting to happen. A so called Scots American told me to grow a back-bone and "fight" for a "free Scotland". I tell this person and people like him to get a grip and stop embarrassing me. You shouldn't dupe yourselves into believing that because we aren't as outspoken as some that we're all dour and don't know what's best for our own country. While some people are talking and lovin' the sound of their own voice, others are thinking and using the head The Scots, Picts, Irish & Welsh are the original Brits anyway. Who is to say that we haven't contributed more to English Culture than they have to all ours? We're all British in the end apart from in Rep. of Ireland. It ain't so bad.

 

exactly.....heron, get your imagination out of the iron age, it's 2006 not 2006 bc..


why do so many "pagans" think they live in the past? their gods don't....why do they feel the need to?

 

Durham is in England. Will you tell me more about the Royal House of Aplin ancestry that you have? Kenneth MacAlpine "Rex Pictorum" (King of Picts) i didn't think there was an awful lot known about him but i don't claim to be an expert on the subject.