Osho

Sounds like Trump!

 

Whatever others and actually myself thinks, I am oddly envious, at least very fascinated, I think they had a darn good time:



They at least tried something. That's much more than most.

 

Yeah, because something new is necessarily good.

Though abuse of power over a bunch of regressed lost kids in a cult is hardly anything new.

UK Woman Recounts Sexual Trauma In Osho's Cult

 

Osho, in line with the left handed path of tantra, has emphasized consensual sex, not rape or paedophilia.

What his so-called disciples have done cannot be attributed to Osho, if it is not in line with Osho's teachings. In the last decades of his life, he was quite unhealthy and devoted his time mainly to his talks and meditations and was not in a position to micromanage his organisation.

In his commentary on Krishna he had criticized the abuse of Draupadi by the Kauravas and had stated his criticism when some of his female sannyasins were groped by some government officials who were inspecting his ashram back then.

Also these allegations can also be fabricated for propaganda purposes or personal animosity.

The osho ashram in question has denied these allegations.

Osho followers in Pune deny UK woman’s rape charges: ‘baseless and have no truth whatsoever’


Osho has spoken on rape over here...

Osho speaks on Rape | sannyasnews

 

There is a saying by rocket scientist Wernher von Braun, " Science does not have a moral dimension. It is like a knife. If you give it to a surgeon or a murderer, each will use it differently."

Same too with a business plan. It has no moral dimension and can be used for positive and negative purposes.

In the Zoroastrian and Dharmic traditions, there are obligations and exhortations to work hard and earn wealth honestly and ethically, enjoy its proceeds and be generous and charitable. Fasting and asceticism are denounced in the Zoroastrian tradition as well.

In the Buddhist tradition, businesses dealing with weapons and poisons, human trafficking, meat, liquor and intoxicants are forbidden as generating bad karma and inauspiciousness.

The US is the world's largest exporter of weapons followed by Russia and France.

The present tragic conflict being waged by these countries in europe could be a karmic consequence of such unethical businesses and money making, imho.

The US also have the largest domestic market in the world too for handguns. And I similarly consider the constant mass shootings there as perhaps a karmic consequence of the same. The influential gun lobby over there is one of the reasons why gun control legislations are usually rejected , ignoring the ethical part.

So business is not bad in itself and it is the mindset that determines the moral dimension of the business involved for either the positive or negative.

As Osho states in the link provided, true compassion would be the abolition of all conventional and especially nuclear weapons universally, and using the money to ensure the primary needs of healthcare, education, food and shelter for human beings everywhere.

I am not a follower of Osho and have a different path, but I have read his books and respect his narratives as coherent and insightful.

 

Osho had nothing to do with vamachara and specifically maithuna in tantra.
Even if we ignore controversies in the same, something just being a century or two older and in Sanskrit does not make it above scrutiny.
Also, that one does not particularly care about consent or age of consent either, and some tantras actually even mention children. Some buddhist ones, where fucking young monastery boys was ubiquitous, describe that. Religious leaders always find a way to spiritualise their needs, and this kinds of sensitivities and legal constraints about treating people as objects are fairly modern.

He is basically the main creator of “ Californian” “neotantra” which borrows from everyone more than from Hindu tantras themselves, the only Hindu part in all that is the name, maybe an odd inspiration or practice once in a blue moon.

In general Osho had a bigger influence from something like humanistic psychotherapy craze of the era than traditional spiritual practices, just used eastern terminology and mythology to make it more mystical and appealing to those lost kids of the post-hippy era still chasing the dream.

It is ridiculous to defend Osho from a Hindu or other traditional spiritual perspective, he is no more Hindu, Buddhist or Tantrika than he is Jew or Christian (certainly not Jain, which is the religion of his birth I believe). He is the quintessential NewAge guru, everything he did was either an invention, a heavily tweaked practice or spiritualisation of poor man’s psychotherapy. His perceived orientalness is similar to how some other cults whitewash their nonsense with pseudoscience ( TM for example) by using “big sciency words” to create desired impressions and associations without the actual content of the same. There is no substance in it, there is no Hindu or Buddhist tantra in Osho.

Not that it necessarily matters, all religion is an invention and constant reinvention for specific needs.
But even if using arguments of antiquity and authority can be questioned on it’s own, they do not hold up even as such in this case on merit of their own internal (in)consistency.

There is more than one account of childhood abuse in more than one Osho related place, I think there was even a documentary this year with a number of different accounts mentioned, trying to somewhat rectify what the Netflix doc did not go into, but have not watched it myself so...

Yeah, the guru is never the culprit, is it. The next step in cult self preservation, if that one becomes unsustainable, is “technology/ teaching still works even if the guy is such an obvious narcissistic grifter that it becomes really difficult to publicly deny”. Becomes old after seeing it a a couple of dozen times.

US move was a particular upgrade of the shit show, but the shitshow in general did not start with Oregon, Sheela and the old junky no more able to get up or get it up.

 

It is his teachings on the left handed path of Tantra that gave him much of his controversial colours around the world. He has given a good account of Tantra in his books and same too with Zen.

I disagree with your statement that Osho has nothing to do with Zen. I personally consider Osho to be enlightened even if others disagree.

Zen came with enlightened sages like Buddha and Bodhidharma, and it is an enlightened sage that can properly interpret the zen scriptures and his mere presence can influence others to live in present moment awareness.

A highly unconscious person can memorize the zen scriptures and teach them posing as a zen teacher, but he will probably interpret them as per his own intellectual understanding and not out of his personal realization. His lack of presence will not inspire present moment awareness in those around him and would make them unconscious instead.

Of course, everything should be subjected to scrutiny especially if it has the potential for harm and violence.

Human sacrifices used to take place as per certain tantric traditions in the past and even the present as well. In the Hindu scriptures like Ramayana you can see Hanuman slaying Mahiravana who was about to engage in human sacrifice. In the Mahabharatha, you can see Krishna challenging a powerful king named Jarasandha to combat when Jarasandha was about to engage in human sacrfice of a hundred human beings. Krishna's reasoning was that human sacrifice was contrary to morality as well as the vedic injunctions. After slaying Jarasandha, the hundred people were freed.

So obviously all scriptures including Tantra should be subjected to scrutiny and critical examination so as to eliminate scriptural injunctions that can lead to harm and violence.

Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah. Non-violence is considered the greatest moral duty in the Dharmic scriptures, and everything should be weighed against this injunction so that potentially violent and immoral scriptures can be eliminated.

Yes, if there are Hindu or Buddhist tantric scriptures which are immoral and harmful, they should be subject to scrutiny and eliminated.

Osho had a masters degree in philosophy and psychology so he was well-versed in western psychology as well and recommended a combination of both eastern and western psychological techniques in certain scenarios.

He had stated that combining meditation with therapy was more effective than mere meditation itself. Recently I had come across an article of a lady who after years of zen practice with a traditional zen teacher, found therapy better in dealing with her inner psychological issues. Now,if she had mere therapy itself, it perhaps would not have solved her issues, imho.

Lol. The hippy movement has played a crucial role in the preservation of the US and western civilization to the present time, imho, and which was pretty close to extinction in the last century a couple of times.

So I wouldn't belittle them and actually respect and admire their efforts for going against the current during a very turbulent period of time.

Osho did not blindly believe in traditions as such and was critical of the Hindu caste system and was critical of some celebrated saints in Hinduism with penetrating insights.He criticized Gandhi for his reluctance to adopt modern technology. He similarly criticized the Buddha for his reluctance in admitting nuns into the Sangha, and the Jain religion for its extreme austerities which lead to a lot of physical discomfort for him as a Jain child.

An enlightened sage creates his own religion, scriptures and uses all tools possible and available for uplifting human consciousness.

Much of your cynicism and skepticism is arising because of western social conditioning and due to the fact that enlightenment is still a very rare phenomenon and not properly studied and investigated till date over there. Philosophies like nihilism, scientific materialism and the scientific method warranting scrutiny and doubting of everything including love means that the western psyche is still stuck in the intellectual dimension of concepts and theories and not the existential process.

As an example, a rose is often dissected into its various components in an intellectual mind rather than being perceived and enjoyed for what it is.

This is an another example of skepticism and cynicism.

Every religion serves a purpose in existence , imho. Even the much maligned religion of Islam with its ideals of universal brotherhood has greatly helped down-trodden people around the world suffering from artificially erected social barriers.

Cassius Clay found inspiration in Islam in his battle against racism in the US after he found that his Olympic gold medal was also not good enough for him to be treated as a human being in a southern restaurant in the US. His subsequent scuffle with some racist bikers found him dropping his medal into a nearby river seeing that it did not give him the dignity he deserved as a human being.

Osho died 34 years back . Till date I have never come across any statement of his condoning child abuse and all his teachings were related to adults as such.

Osho was subjected to persecution in India too as many of his teachings on Tantra were not accepted by Hindu fundamentalists. One of the Hindu leaders even tried to stop his speech in a public forum by snatching his mike and there was also an assassination attempt against him. His criticism of the then prime minister Morarji Desai meant that he was bound to have a hard time.

In the west and US, his frank talk similarly got him into further trouble.

He is dead and buried now, and does not pose any possible harm to anyone except for those engaged in political and religious propaganda as he emphasized individual freedom and critical thinking free from the influence of conditioning. His books are a source of good spiritual and intellectual insights useful to anyone around the world.

And if people wish to ignore him that is also part of their personal freedom of choice. But demonising him without a study of the context and facts are an exercise in immorality and intellectual dishonesty, imho.

 

No one implied something new being guaranteed good.Though many thousands clearly had a very good experience overall.

I watched the allegation documentary using VPN (UK). I was sad for the people abused. It is both unclear in thought and completely unjustified to tar all with the same brush though. Looking at numbers it was around 0.6pct involved in the allegations. Not that 2 wrongs make a right but even within the Catholic church abuse of minors has been admitted.

What can be argued is that his number 2 is alleged to have turn a blind eye and the culture within the organization made it easier for those with ill will to operate.

It is not a justification to condemn all innocent people involved. That is unfair and also illogical.

 

Have you ever practiced in actual tantric lineages (Tibetan Buddhism being the most available in the west - and while not widely know they also have "left hand" practices, including sexual ones)? Not an expert, my practical and academic background is in Zen and some (not vamamarga) Hindu Shakta lineages, but had some initations and practices in tantric ones too, and also had to do at least some basics in history and scripture for Buddhist studies. Very, very different from Osho's teachings.
Wether his teachings are good or not, this or that is a different issue, but he is not a representative of traditional tantra, not even close.

That is irrelevant, there are many traditions in Hindu and Buddhist worlds and all consider their teachers enlightened (though that word as an all encompassing goal often comes more from western perennial and new-age ideas anyhow). It is not Zen specific, and whether there is something like enlightenment, whether you consider him enlightened and whether he was or was not has nothing to do with Zen in particular.

Zen comes from a medieval mixing of Madhyamaka and Yogachara with Chinese culture, poetic sensitivities and verbal expression, Taoism and Confucianism. It does not come from the Buddha, it does not come even from Boddhidharma, patriarchal transmissions are unhistorical even in china, let alone India, as is the narrative about HuiNeng and his "winning over the gradual school" (it was more related to court politics than anyone being more enlightened and proving it through some cryptic mystical BS) - it is all later retrograde reinvention of foundational myths, not even monks in my old order, at least those involved in academia have supported those narratives any more.

Also this "enlightenment solves everything and you are now an expert on everything" is pure cultish bullshit that is used for spiritual gaslighting and giving oneself a "carte blanche" to do and say whatever. Even I experienced my satories and samadhis during intense practice years, it is nowhere near such a big deal and one is perfectly capable of being an idiot afterwards. If you don’t get there after years of practice something is wrong with the practice. That part is not difficult, being a decent human being is a bigger achievement than any state of consciousness, and one does not necessarily follow the other. It is just a direct intuitive insight (though some might call it projection) into some things, not a be-all and-all making someone a perfect infallible being to be worshiped and followed like a stupid sheep. Btw also not something any of actual zen teachers I met ever demanded.

So the criteria is whether it agrees to your present value system? Btw Krishna and Rama were rather violent, non vegetarian warlords.

Ahimsa is an ideal that got into the Vedic religions from Sramana (Buddhism, Jainism etc) sources, so it is not there in the older mythological strata.

Therapy is obviously better for therapeutic work, but what Osho did was very bad bastardization for his cultish needs, some people involved in Pune ashram that were actually therapists eventually left because it was backing a dangerous shitshow.

Great, Osho did Osho, so why "defend" them using traditions of tantra, hinduism, buddhism and such that he had nothing to do with?

It was going on in all centers and ashrams, 12yrs old girls were given contraception (tablets, spirals ), it was widespread and systemic, but it is never the guru's fault, is it?

Sure, never mind brainwashing, dangerous quasi therapy, systemic child abuse (not just sexual, they were encourage to remove children from parents not to be a hinderance in the ashram), poisoning of the local communities, it is always the bad world that is to blame for him getting in trouble pretty much everywhere he went. He can’t ever be wrong, because enlightenment