oh.. i thought building 7 WASN'T a controlled demolition.

Please provide evidence I support Bush or voted for him.

Really? Noted sportscaster and co host of Football Night in America Keith Olbermann? Wow Rat, you're really bringing out the big guns, I don't know if I can compete.

Human Rights Watch - which totally opposes the entire Military Commissions act - are neoconservative Bush apologists? The CATO institute - which was totally opposed to the Iraq war, and has also been sharply critical of the Bush administration on a wide variety of issues, including civil liberties, education, health care, agriculture, energy policy, and excessive spending, they are neocon Bush apologists? No. Yet neither think the MCA applies to US citizens. Neither Does CBS news legal analyst Andrew Cohen.

Have you tried reading the act yourself?Its pretty obvious right from the beginning that it does not apply to US citizens.

Back to the drawing board (i.e. infowars) Rat.

 

You guys should really stop fighting with insults and veiled attacks against each others' interests outside of these forum walls.

I think it really takes away from what you both have to say during a debate.

Now, play nice.

 

Keep this to yourself but I think they both get a kick out of it.
If the rumours are true they have been "at it" for years.

 

When you have a situation such as what we have now, where the president is a de facto dictator above the rule of law, he can pretty much do whatever he wants, and this bill (along with the others) sets the precedent for it. You still won't address the Patriot Act and how that has been used against US citizens, despite the fact that we were told it was only to go after the evil terrorists.

You cannot be this naive. Then you wonder why people in these forums have accused you of being an op.

And the reason for me calling you a Bush apologist is that you have defended the guy every step of the way. You are sure good at attacking the views and opinions of people in these forums, but I never hear you address anything that has been going on over the course of the past 7 years. As a matter of fact, all you do is troll and attack people. You've been banned a numbers of times, and for whatever reason Skip lets you back in here without banning your IP.

 

Oh, they sure have.

 

Almost like a love story
I find it kinda sweet...
They both seem to feed off each other and love resetting the arguments on a weekly basis...Even though I think Hispanic has more of a point...it should stop from time to time. They both sound like bloody "ops" to me.

 

I think they both have something to bring to the table, but they have developed a personalized and vindicated mission to duke it out and they've been allowed to insult each other and accuse each other of lying for so long that they are both taken in by each other's baiting tactics.

 

thanks odon! ya i remember hearing about some pepole getting calls out, but never did hear of the content. also this is the first time i heard that they supposedly had a bomb. are these transcripts taken from recordings or are they made from testimony of the receivers of said calls? i havnt had the time to read the whole of the link you gave yet, but somthing jumped out at me right away! how do they know that atta at the airport made or recieved a call from(forget the name) if these guys planned this i would think theyd have the brains to use prepaid cell phones? and i like how it says supposedly! now iether he did or didnt, whats with the speculation? just a question that poped into my head! peace!

 

no problem! i may sound antagonistic at times and at times i am but not this time just curious! peace!

 

So the tapes were never made public, and all we have is a transcript, yet we are supposed to just accept that as evidence? Why? (Not being snide).

That seems a bit weird to me.

 

Well, I didn't say that the Patriot Act in its entirety needed corrections.

Since you are with the ACLU, can you tell me whether or not this is true:

Was the Patriot Act signed in before many had a chance to review it. Was it rushed?

"And a lie, Mr. Mulder, is most convincingly hidden between two truths..."

While most of the Patriot Act is well balanced, a small fraction is not. It is harder to find out where the parts of the Patriot Act needs rewording, and I believe that this was intentional (Not now, but when it was passed). Hidden behind all of the rhetoric about terrorism and safety, there is truth.

Maybe I should join the ACLU, seems like something that I would enjoy being a part of.

 

The ACLU is a well-funded subversive organization with a strictly political agenda that, in actuality, is very much contradictory to civil liberties. That's why they will defend "civil liberties," as long as they are not those pertaining to private property and gun rights.

Besides, I could honestly not care less about civil liberties, which are granted by the state. I care about the FREEDOMS which I, as a spiritual and sentient being, was born with. There is a big difference between freedom and liberty, and it's about time people learn the difference between the two.

 

I don't think that the state grants it as much as it takes it away. The purpose of government was to not hinder basic human rights that you mention by not allowing laws that take those rights away. The founders understood that only the government can take these basic rights away from us.

Is that really true about the ACLU? That doesn't seem to be a bipartisanship to me. All in all, I would rather have the ACLU than not. Imagine if we didn't have people safeguarding ANY rights... Power starved individuals would have an easier time to amass power.

 

I believe most of USA-PATRIOT was written before 9/11. They knew a major attack was coming before long, and they wanted to be ready to take full advantage of it.

The ACLU is a truly great organization. Their documentation of USA-PATRIOT was particularly well-done. While our government was saying that USA-PATRIOT applied only to non-citizens, DOJ was holding seminars for its attorneys, actively teaching them that it applied to all citizens as well, and the ACLU caught them red-handed and posted the evidence- using only the government's own words and documents.

I should maybe add that although only a few parts of USA-PATRIOT was controversial, they were so extremely important that yes, it would have been better to do nothing at all than what they did.

In the case of USA-PATRIOT, the "shall issue" clause in section 215 (IIRC) didn't even permit a judge to refuse such a warrant in the most blatant possible case of agent misconduct. In effect it ordered judges to approve all requests that met a few minor conditions (the agent has to assert that it has something to do with something that they're wondering about which might have something to do with terrorists, ya never know), no matter what.

If you're a federal agent, you can now get business records, business plans, schematic drawings of possible upcoming products, or anything else having to do with corporate strategy. I'd bet lunch that there's now a lively black market for such information.

 

Very nice.

I hope abuses of power aren't used on non-citizens either... It's about We the People, not we the Americans. Everyone's rights should be safeguarded, EVERY ONE.

 

We're going to have to stop meeting like this. What are you doing up at this hour? I'm at work, lunch break... I guess you're just a normal American late-nighter!

 

I'm a vampire, can't help it

 

:cheers2:

 

http://www.observer.com/node/49415

The tapes were played to family members of 911 victims and obviously the airline staff involved heard them because the people she called survived.