National Healthcare ~> For? Or Against?

'ward' as in room with four or six beds in it.

As for you saying that it doesn't happen in the US, just how many links would you like me to post showing people dying in US waiting rooms?

To the MM sicko thing... the same thing I feel about most of his stuff, he briefly hits a few facts on his way down sensational avenue...

 

Yeah, i know what a ward is.

i would imagine that if someone put their mind to it, they could find all sorts of links to all kinds of horror stories about Canadian health care, also, Tom.

We aren't here to argue or get into some knock-down, drag-out tussle ~

Just the pro's and con's.

imho, the only thing i can speak about are my own experiences with the U.S. system, because i've had to fall back, regroup and reconsider the options.

Like i said, i think we are heading toward this, whether we like it or not...

 

I fully support universal public health care. It's a basic human right.

 

Well, and not only are we headed toward it, but we're pretty much there.

What y'all have sounds like an HMO, and i've always liked the idea of that,

as well as having good experiences with it.

Even now, i can't complain about costs, nor level of care,

and what we have is like a P.P.O., the next generation of HMO,

where you select a primary care physician to be your "case manager" and family doctor,

and s/he sends you to your choice of specialists for the rest.

My recent situation was such that i scheduled an appointment with my PCP, however, she was out of town, so her Physician's Assistant saw me. After hearing my history, and seeing the progress the infection had made, she called in a "real" doctor, who didn't hesitate to admit me to the hospital. Because it was an animal bite, i figured that the I.V. antibiotics couldn't hurt, and would certainly have a faster effect, so i was admitted from my doctor's office. (Took about half an hour to walk over to the hospital and actually BE admitted.)

That is the same type of experience i've had with the HMO's, and i really can't complain.

i also have to sort of "give blood" ~ actually, be bled ~ for another condition i have. i do that anywhere from twice per week to twice per month, until my iron levels are back into normal ranges. This proceedure costs approximately $10, each time.

Are optical and dental covered for y'all?

They sort of are for us ~ we pay more, and get a "discount" of like 5 - 10%, which is NOTHING.


A little off to the side of the topic ~ wonder if the decline in our health care system could be traced back to the first HMO's?...

 

No!!!

WHAT A SHOCK!!!

Hey, Ari ~ wondered when you'd put in an appearance!

We're sort of past the "It's-An-Ideal-Everyone-Supports" stuff, and getting into the comparisons, at this point,

so tell us what you feel is fab about it,

and what you would change, if you could.

And thank you for joining in!

 

I have no big problems with folks who view health care as a right. Just make sure you implement a health care approach that avoids long waiting list,deficit problems,doesn't cause people to over consume services and can be sustained over a long term regardless of demographic changes.

 

here are the issue with having this convo;

and yet you think they are in some way more unsanitary then the rest of a hospital...

nobody has to 'put their mind to it' in order to speak of the American system

and yet;

make up your mind please, are you speaking only on your own experiences, or that which you have seen or heard of as well??

The statement of;

makes me wonder if perhaps you live in an alternate reality...

If you wish to argue based on some sort of belief that there is nothing wrong with the US system, then this conversation goes nowhere. There are no similarities in our systems. Your's regularly kills people through either non-treatment or too costly of treatments.

Any comparison between a plan that deals with a very small percentage of the population (ie, a HMO), and one that applies to every citizen including landed immagrants of 3 months or more, is not going to be in anyway relevant.

 

I personally think it's sick that in the USA there are all these health insurance companies making loads of cash when people just need medical help to survive in life. Greed and capitalism is more important than human life.How insecure it must feel to constantly know that should a dangerous accident or illness affect you, you are not sure if you can afford to be saved.

We are so lucky for what we have here. If you have a physical emergency you know for a fact you can ring 999, have an ambulance turn up in 5 minutes and they will do everything in their power to help you. If you need to be in hospital for 3 months, that's how it is. They look after you and feed you and give you constant care and at the end you walk away healed with no thought whatsoever of a bill. And if you need anything like intensive physiotherapy in the aftermath, it's all done on the NHS!

One of my mates who lived in America said that if you really need an ambulance urgently you can expect to owe about $1000 if you haven't got insurance, just for traveling to the hospital!
Is this true?

 

***

:rofl: NO!!! Dude! i'm a NURSE ~ they ARE more unsanitary. i wasn't trying to bait you with that ~ it's a fact.

***

***

What i thought we could do is compare notes,
discuss the pros and cons of each system,
try to get a handle on where the problems might be so that we could avoid them, if possible,

like that.

i am basing ALL of my statements on what i have been through, seen while being treated, and heard from folks that were there at the time.

The thing is, we can go back and forth, posting page after page of horror stories about each others systems,

BUT THAT DOESN't SOLVE ANYTHING.

As an American, facing a revolution in our health care system is a bit disturbing to me, especially since i have major health issues.

Since it would appear that we are going to be following y'all's lead about the National Healthcare, i thought some insights, comparisons, etc. might be productive.

i'm sorry you don't agree.

***

***

Since i listed several things that i've seen that are wrong with the U.S. system,

i can only believe that you are here to TROLL this thread.

Get lost, Tom.

i'm here to DISCUSS ~

the differences, the similarities, the good, the bad, etc.

If all YOU want to do is beat the "Canada Is The BEST" drum,

while slobbering out "America Sux" on the kazoo,

you might want to look for another parade...

 

And here you can dial 911 and have that ambulence do the same exact thing. We don't let people just rot in the streets despite how it seems. In fact it's illegal for a hospital not to treat someone that needs emergency care, it's the bills that pile up afterwards that are the problem. And yes an ambulance will run you about $5-600

But again the pro side of this capitalism in the system, if I wanted to(if I actually had insurance or money) could make an appointment for a doctor and see him in about 2 days. If I need a procedure done I can have done in about 2 weeks vs a 10 month waiting list.

 

***

Good Grief! What in the world makes you think that???

NO HOSPITAL in the U.S. can "Turn Away" folks,

FOR ANY REASON!!!

Also, the Accounting offices are NOT manned by the doctors, themselves, so they have no idea whether you are rich, poor or middle class.

***

i would imagine so ~ the cost for moving my mom about 75 miles was like $800, and it was an Out-Of-Pocket expense, since my dad chose the place for her to be taken for Rehab. (It was in a town that was closer to the ranch.)

About that, i agreed with the Insurance folks ~ they would have paid to have her transported to the NEAREST suitable facility.

Also, i'm not 100% sure about this,

but i've never heard of anyone being sued over unpaid medical bills,

nor even having a record of such on a credit report,

so any penalties for not being able to afford the costs are nonexistent.

 

^
No people get sued all the time for unpaid medical bills, hell my grandmother is being sued by one of the hospitals in New Haven for a $6,000 bill, and that's a rather small one compared to most people

 

WHOA!!!

i had no idea...

(Actually, i figured if anyone would have been sued, it would have been ME... )

i stand, corrected.

 

Sure. Thank you for the welcome Fyrenza!

The benefits of living in Canada and experiencing Canada's universal health care competitive advantages:

1) Single-payer health insurance system is superior to private alternatives, as there are lower administrative costs and better health outcomes.

2) While some business practices could be adopted within the public system non-profit delivery of health services is cheaper and more efficient than for-profit care.

"Education is only one reason Toyota chose Ontario. Canada's other big selling point is its national health insurance system, which saves auto manufacturers large sums in benefit payments compared with their costs in the United States."
- Paul Krugman, Prof. of Economics, Princeton University & Columnist, New York Times

Like I've said in another thread about GM's Legacy Payments, one of the many reasons why GM is struggling is because of retiree health care benefits costs in the USA. The amount that GM is paying for the health care of people that don't even work for them anymore, is over-bearing and overwhelming a for-profit health care system. It just costs more.

The fact that Canadian companies - large and small - don't have to offer basic health benefits to compete for the best talent and the most productive workers explains to a large extent why were are competitive in the NAFTA era, despite a dollar parity with the U.S.

3) Business taxes to provide health care in Canada are much lower than health care premium contributions for U.S. businesses.

Like I said, for-profit systems just costs more.

4) Privatization proponents argue that since health care is so important, people should be able to purchase private insurance to pay for better care. They claim that allowing parallel private insurance would decrease demands in the public system.

The truth is private insurance provides greater health care access and choice for the few who can afford it, but not for the majority. In countries with two-tier systems, only a relatively small percentage of the population holds private health insurance; such is the case with the overwhelming number of people in the U.S. who have none. For the rest, access is limited, for a number of reasons. Either people can't afford the premiums, they don't qualify due to pre-existing conditions, they face higher premiums for these conditions, or they can't afford high out-of-pocket costs such as deductibles and co-payments.

And since private insurance is only beneficial if it co-exists with a parallel private system, there is a negative impact for the public system. Doctors, nurses, and other health care professionals are drawn away from the public system to the private, for-profit system, reducing the public system's capacity for the rest of us.

Comparisons? Okay.

5) U.S. Medicare system is a bizzare mélange of thousands of payers with payment systems that differ for no socially beneficial reason, and there is a staggering complex public system with mind-boggling administered prices and other rules expressing distinctions that can only be regarded as "weird".

U.S. health insurance system is so complex that most hospitals have large departments to manage claims to different individual, employer-based or government-funded insurance programs. (Canadians, can you imagine going back to the hospital to check in a with a case-worker for a claim you submitted for a re-imbursement with Green Shield, Great West Life, ManuLife, Sun Life, Blue Cross, etc. when you broke your leg 3 months ago?)

"The costs of health insurance premiums per employee in the U.S. is about $350 per month for single coverage and almost $1,000 a month for family coverage. Employees typically pay about 10 per cent of their coverage.

Assuming a full cost-recovery, each Canadian pays about $190 in monthly premiums for 4 of the health care system expenditures (hospitals, physisicans, capital expenditures and administration). For a similar insurance (with no deductible, user fees or co-insurance) Americans have to fork over $1,000 per month to a private insurer - provided they qualify for insurance."

- (CIHI) Canadian Institute for Health Information & Kaiser Family Foundation in the U.S., data. From the Council of Canadians.

6) Costs and quality comparisons from the same source^^:

Lifetime Maximum benefits? U.S. = Usually set @ a max. of $1 million - $5 million / Canada = NO LIMIT
Coinsurance? (the percentage of medical expenditure paid by patient) U.S. = Coinsurance of between 10%-50% is the norm. / Canada = NONE
Copayments? (User fee applied to some medical acts) U.S. = copayments are frequent for drugs and medical visits. / Canada = NONE
Deductibles? U.S. = From no deductible (premium) to $10,000/yr. / Canada = NONE
Routine tests and procedures? (like immunization, colonoscopy, blood tests, urine tests, mammography, etc.) U.S. = Copayments are often required. / Canada = 100% COVERED
Maternity costs? U.S. = From no deductible (premium) to $10,000/yr. / Canada 100% COVERED
Clinical diagnosis, treatment and therapies? (stroke, heart attack, Autism, etc.) U.S. = Copayments are often required. / Canada = 100% COVERED

 

You totally missed the whole point of what I said...

they may be 'more' unsanitary then the rest of the hospital, but the entire hospital is nothing but an incubator and spreader for diseases in the first place.

As a nurse, one would think you would understand this very simple concept...

You were not discussing anything based in the reality we live in.

and as for you not liking my opinion...

too fucking bad for you...

 

Public health care is sustainable, affordable, universal, it delivers quality care, fair wages, effective treatment options, and wait times are manageable.

Why wouldn't you want that kind of health care for your children?

 

That's just it ~

WE DO!!!

And it would appear that the major problem with the U.S. system is the flippin' middlefolks, who just add to the bottom line costs.

Sad, sad, 'cuz the U.S. has just about turned into a nation of MiddlePeople...

Ari? Are the costs for the citizenry based on income,

and are they taken out all during the year?

What percentage do y'all pay? For us, i need to add the Medicare Tax to the insurance premiums, as well as the Flex card payments, but i would imagine your number is going to be lower.

Are there options for Optical and Dental coverage? (REAL options, not some bogus discount that we get)

i would imagine that wait times are dependent upon where you live, and which hospital you use, just like here ~ the larger the city, the more horror stories.

 

***

And as a lay-person with a holier-than-thou attitude,

one would think you'd have enough sense not to argue with someone that knows from whence they speak.

As an intelligent, erudite person, one would think you would understand this very simple concept...

{raspberry sounds in background}

The reason i say it is less sanitary is because:

1) Many diseases and bacteria are airborne ~ the more sick folks you put together, the more chances there are for cross-contamination;

2) Nosicomial infections are generally caused by a staph virus, and it is not unheard of for a certain strain to become antibiotic resistant, making it a life-threatening disease;

3) The nurses in a ward are going from one patient to the next, and should an emergency arise, i rather doubt that the nurse would have time to wash their hands and re-glove before handling the sitch;

4) i presume that a ward shares a bathroom, and i can't imagine that y'all have janitors standing by to clean the shower after every use, not to speak of the toilet;

5) Someone like me, that has a contagious disease (HepC) which is transferred, live blood to live blood/open wound, would certainly be considered healthy enough for a ward, but the danger of contagion in that venue would drastically increase;

6) Visitors would be coming and going, multiplying the chances of cross-contamination, not only from patient to patient, but from themselves to the patients;

need i go on? 'Cuz this is sort of boring...

Oh! And here in the U.S.? EVERY ROOM has a canister of antibacterial foam at the door, and at the sink, along with a shelf for 3 different sizes of gloves. When you walk in the hospital, there are canisters at the entry doors, along with face masks, to protect patients and/or visitors. Along the hallways, there are more canisters of the stuff.

Each room is throughly cleaned, while the patient is out (preferably) at least once per day. The rest of the hospital is cleaned twice per day.

If you truly believe that a hospital is just a breeding ground for disease, you haven't been to very many clean hospitals...

 

Nationalized healthcare.---All the premier(top) countries in the world have it except America. Are all those countries wrong and America right,or is it the reverse ,those countries do it right and America does it wrong.--The answer-- Amercia does it wrong.What used to work in the US simply does not anymore.--But hey the insurance companies that advertise in between prescription drug commercials on US tv will of course not agree with me.

 

You should visit the BBC news site and Canadian CBC site to read up on these health care systems. Managing and funding these systems are more complicated than many American UHC advocates realize.

BBC NEWS | Health | Why are there mounting NHS debts?