QuÉbec Is Now It's Own Nation!

I'm starting to regret posting to this thread... Clearly, having an opinion that varies from the original post in a thread justifies being ganged up on.


WaX, you can think what you wish, and thinking that I have no fucking clue is fine. And you're absolutely right, limiting myself to the 6 o'clock news doesn't give me all the information I need to form a justified opinion about anything at all, not Quebec's independance or the war in Iraq or the state of the environment or the price of cheese in Norway. The problem, though, to your end, is you're the one at fault making the assumption that my opinions are solely limited to the 6 o'clock news.


I do believe I've stated more than once that I'm all for Quebec wanting their independance, I just don't agree with how they're currently going about it. Why am I getting my head bitten off for that? Secondly, why would WaX or Spooner give a flying crap what my opinion is anyway - or anyone else for that matter - my opinion means little if anything.


Lastly - and I do mean lastly, because I think this has gone for long enough and it's becoming pointless, and I'm not in the mood to argue semantics - the analogy I used is absolutely an opinion and not an assumption. An assumption would be, if I woke up one morning never hearing an iota of information about a province wanting to separate and just pulled a thought out of the air and claimed it as truth, which I didn't do. An opinion is based on all that I've heard, learned, and grown up with. Before you start blaming me for not knowing the definition of these two words, maybe you ought to look it up yourself and rethink that argument.


I'm quite familiar with Quebec's politics, not just as some Canadian living outside of Quebec, but spending half of my life living IN Quebec. I've family that have lived there for generations, and some of them want Quebec to separate from Canada probably more than some of you who've posted in this thread, and likely for better reasons. Between the two of us, you're the one who's making assumptions.


I may not agree with some of your opinions, but I don't think I've attacked you for having them. Respect works both ways. If you've a problem with me, be a bit more reasonable and deal with me about it. If you simply don't like what I write, or my opinion about something, you can just easily not read it to begin with.

 

I don't have the energy right now, so i'll make this really short. You've come off as uneducated about the subject, your only argument is the same as everyone elses, and that argument is a complete misinformation. So please, quit acting like you know anything valuable about the subject matter.

 

whatever.

I've gotten more people in this thread that agree with what I've posted than people who disagree, and because of that, I don't think I'm coming across as being uneducated.

It's sad that the theme of this thread got as sour as it did. The irony, I think, is it reflects how the state of Canada is. There are a couple people in the heart of Quebec who feel quite passionately about Quebec's independance, which have been portrayed by posters like WaX, and there are people posting who are indifferent of the whole matter, and there are people who live outside of Quebec who try to empathize with all sides.

When you live life with the mentality of "if you're not with me, you're against me", you'll find fewer who empathize with your situation, and more who discard you as nothing more than someone who likes to draw attention and pick a fight for arguement's sake.

 

You don't know shit about me, so fuck you for that.

I wasn't "picking a fight", i was expressing my point of view, just as you were. And you were bashing my opinion just like i was bashing yours. Does that mean we don't respect each other? No, not at all. I think we can all agree that talking politics garantees a disagrement. To be honest i feel that you were being closed minded about this subject in particular, always bringing back the same argument after spooner and i brought up multiple ones (and that's why i say that you seem uneducated about the subject).

 

There is a difference between "opinion" and "factually wrong" which is what much of what you said is, especially your knowledge of the constitution.

 

whoooo hooooo,

Im gonna get a kickin for postin my two cents here!!!!


k,
sorry wax lovin ya sis, close your ears to this one!!!!

FUCK the ke beck kwa, or however you wanna say it,

they take and take from the rest of the country while the government spoon feeds these people at the cost of the rest of the country

If could figure a way to put the whole freakin province on a boat and park it next to france I would!

CEPT!!! LAST TIME THE GOOD OL QUEBECQOIS tried to seperate and "re unite" with france, france laughed at them...they dont want there hands in their pockest either.

we had a dairy farm when I was a kid,
that was killed by TWO factors, nafta, and canadas habit of passing the wealth to the french
we lost all our quota to farmers just down the road on the quebec side of the line...because there french!!!

my sister in law went to school in ontario FOR FREE because she took her classes in french ...she was always french, from quebec city....I wish they would pay me to take classes in quebec if I studied them in english!!!

so Im all for the french bieng its own country, as long as they pay for it themselves....problem is the natives who control the vote on that issue would never allow it, the french would take every natives dollar in a second.

Im not that educated on the subject, all I know is what I know,

and I know foo femm de chein......crazy dog lady....thats the french I know

well at least Im staying out of the abortion argumnet right?????

 

All major urban areas suck money from the rest of the country (ie: non-heartlands). As an example, my home riding of Skeena-Bulkley Valley receives ten cents back to the area for every dollar it sends out in taxes. It isn't just Quebec, it's the whole rest of Canada.

 

yeah but quebec is not a "have not" province such as newfoundland or NB

they have massive resources that they dont feed into the federal pocket, they simply keep taking.
I dont think they deserve any special treatment because they speak another language.

why has bombardier been kept safe by government money to keep the french employed when other such companies in the rest of canada are facing bankruptcy and the government refuses to assist?

another thought is, if quebec is now its own nation, than I dont think CANADIAN goverment officials should be allowed to come from quebec.....if they want there soveriegnty than they should have it...from there OWN POCKET!!!!, support themselves, run themselves.......

 

Al right, spooner, here, is the wiseman i see. Who are read the constitution of 1867 or 1982? Who knows the original spirit of the constitution of Canada? One tells about "confederation", but that the fact: we have not now a confederation, like a partnership, but a simple and intrusive federation.


Kerridwen, your vision of the issue - I'm sure it's in a good wanting - reflects this distortion between what all we want: a peaceful partnership in benefit of all - and what we have: a central govenment who imposes his vision and his decisions to quebec, and a province who takes lots of place in a country with his differences in political culture. This situation is ridiculous like a bad movie : turbulent teen and manipulator parents.

We can make a new deal and renegociate point by point what we have to separate and what we have to unifiate, for empowering our commune values, and protecting our identities. Like in europe.

Your metaphore is looking down upon us. And its not reflect the facts about politics, laws and sociology. Just be careful. If Quebec ever did separate, this country would be near the 7-12th higher places to quality of live in all the world. So a bit of respect is needed, the similitude with a deficient adolecent is not exactely just :tongue:.

We have some things to getting and doing together, like commerce, money, ect. with contribution of both nations, and we have some things it's better to separate. Where is the problem? Why introduce the situation like a ultimatum "stay dominated or get away!"???

I think that Canada and Quebec are two fabulous places with a strong (and not exactely equitable - but good in comparate to others) commune history, and that we have a important role to play in the futur. First, we have to taking a new, peaceful and sustainable neighborhood.

ok, sorry for my bad writing, it's not my first language.

Blinkin: you and your bus are definitively more funny that your speech.


Go _Wax_ Go:sunny:



om, shanti

 

Obviously it isn't a by definition "confederation", but is colloquially referred to as such.

If you look at our constitution, certain things about the original intentions of the writers become quickly apparent. First, unlike the American vision, there were no Lockean ideals in the creation of the 1867 BNA Act. Most notably, there was never any idea of the constitution's authority originating from "the people". Hell, look at the way court cases are announced in Canada. "Canada vs. xxx" instead of "The People vs. xxx".

Instead we followed a more Burkean view about the organic evolution of society and thus the authority of the constitution derived from it's history. One of the major challenges of our constitution is now reconciling our current Lockean views with our Burkean constitution.

Other intentions of the original constitution are also easy to interpret. The most obvious refers to the division of powers. The JCPC, on most legal challenges, awarded most disputed powers to the provinces, despite the obvious intentions of the original authors to give them to the national government (see powers such as reservation and disallowance).

Now, in regards to the current problem at hand: Quebec Seperation.

There are a couple Constitutional Lacunae that apply here.

If you're really interested, I'll give you a couple SCC references to read.

 

spooner you make constitution talk sexy :tongue:

i really couldn't be bothered with the situation, quebec has been declared it's own nation in writing..it makes them happy so be it...whatever happens from it at least we don't have the issues with the flq we used to have ..with all the bitching they do and have done, i'm sick of it all...other than montreal (and hardly even that) quebec's not worth my time
alot of you have done excellent jobs at eloquently stating your opinions..i feel no need to do so

 

aww shucks thanks jivre!?!

there were three canadians a newfy a quebecquios and an albertain, they found a Gene lamp on the beach, thealbertain said, gene! I want a beer store right accross from my house,
the gene said "done"!!! and a beer store appeared in front of his house,
now it was the quebecers turn, he asked the gene for a 500 foot wall surounding quebec to keep all the english people out,
the gene said "done" and a 500 ft wall appeared around quebec
the newfy, a quite bright one thought for a moment
and then said,
hey gene?
is that wall there water proof?

the gene replied
"yep"

The newfy smiled and said quickly
fill er up!!!!!!

 

Why that violence blinkin?You talk like a red neck.

We are all brothers in this fucking planet, all together dude.
I have dreadlocks of 2 feets long, and in the summer i live in a biodiesel bus or right in the wood. I'm study ecology and biology in the maritime St-Laurence.

Don't feel that bad with quebec things. No one desires to making a wall man.

Are you really partisan for the concentration of powers? Not me, and we just want to rule our own destiny, and making in common what is better for both nations. Like in a real Co-federation, co-location, and breaking down the trusteeship. No war, no wall, no fear, no trouble.

Treat your rage, and let's go to see us, you welcome. Quebec is a pacifist people with a good life style. Montreal is really funny. See by yourself.

p.s. quebecer beers are higher and finer that albertan beer. :H

 

violence...what??? redneck??? that just makes me giggle man.....redneck???????

:H[/QUOTE] We are all brothers in this fucking planet, all together dude.
I have dreadlocks of 2 feets long, and in the summer i live in a biodiesel bus or right in the wood. I'm study ecology and biology in the maritime St-Laurence.:H[/QUOTE]good for you buddy, Im glad to see dreadlocks define you????????

I live in a bus too!@!!!!???

[/QUOTE] Don't feel that bad with quebec things. No one desires to making a wall man.[/QUOTE]
dude the end part of my post, maybe you should read again...its a joke!!!!!

[/QUOTE]Are you really partisan for the concentration of powers? Not me,[/QUOTE]hey man im not the one saying ontario is its own nation???????


[/QUOTE] and we just want to rule our own destiny, and making in common what is better for both nations. Like in a real Co-federation, co-location, and breaking down the trusteeship. No war, no wall, no fear, no trouble.[/QUOTE]good you should pay for it yourselves, and stop asking the rest of canada to spoon feed you OUR TAX MONEY!!!!

my point was why does quebec get more than anyone else????

are you a partisian of unequall financial distribution?????

[/QUOTE]Treat your rage, and let's go to see us, you welcome. Quebec is a pacifist people with a good life style. Montreal is really funny. See by yourself.[/QUOTE]

ive travelled threw quebec many many many times....
I get called a square head by old people because Im english........


I do like tam tam, I usually park my bus at la parc de fountain....

yeah I cant spell french

[/QUOTE] p.s. quebecer beers are higher and finer that albertan beer. :H[/QUOTE]
good for you??? Im not from alberta...
But I am a beer rep......

and trois pistolles is shwag beer

so is la fem du mone
come on the end of days????

bad bad beer, really should learn how to properly age a malt!!!!!



maybe I wouldnt be so angry frenchie, if we didnt lose our family farm because quebec took our milk quota
or if ontario jobs were considered as important as french jobs.....


I have no rage toward quebec.....
though I dont know of any english terrorist groups designed to fight off the french populous...

the current govorner general was infact of an anti english terrorist group involved in several bombings in the late 70s



redneck.....?????
ouch man

 

is it the beard????

redneck.......man ive never heard that one before!!~!!!!

 

I never intended any of my replies in this thread as negative, and again, I apologize for the bad analogy.


Once again, and hopefully lastly, I didn't mean it as condescending, but rather as an example. By all means I don't think any less or any more of Quebec then I do of the other provinces. What I had meant was, based on all the discussions by politicians and political analists of Quebec wanting to separate, it gives me the impression that Quebec wants to be independant by border alone, but be codependant on many other issues, which makes me wonder "why bother with separating?"

Agreed, there are things that we can do together to help each other, and to help Quebec become independant, if that's the direction Quebec ends up taking. But, also, take with you the responsibility, like the province's share of the national debt, as would be expected by any other province. I've nothing against using Canadian governing as a structure for Quebec's independant governing. But, details like the share of the debt, creating your own currency, etc (there's just a whole list of things I just don't feel like writing out, it's endless) is something that the Quebec gov't needs to structurize before winning the vote of their citizens and the rest of Canada for independance.

Point being, is create a more solid foundation for wanting to separate, and I'm sure that such a thing - if it's still what you want - can happen. The analogy I wrote was simply to illustrate Quebec's co-dependance, not at all to imply that Quebec is some spoiled teenager, but rather Quebec - like every province - is a 'child' so to speak, branching from Canada in the parental sense. Nothing more.


Granted I could be interpreting it wrong, but that's just the impression that I get.

In regards to your remark of "stay dominated or get away!", well, I don't know where that comes from. I've never understood why Quebec feels dominated, despite my living there and despite spending a good portion of my life growing up there. And I don't think that's something that I said or wrote.


What I did write, as a few others have, is if Quebec wants to separate, then do so. It'd be unfortunate to see any province leave for any reason, but I don't think it's fair for the Canadian government or anyone else to force them to stay.


If anything, having a predominantly second-language province makes Canada as a whole more culturally strong, and it'd be a shame to see Quebec of all provinces leave. But then again, if the people who live there feel that strongly to separate themselves from the rest of Canada, I think they should.


I do think ~ and again, just an *opinion* ~ that if the Bloc or whomever wants to earn sufficient votes for Quebec's actual independance and separation, then maybe a better plan to do so needs to be put together, and from there they can get the votes they need to be their very own independant nation.

I suppose I'm in the middle of the whole issue. On one hand, I strongly believe in a united Canada, but at the same time, I understand why Quebec wants to leave. I think with a good plan, the right strategies etc, Quebec can get the support they need in order to move forward with their independance. Although it'd be nicer, I think, if it's possible, if we all learned to comprimise a little and live a bit more peacefully with each other.

 

Can the status-quo really be described as "Domination" ?

 

Interesting thread here........


Containing both romantic and rational postings.

Just a Yank, but its hard for me to swallow the "Quebec as Kosovo" or the
"Ouebecois as Palistinians" line.

I dont think of French speakers as 2nd class citizens in Canada.

But I could be wrong
and will be watching for replies from original posters here.

Nevertheless a yearning for independence is legit. The bigger question is:
Is it practical politics?

We can look at the examples of break-ups of two nations created by the Versalies Peace Treaties of 1919;
Yugoslovia and Checkslovaka.
These folks opted for complete independence, not a loose federation.

Spain and Catalonia and Northern Ireland can be looked at too.

Measure The Draw and The Push. What is drawing Quebecois toward independence.
What is pushing The Quebecois away from Canada.

Is it control of natural resources? Will independence bring a reduced regulatory regime fueling business growth? Will independence reduce taxes and the burden of goverment? Will individual freedom and dignity be enhanced ? Will the oposite occur? What about trade, & NAFTA.

To really win a referendum a platform is needed to domonstrate economic self-interest to Quebecios.
Mere paroichalism alone will not win.

The Checzk Republic and Slovakia were unable to remain together due to diferent aspirations and perceptions on economic issues.

Sometimes the amount of concessions necessary by one party to remain in a confederation is a deal breaker to the other party. This was the case in Checzslovakia, The Checzk Republic opted for free market capitalism; Slovakia chose statism and socialism.

What of Canada post break-up? Quebec forms the bridge between The Maritimes and the Prarie Provinces.
Will Canada break into 3 parts?
Would a bifracted Canada with increased influence from The US reduce anglo influence?
Would The Maritimes look toward Boston instead of Ottowa?

Would this situation be good for les Habitants?

Peace and Good Will toward everyone !

Sorry about the terrible spelling.

:bigear:

 

my problem is not there seperation, but rather their own in ability to pay for themselves.....
they dont and will not have the ability to support them which leaves the rest of canada. Quebec has in the past approached other countries to carry there buck france france for example during the past referendum....they were turned down.
quebec started as a colony of france, since then they have become a bastardized version of there original heritage.

most of quebec had been portioned by the english, My family had institued a great part of the original colony, may father is british.

woodyatt's an english family "british lords" are named throught quebec, parks and statues....

my point is they have niether a historic heritage anymore since early in the colonising of quebec. They do have a culture now. it is extremely young.....the quebec language version of french, is as far from parisan as creol in lousiana, the "other" french outpost in the americas.

for quebec to seperate, will cause a rift, the atlantic provinces depend on the western and central provinces to survive...just as quebec depends on them. They would stay with canada, as a union between the eastern provinces and quebec will result in an extremely poor new country un able to support themselves.

so it would be a pointless break within canadas whole.

another point Id like to bring up is the native land within quebec.
quebec as a whole is the largest province, though that is NOT all quebec, quebec minus the native land is massivily smaller.

natural rescources in quebec are mostly on native lands. These lands have treaties with canada NOT quebec, therefore theywould never allow quebec to seperate and take there land which is innevidable if quebec ever does become TRULY its own nation.

but personally I would love to see quebec leave on an independent economy, it would save the rest of canada millions, and eventually billions.
but then we would have to bail them out of there own stupid mess.....quebec has great dreams, without the money , and they will never have enough money to truly do it......all we here over and over is there bitching...

if they do ever leave it wont be long till there begging us to come back.....then later they would start whining again and want to leave...

the history of the french is a lot like watching a child throw a temper tantrum.......

 

i agree with this sentence..

simple thing is quebec relies on the canadian government for money..they were "declared" a nation within canada..that will satisfy them for now...they will never truly "seperate" from canada..there isn't going to be a rift formed..the maritimes will be fine

if this is truly like yugoslovia and checkslovaka please show me how it is..because that seems like a far stretch to me..