Open Carry Permitted In Cleveland During R N C

Maccabee · Jul 21, 2016

MeAgain said:

Did you actually read what these two sites had to say?
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Yes. One was saying that there have been under 700 incidents of CCW holders commuting crimes and the other was the number of CCW holders to give you some perspective.

MeAgain · Jul 21, 2016

Hmm, well this jumped out at me:

Research by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) shows these claims are categorically false. Far too frequently, individuals with concealed carry permits commit homicides, commit suicide, or facilitate unintentional shootings. Meanwhile, the use of guns in self-defense is extremely rare. Since May 2007, the VPC has identified at least 29 mass shootings committed by a concealed handgun permit holder. There has been only one mass shooting in which a concealed carry handgun permit holder successfully intervened from 2000 through 2013, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation report A Study of Active Shooter Incidents in the United States Between 2000 and 2013.
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and this:

Rand, the spokeswoman for the Violence Policy Center, acknowledged that “we don’t have centralized data-gathering to know what people are doing with these licenses.”
“(But) anecdotally, we know they’re doing quite a bit of harm,” she said.
[SIZE=.94em]Hemenway said valid studies of the effects of more concealed weapons permits on firearms deaths could only be obtained by studying shooting deaths that involved concealed-carry permit holders.[/SIZE]
But such data is not collected by most law enforcement agencies and not compiled nationally, said Rand of the Violence Policy Center. Her group would like to see nationwide reporting of the number of concealed-weapons permit holders, a “systematic collection of arrest and conviction data” for them as well as hard data on the number of justifiable homicides they’re involved in.
But “the NRA and the gun lobby would never allow that,” Rand charged. “The gun lobby is trying to keep all this data secret. … They know it’s not going to go well for them.”
The NRA’s Arulanandam denied that the organization universally opposes the collection of such data, but said it would not endorse the concept without seeing a specific proposal in writing.
Meanwhile, the NRA and its allies continue to push for even fewer restrictions on where civilians can carry concealed weapons, in some cases provoking charges that they are trying to place gun rights above other fundamental rights.
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Maccabee · Jul 22, 2016

MeAgain said:

Hmm, well this jumped out at me:

and this:
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I was going by the numbers they gave. "Far too frequently" turned out to be less than 700 in a population of 6 million licensees. As for the rest of their statement of course hardly any mass shooting was intercepted by a CCW holder. For one the minimum for a mass shooting to be considered one is four dead and when someone with a CCW intervines its a whole lot less than that. For another 92% of mass shootings happens at gun free zones so no one who is law abiding is armed. As for the "gun are rarely used in self defense" they are only counting justifiable homicides. Defensive use of a gun could be the mere presence of someone being armed and no shots are fired. It could be that shots were fired and missed. It could be shots fired, hit, but only would. CCW holders are not blood thirsty killers looking to kill someone.

MeAgain · Jul 22, 2016

Maccabee said:

I was going by the numbers they gave. "Far too frequently" turned out to be less than 700 in a population of 6 million licensees. As for the rest of their statement of course hardly any mass shooting was intercepted by a CCW holder. For one the minimum for a mass shooting to be considered one is four dead and when someone with a CCW intervines its a whole lot less than that. For another 92% of mass shootings happens at gun free zones so no one who is law abiding is armed. As for the "gun are rarely used in self defense" they are only counting justifiable homicides. Defensive use of a gun could be the mere presence of someone being armed and no shots are fired. It could be that shots were fired and missed. It could be shots fired, hit, but only would. CCW holders are not blood thirsty killers looking to kill someone.
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I know you're going by the numbers given...but they don't tell much.

If we use the figure of 318.9 million people in the U.S., which I believe is the 2014 number, and then look at all reported crimes for that year which is 11,205,833, we find only 3.51 percent of all people in the U.S have ever committed any type of crime for that year. That's all crimes including drug busts, larceny, and driving under the influence, and those who committed crimes with concealed carry permits.

So it seems that hardly anyone is committing crimes.
As far as concealed carry people preventing more than three people being killed in an attack, you would have to site the particular incident and the pertinent facts for me to buy that. For example I found one incident involving a high school shooting. The shooter killed several people and then exited the building into a parking lot. Someone with a gun held him for the police, but it was pretty apparent that the shooter had shot the ones he wanted and then gave himself up to the armed citizen. He had no intention of shooting anyone else.

As for your 92% figure. There are conflicting views on this.

Of 134 mass shootings identified between January 2009 and July 2015, more than two-thirds (91 incidents) happened wholly or in part in public places where concealed guns could be lawfully carried or in private residences.1 ~ everytown
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In April 2013, Mother Jones magazine said its review of more than five dozen U.S. "mass shootings" since 1982 hadn’t identified a single case of a killer choosing a target because it barred guns nor had it found an instance of an armed civilian saving the day. "To the contrary, in many of the cases there was clearly another motive for the choice of location. For example, 20 were workplace shootings," the magazine said. "Or consider the 12 school shootings we documented, in which all but one of the killers had personal ties to the school they struck," the story said. Moreover, the magazine said, the majority of mass shootings are murder-suicides, arguably not involving perpetrators "whose priority was identifying the safest place to attack." ~ politfact
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At first glance, some mass shootings do appear to validate a central claim of gun advocates — namely, that killers strategically target gun-free zones because they expect weak resistance from unarmed civilians. But an analysis of the best available research points in the opposite direction: There is no evidence that mass killers select locations based on gun policy, or that lawful gun owners have been able to intervene to stop these attacks. ~ armedwithreason
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As for your claim about the presence of guns stopping crimes or being fired but missing their target..and so never reported...that is all conjecture on your part...difficult to prove.

Maccabee · Jul 22, 2016

MeAgain said:

I know you're going by the numbers given...but they don't tell much.

If we use the figure of 318.9 million people in the U.S., which I believe is the 2014 number, and then look at all reported crimes for that year which is 11,205,833, we find only .0351 percent of all people in the U.S have ever committed any type of crime for that year. That's all crimes including drug busts, larceny, and driving under the influence, and those who committed crimes with concealed carry permits.

So it seems that hardly anyone is committing crimes.
As far as concealed carry people preventing more than three people being killed in an attack, you would have to site the particular incident and the pertinent facts for me to buy that. For example I found one incident involving a high school shooting. The shooter killed several people and then exited the building into a parking lot. Someone with a gun held him for the police, but it was pretty apparent that the shooter had shot the ones he wanted and then gave himself up to the armed citizen. He had no intention of shooting anyone else.

As for your 92% figure. There are conflicting views on this.

As for your claim about the presence of guns stopping crimes or being fired but missing their target..and so never reported...that is all conjecture on your part...difficult to prove.
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Here's some links proving my point.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate

http://louderwithcrowder.com/top-5-myths-public-shootings-gun-control/

MeAgain · Jul 24, 2016

Maccabee said:

Here's some links proving my point.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate

http://louderwithcrowder.com/top-5-myths-public-shootings-gun-control/
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I thought your point was that people who carry weapons are less apt to commit crimes than those who don't.

Neither of the links you provided address that issue.

Asmodean · Jul 24, 2016

Maccabee said:

Here's some links proving my point.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate

http://louderwithcrowder.com/top-5-myths-public-shootings-gun-control/
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Maybe accompany such links with a line or 2 about how they prove your point.

tumbling.dice · Jul 24, 2016

This just happened where I lived; this is the kind of thing I worry about as more people carry firearms wherever they go. Luckily no one was hurt.

http://www.westkentuckystar.com/News/Local-Regional/McCracken-County/Man-Pulls-Gun-in-Fight-at-Theater-During-Star-Trek.aspx

I suspect that incidents like this will be much more common than people being saved from terrorism by a bystander with a gun.

Maccabee · Jul 25, 2016

MeAgain said:

I thought your point was that people who carry weapons are less apt to commit crimes than those who don't.

Neither of the links you provided address that issue.
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I was addressing your other points. You seem to changed the subject to how often guns are used in defense. Sorry if I misread.

Maccabee · Jul 25, 2016

tumbling.dice1968 said:

This just happened where I lived; this is the kind of thing I worry about as more people carry firearms wherever they go. Luckily no one was hurt.

http://www.westkentuckystar.com/News/Local-Regional/McCracken-County/Man-Pulls-Gun-in-Fight-at-Theater-During-Star-Trek.aspx

I suspect that incidents like this will be much more common than people being saved from terrorism by a bystander with a gun.
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That is one incident. Like I said there are over 2 million cases were someone defended himself with a gun. Compared to less than 700 cases of people with CCW permits committing crimes.

MeAgain · Jul 25, 2016

Maccabee said:

I was addressing your other points. You seem to changed the subject to how often guns are used in defense. Sorry if I misread.
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I thought I was addressing your point that concealed carry guns prevent mass shootings and that people should be allowed to carry both concealed and open carry guns in gun free zones as that would decrease the number of shootings in these areas because these areas are chosen because they are gun free.

Maybe we both misunderstood.

Maccabee · Jul 25, 2016

MeAgain said:

I thought I was addressing your point that concealed carry guns prevent mass shootings and that people should be allowed to carry both concealed and open carry guns in gun free zones as that would decrease the number of shootings in these areas because these areas are chosen because they are gun free.

Maybe we both misunderstood.
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That's immpossible for both of us to misunderstood. I'm perfect obviously.

Asmodean · Jul 26, 2016

Except your sense of humor :-D

Maccabee · Jul 27, 2016

Well. The RNC is over and no blood shed. It's actually pretty dumb to think there would be to begin with. The only other people besides the protestors that were armed were the police. Do you think the protestors would fight among themselves even though they all agreed? Plus who would be stupid enough to cause something if they disagreed with them when all of the protestors were armed?

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